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110%er [6692]
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Ok, lets clear everything up on this OP thing. (long)
Mar 23, 2010, 12:09 AM
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This board is getting incredibly harder to come back to because of all these battles between OP haters and lovers. So why don't we come to a compromise?
Things we should all agree on:
1) We have to start winning in the post season tournaments--both ACC and NCAA.
2) We do need to start bringing in some recruits that are more talented, not always the most athletic--take the lower seeds in this years tourney.
3) OP has done wonders for this program--and he has room to improve still.
4) OP is one of the greatest coaches we have had at Clemson for basketball--maybe not the greatest, but one of the best.
To the haters:
1) To say OP has hit the ceiling is laughable unless you can see the future. You never know what can happen from year to year, unless it is a Tommy Bowden coached football team (just a joke).
2) You can not blame OP for not bringing in blue chip recruits. Clemson isn't a college basketball power house putting guys in the NBA--the NCAA can run that BS commercial about most the athletes going pro in something else, the athletes want to go pro in a sport period.
3) Give OP at least a couple more years to see what will happen, if he is in the same spot 2-3 years from now then you will probably get your wish--this is not the same scenario as Tommy Bowden, it is Clemson Basketball.
To the OP fan club:
1) Sooner or later, if this trend continues, then OP will need to be let go. We can't settle for average. In the words of Herm Edwards "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME."
2) In 2-3 years if OP doesn't have us going deep into the ACC tourney and at least to the second round of the NCAA's then it might be best to try our hand with a different coach--for the betterment of this team.
We all want the best for the basketball team, but haters: OP isn't going anywhere for at least 2-3 years, and pumpers: if OP's team isn't producing like we all want and think it should then he will be gone.
Now, can we all just get along and support our outstanding baseball team? OMAHA HERE WE COME! GO TIGERS!
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Oculus Spirit [75780]
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Re: Ok, lets clear everything up on this OP thing. (long)
Mar 23, 2010, 12:16 AM
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I think I agree with almost all of that. We certainly are not yet in a position to get a coach we know is better. I do not think that OP is an elite coach. He comes in some where around very good range. If he were great, he'd have been in KY or some other huge job that has come open during his time here. I am just not sure the program is built to the level that a coach a notch or 2 above OP would come in.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: Ok, lets clear everything up on this OP thing. (long)
Mar 23, 2010, 12:22 AM
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Exactly my point. We aren't the type of program a big time coach would come into yet. We aren't going to get a better coach so firing OP would be to regress our program right now. But if you can't produce in post season then at some point you gotta show the coach the door.
Neither the "haters" or "pumpers" are right in this situation but the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Die-Hard [8977]
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I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 1:01 AM
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and I'm not calling for him to go, but why does he get 9-10 years when nobody else does? What makes him untouchable, or even beyond criticism? People were screaming for Tommy Bowden's head LONG before he'd been at Clemson 10 years. Larry Shyatt had NONE of the advantages Oliver Purnell has and people wanted to run him out of town after 1 year. Jack Leggett's been at Clemson for 17 years, never had a losing season, only missed the NCAA Tournament once in that time period and averages over 40 wins a year and yet some people still want to run him off. Granted, those people aren't very smart. I do wish coach Purnell would let go of his obsession with "athleticism" and recruit some basketball players, not just athletes. He could take a lesson from some of the teams left in the tournament. Some people (Mickey Plyler for one) have called him "the best coach on campus" and that is just insane, especially until his team wins an NCAA Tournament game. I don't hate him, but I'm not infatuated with him either.
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110%er [6577]
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nailed it.***
Mar 23, 2010, 1:