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Editor [∞]
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TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 7:10 PM
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All-In [25116]
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The best choice of the 3 finalists I think
Apr 12, 2018, 7:17 PM
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The power 5 experience will be valuable to our program as she will at least have a taste of what she is up against. I am just hoping that we can have a winning season sometime soon and maybe an actual NCAA tournament appearance at some point?
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: The best choice of the 3 finalists I think
Apr 12, 2018, 8:44 PM
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At least we hired a purdy one .................
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All-In [27366]
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And looks good in Orange
Apr 12, 2018, 8:54 PM
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even if it's the wrong orange.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: The best choice of the 3 finalists I think
Apr 13, 2018, 12:22 AM
[ in reply to Re: The best choice of the 3 finalists I think ] |
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Who were our other finalists? I know Elon’s coach Smith was on campus, but who else made the top choices?
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All-In [44121]
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She seems like a great hire.
Apr 12, 2018, 7:22 PM
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I might be wrong, but I don’t think we have ever hired a women’s basketball coach with power 5 head coaching experience. She did pretty well at Florida so she knows ACC level competition.
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All-In [26211]
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Re: She seems like a great hire.
Apr 12, 2018, 7:29 PM
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Being able to recruit good players to Clemson will be her obvious hurdle.
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All-In [44121]
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I agree. Hopefully her strong ties to the Southeast
Apr 12, 2018, 8:41 PM
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will help. I would assume that the low hanging fruit are players from our region who are familiar with Clemson and want to play in the ACC.
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Orange Blooded [3832]
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Re: She seems like a great hire.
Apr 12, 2018, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: She seems like a great hire. ] |
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We’ve has a horrible decade plus in WBB. Before that we had a good tradition. WBB can certainly succeed at Clemson.
And, Coach Butler will be have the best facility to recruit to in the history of Clemson basketball.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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I'm confused ...
Apr 12, 2018, 7:38 PM
[ in reply to She seems like a great hire. ] |
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Butler went 71-85 in SEC action at Florida before she was fired after a 15-16 (5-11 SEC) campaign in the 2016-17 season.
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CU Guru [1697]
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you're not confused, and you are literate...
Apr 12, 2018, 7:53 PM
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I read that and had to think twice before realizing it wasn't my comprehension that was lacking... there must be some slim pickings in the women's head coaching game these days... but if DRad is confident in the hire, i'll go with it for now...
Message was edited by: Knuck®
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All-In [44121]
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She is a great hire by Clemson women's basketball standards.
Apr 12, 2018, 8:49 PM
[ in reply to I'm confused ... ] |
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She has been a head coach at a power five school, and took them to the postseason 4 out of her 8 years there, including NCAA appearances.
Let's compare that to our other women's basketball coaches and where they came from.
Annie Tribble was hired away from Anderson College.
Jim Davis was hired away from Middle Tennessee State.
Cristy McKinney was hired away from Rice.
Itoro Umoh-Coleman had no head coaching experience when we hired her.
Audra Smith had been a head coach at UAB prior to becoming our head coach.
As you can see, Clemson has zero history of hiring an accomplished power five head coach to be its women's head basketball coach. All we have ever done is hire coaches from lesser levels of competition, and quite frankly, that hasn't worked very well.
No, Butler didn't make the NCAA Tournament every year at Florida, but she has at least coached on the power five level and had some success. It makes sense to me to hire someone who has pertinent experience, rather than someone who does not and hoping that they can figure it out at Clemson.
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All-In [44121]
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Correction: postseason 8 of 10 seasons and NCAA 4 of those.***
Apr 12, 2018, 8:50 PM
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CU Guru [1697]
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why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 12, 2018, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to She is a great hire by Clemson women's basketball standards. ] |
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my take is that this Clemson standard that you speak of needs to change...
this just seems like DRad went down to the unemployment office and made a hire, because she has been unemployed for a year after not being successful and not considered right for the job at UF. we all laughed at the coots for hiring Muschamp as Florida fired leftovers, now we hire Florida fired leftovers... there is just as much reason to doubt that she is going to improve things as there is to hope that she will improve things...
I hope that she does, but if I have to make a bet, i'm betting she doesn't and we get more of the same...
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Mascot [20]
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Apples and oranges
Apr 12, 2018, 9:09 PM
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If she can do the same or better at Clemson, she will be more successful than most every coach we ever had.
Rolling Muschamp in there is a terrible attempt at comparison. Football and women's basketball don't belong in the same discussion.
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CU Guru [1697]
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opinions are like... what?
Apr 12, 2018, 9:23 PM
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no, she can't just do what Jim Davis did and be the best we've ever had, and at this point, I don't believe that she will be as successful as Davis was... but that's my perspective.
but as far as the apple and oranges go, only the sports are different... take the game out of it and the firing and hiring are analogous... we are discussing head coaching jobs...
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: opinions are like... what?
Apr 12, 2018, 9:40 PM
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An opinion is one thing, but from I read Coach Butler purposely stayed out of any coaching after her dismissal from UF to carefully consider her options and await the right opportunity. That doesn’t sound like shortsightedness to me!
I know of no perfect person and based upon where she coached and her overall record I believe she at age 46 will approach and appreciate the job at Clemson with a new sense of where she succeeded, and if smart, where she failed. Tiger fans need to give she space and time to ##### the program and start a process. Success won’t come easily, but the right staff, solid recruiting and Clemson itself should be the elements needed to turn matters around over the next half dozen seasons at most.
Go Tigers and good work ahead Coach Butler!
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Mascot [20]
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Ed Zachery
Apr 12, 2018, 9:42 PM
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A guy taught me that earlier today.
'I agree' is the meaning, I think.
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CU Guru [1697]
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great for her to take a step back and make evaluations
Apr 12, 2018, 9:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: opinions are like... what? ] |
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but I actually echoed this sentiment in a different way earlier...
"but if DRad is confident in the hire, i'll go with it for now..."
at this point, only DRad's evaluation matters and he's done ok so far overall
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Mascot [20]
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The hiring of coaches for football and women's basketball.
Apr 12, 2018, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to opinions are like... what? ] |
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Not even remotely comparable.
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CU Guru [1697]
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if they are not remotely comparable,
Apr 12, 2018, 9:54 PM
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what are the differences besides the obvious in gender and sport?
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Hall of Famer [20109]
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The importance?***
Apr 13, 2018, 12:27 AM
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CU Guru [1697]
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Re: The importance?***
Apr 13, 2018, 1:59 AM
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All of the hires an AD makes are important and equally so if the AD operated with integrity and without favoritism.
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Orange Blooded [2137]
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Re: The importance?***
Apr 13, 2018, 2:21 AM
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You couldn't be more wrong. How many times has an AD been fired for hiring the wrong women's basketball coach? If an AD makes bad hires in football he loses his job. So I'd say importance was the right answer here.
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CU Guru [1697]
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So, you don't think it's important enough to hire
Apr 13, 2018, 2:37 AM
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the right coach to compete for championships?? You should interview for an AD job and tell the board that you won't be as focused on hiring a women's bball coach, track coach, or golf coach because those jobs aren't as important as hiring a football coach... I bet you won't get that job... Look at what hiring the right coach has done for UConn, Notre Dame, Stanford, Miss State and usuck... It's shortsighted to only focus on football when you have a full athletic department. If you're not going to make each hire the best that it can be, you are wasting money that could be spent elsewhere.
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All-In [44121]
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How do you know she isn't the right coach for us?!?
Apr 14, 2018, 10:57 AM
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She has a great background in terms of her playing career and coaching career. She has coached in a power 5 conference and made the postseason 8 of her 10 years there. Four of those tournaments were NCAAs. She did not inherit a powerhouse program at Florida either.
Clemson has never hired a women's basketball coach with power five head coaching experience. I would much rather us hire someone who has proven she can win at a school like Florida, as opposed to someone who has won big at a smaller school. Or worse, not really won much at a smaller school like some of our recent hires.
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All-In [38452]
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CU Medallion [55695]
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Re: The hiring of coaches for football and women's basketball.
Apr 12, 2018, 11:35 PM
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Yep, you are right bc, their's is packed up in the trunk, and our's are just hanging loose!!!
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110%er [6692]
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Didn't you mention comprehension?
Apr 13, 2018, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to opinions are like... what? ] |
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The poster said she could do what she did at Florida and be better than most every coach we've had. He didn't say the best, so it's confusing as to why you bring up her being as successful as Davis was? That's not perspective by the way, that's a prediction/opinion.
It's still apples to oranges btw, but to discuss the Muschamp thing is certainly not just about "head coaching jobs." Football is the major revenue stream for all of Clemson athletics, and the second major difference is South Carolina had just had their best coach ever step down and they replaced him with Muschamp. That's similar to who we hired after Jim Davis, but certainly is much different than the current situation.
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Hall of Famer [20109]
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Muschamp coaches football
Apr 13, 2018, 12:26 AM
[ in reply to why not hire someone away from a successful tenure... ] |
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This is women's basketball we're talking about. No offense to anyone, but the two sports aren't exactly equal priorities at Clemson. I'm more than fine with that.
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CU Guru [1697]
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Re: Muschamp coaches football
Apr 13, 2018, 2:18 AM
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Don't miss the point of making a head coaching hire, not the importance of football versus basketball to the university... Some posters can't or won't think more critically than football is greater than basketball... Sure it is, but the AD treats each hire with equal importance because the success or failure of that is on his resume and legacy
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 13, 2018, 12:30 AM
[ in reply to why not hire someone away from a successful tenure... ] |
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Do you not realize how far our program declined in the last fourteen years? DRad made a solid hire, especially if you recognize Coach Butler took last out of coaching to reflect upon what led to her dismissal and how she needed to learn from it.
Give her the full four year contract then judge accordingly. She needs to recruit talent that fits Clemson and can compete in the ACC. Given her overall experience I expect a positive change in the program within two seasons.
Go Tigers!
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CU Guru [1697]
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Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 13, 2018, 2:09 AM
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I have no problem supporting the hire so please stop repeating that. You say she will get it done in two years, I say she can't get the talent she needs in two years. She can be the second coming of Pat Summit but the better players aren't going to turn down UConn, Notre Dame, Baylor, Stanford, Miss State, or even USuCk in the next two years to come to Clemson to play for a coach they don't know at a program that has been down for over a decade. At some point we have to be realistic but two years ain't it...
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Legend [16888]
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Review your's and
Apr 13, 2018, 6:52 AM
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the replies from others. You've put words in others' 'mouth's while removing some from your own. Aside from being argumentative, your point(s), such as it/they are, are lost, at least on this reader. For example, the previous poster didn't say 'get it done in two years'...he said improvement. In an earlier post, YOU said she wouldn't succeed where Davis did. So...which is it?
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CU Guru [1697]
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My apologies, I should have realized
Apr 13, 2018, 7:00 AM
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a while ago that late nights and message boards are not complementary...
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CU Guru [1697]
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My apologies, I should have realized
Apr 13, 2018, 7:03 AM
[ in reply to Review your's and ] |
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a while ago that late nights and message boards are not complementary...
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 13, 2018, 8:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure... ] |
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Knuck, I asked who DRad interviewed beyond Butler and only know Smith of Elon. Butler, with only a four year contract, has to show immediate improvement to get an extension to recruit. I frankly would have fine with hiring a UConn assistant, but DRad has a far better feel of who we could hire and how much it might take that person to start turning the program around.
I agree we cannot continue hiring second rate coaches in any sport and expect success, however DRad and the staff had to throughly investigate every possible hire and you should ask him at a “Prowl & Growl” meeting to justify the choice if you so strongly.
Give Butler a chance to prove her former AD at UF wrong by resurrecting Clemson’s program over time. One last comment, Clemson has talented players, but frankly listening to several broadcasters including Jim Davis I am sure Smith knew how get the most out of those we currently have. DRad wants initial improvement and expects Butler to show it consistently, thus she has her work cut out.
Go Tigers!
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110%er [7719]
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Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 13, 2018, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure... ] |
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"We have to be realistic" so says the guy who isnt realistic about the pool of coaches our AD was able to pull from.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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110%er [6692]
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Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure...
Apr 13, 2018, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: why not hire someone away from a successful tenure... ] |
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So you're saying in two years she won't be able to recruit with the best teams in the country? Man, she must be a terrible coach.
Also, the poster said "positive change," i.e., win more games, in two years.
Comprehension much?
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Legend [17631]
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Hall of Famer [20109]
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Re: Bad comparison.
Apr 14, 2018, 7:41 AM
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Spurrier might be a HOFer, but not because of anything he did at SCar.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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All-In [38452]
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Re: Time will tell. I hope you’re right.
Apr 12, 2018, 10:01 PM
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What other things will you do for 1825 days ?
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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All-In [44121]
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I think we did hire an accomplished power 5 winner.
Apr 14, 2018, 11:03 AM
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No, not a winner that won national championships, but someone who improved the Florida women's basketball program, and made postseason play 8 of her 10 years there, including 4 NCAA Tournaments. I much prefer hiring someone like that, who has had success in major college basketball, versus someone who has only coached at the mid-major level or an assistant who has proven nothing.
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CU Medallion [64693]
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CU Medallion [55695]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 7:31 PM
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I think that when a new coach is being hired after the one we had was fired, hiring another that's just been fired. There should be an understanding that we are interested in winning championships at Clemson, and that anything less is just not acceptable bc, if we're not interested in winning championships with our women's basketball program, we should drop the program bc it is wasting money. Also, why fire one that's not winning championships, and hire another that can't get us above .500 or in contention to sometime or another win a championship. And again, I say if a championship isn't in the future of the program, do away with that program that good money is being spent on and only goes to waste bc we will still have a losing women's BB team!!! I surely hope this hire is great for our women's BB program. When good money is being thrown into our women's BB program, I believe we are deserving of a good to great program capable of winning at a high level. Goooo coach Butler, and get our lady Tigers BB team in order with winning!!!
Message was edited by: allorangeallthetime52®
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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All these years later and Jim Davis' record is still much better
Apr 12, 2018, 7:37 PM
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much better than his successors.
What have we gained other than bowing to political correctness?
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All-In [25116]
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Davis was 8-20 in his last season at Clemson***
Apr 12, 2018, 7:38 PM
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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One terrible year ...
Apr 12, 2018, 7:39 PM
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Yes, he had a terrible year, but overall we have not improved. That's the point.
Davis was 355-197 at Clemson. He had only two losing seasons total.
We have not had even one winning season since he was fired thirteen years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clemson_Tigers_women%27s_basketball
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All-In [25116]
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I know***
Apr 12, 2018, 7:53 PM
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All-In [44121]
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We were 39-47 his last three years in Clemson.
Apr 12, 2018, 8:54 PM
[ in reply to One terrible year ... ] |
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That's pretty bad, after having made the NCAA Tournament 14 of the previous 15 seasons. The program was clearly on the decline. He seems like a nice guy, and Clemson has obviously failed to hire anyone who could come close to matching his success at Clemson, but it seemed like it was time for a change.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Yes, as you say ... “It seemed like” time for a change, but
Apr 12, 2018, 9:09 PM
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Things aren’t always what they seem.
If you’re going to kick someone with his record to the curb you need to be sure you can hire someone better.
You’ve been a vociferous defender of Brad Brownell when a great many people have felt it was “time for a change.”
I have agreed with you on Coach Brownell, but I think you have it wrong on Coach Davis.
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All-In [25116]
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what's weird is that McKinley
Apr 12, 2018, 10:08 PM
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turned out to have the best record post Davis, even though she started the decline she did not have just abysmal season like Coleman and Smith did.
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All-In [44121]
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I admit to not knowing details about Coach Davis's tenure
Apr 14, 2018, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Yes, as you say ... “It seemed like” time for a change, but ] |
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other than the little bit I have researched regarding his records and postseason tournaments. I do remember that we had a good women's basketball program while he was here. He seemed to really build on the success Annie Tribble had. Davis's record of so many NCAA Tournament seasons in a row was very impressive, and perhaps Clemson acted too quickly in letting him go. It just didn't seem like a good trend with his last few seasons as our coach.
I absolutely agree that we should've done our best to hire a coach who we thought would be better, and we totally screwed the pooch so to speak. Our program hasn't been the same since.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Davis was 8-20 in his last season at Clemson*** Is
Apr 12, 2018, 8:11 PM
[ in reply to Davis was 8-20 in his last season at Clemson*** ] |
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Davis took the team to 14 NCAA tournaments out of 18 years. Two more to nit. Sweet 16 and elite 8 several times during the years tenn and la tech was dominant.
He was a good coach and shouldn’t have been fired.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Davis was 8-20 in his last season at Clemson*** Is
Apr 12, 2018, 11:20 PM
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Plain and simple, Jim Davis was a great coach who had a down year after which, his boss panicked and let him go. Turns out that was a huge mistake!
Hope this hire works out and brings success back to women's basketball. Recruit good & great players who know how to win! Get this turned around and move forward!
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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No proof, but that was my personal conclusion.
Apr 12, 2018, 7:58 PM
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He certainly hadn't done anything to warrant being fired.
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All-In [44121]
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You mean other than losing more games than he won
Apr 12, 2018, 8:55 PM
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over his last 3 years as our coach?
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Re: You mean other than losing more games than he won
Apr 12, 2018, 9:14 PM
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How many men were interviewed to replace him?
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All-In [44121]
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I'm guessing none, because the PC Police have overtaken
Apr 14, 2018, 11:08 AM
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college athletics. Am I right?
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All-In [38452]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 7:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire ] |
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Most of us thought Dabo was a mistake ..or a stop-gap , or just the BOT making another bad HFC hire .
I'm willing to bet that coach Butler will be good for us , I trust in the DRad ??
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 8:01 PM
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She may indeed improve Clemson women's basketball ... and let's face it, she has a really low bar to clear.
Well what's done is done. Mistakes of the past 13 years are history. We can't change'em.
I agree ... give her a chance.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 10:34 PM
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Tiger posters, Two brief comments to start: 1. Coach Butler is not perfect! She got dismissed for a variety of reasons according to what I’ve read including two sub-par out of her last three at UF. Give her the benefit of the doubt at least! Her overall record is more than solid in a tough SEC environment. She’ll know what is ahead in the ACC.
2. She stayed out of coaching deliberately this past year to reflect and assess. That says she likely reached some hard conclusions which should make a better coach/mentor.
Finally I remember Coach Davis as our coach and in his time he led a fine program, but one which later needed to adapt. His last seasons reflected the need for LJC upgrades among other circumstances to overcome. Today LJC is clearly a better facility and Clemson’s name recognition should help attract good recruits and even top ones once Coach Butler begins turning the corner into success given the right staff and other needed support.
Welcome her and remember you grow the most when you fail! You appreciate second chances and I believe Butler will make the most of hers. We owe her that chance to succeed.
Go Tigers!
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CU Guru [1656]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 11:07 PM
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She was viewed as a failure at Florida. Most of the comments center around never finishing 3rd or better in the SEC and never making the sweet sixteen in the NCAA.
I think she will improve the program, if for no other reason the previous hires were so poor.
I hope she is successful.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 13, 2018, 9:21 AM
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FYI everybody reading this thread,
Go look at UF Women’s basketball history. Other than Debbie Yow early (2 yrs) and their in the 1990s Florida has been decent at best. Butler actually has one, if not the best, conference record among the coaches since 2000. Clemson’s hires since Davis make UF look awesome by comparison so we can only improve!
Go Tigers!
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110%er [7719]
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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Time to "move on" ? I agree ...
Apr 14, 2018, 7:47 PM
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We've had 14 consecutive losing seasons in women's basketball. I'd say we've definitely "moved on" ...
Just for the record, I never said anything about re-hiring Jim Davis. But, 14 years ago, it was not time to move on. Still, we did it anyway and now we see the results.
All I've said in any of my posts is that in retrospect it was obviously a mistake to let Jim Davis go when we did because we have not improved or actually even approached the level of success he had during Jim Davis' tenure.
I wish this latest in the long line of Tiger women's hoops hopefuls the very best and I do sincerely hope that the program can be returned to some symbalance of it's best years under Jim Davis.
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Mascot [20]
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All-In [38452]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 7:53 PM
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Alright lady ... go rub that Rock and give it 110% .
Go Tigers !
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Legend [16888]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 8:08 PM
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Sometimes, alma maters are bad employers. Often times, you're the reason success is fleeting. But, there are times when it's the culture and folks around you that make it tough to set roots, much less bloom, where you're planted. What's good for cacti, won't work for roses, even though both have thorns.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 8:13 PM
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Very well stated !!!!
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All-In [46783]
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Hall of Famer [22127]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 9:06 PM
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There used to be a saying, if you want to find a good pitcher for your baseball team, drive through the country and find a young man throwing rocks at a frog on a lily pad fifty yards away. If he can knock the frog off the lily pad over 50% of the time, sign him up. If you want to find a good basketball shooter, drive through the country and stop at every house where you see a metal ring from a barrel nailed to the barn door.
I just don't know if that old saying holds water but it still makes for a good conversation topic.
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Mascot [20]
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Once, down by the river, I nailed a groundhog in the head
Apr 12, 2018, 9:26 PM
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from I'm guessing 60 feet. With a nice sized rock. The rock weighed maybe a little more than a baseball, and the groundhog was killed near instantaneously. I was maybe 13~14. True story.
Would have been a major coincidence if a pro scout saw me. I was pretty good with rocks.
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Legend [16888]
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Re: Once, down by the river, I nailed a groundhog in the head
Apr 13, 2018, 6:54 AM
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I don't know...6 inches matters.
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All-In [38452]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 8:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire ] |
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I admit I was lost until the cacti/rose thing ... then poof , clarity !
You're right , it's a multitude of factors that need to coalesce properly for someone in new digs to have success .
Factor 1 : Hard Work .
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All-In [46783]
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Congratulations Amanda we look forward to you leading
Apr 12, 2018, 8:10 PM
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Our women’s Basketball program! She beat the Gamecocks 5 times at Florida, I’ll take that or just one of those considering where our program is now. This should be a challenge you can handle!!
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Hall of Famer [24648]
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Re: TNET: Clemson makes women's basketball coach hire
Apr 12, 2018, 10:06 PM
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Welcome to the Family Coach Butler!!!!
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All-In [27366]
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Orange Blooded [2281]
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Dang guys..give the woman a chance...
Apr 13, 2018, 8:14 AM
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before you start crucifying her. Funny how many here claim to care nothing about women's basketball but now want to pick the coach. I remember that she had some really good teams at Charlotte where women's basketball was considered an afterthought to the men's team. If she can put wins on the board and fannies in the seats, she will suddenly be a hero and a lot of naysayers here will forget that they ever said anything against her and sing her praises.
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Legend [16174]
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Tough break CoachMac...maybe next time***
Apr 13, 2018, 12:36 PM
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110%er [9949]
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Two thumbs up!
Apr 14, 2018, 12:05 PM
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Good luck Coach Butler!
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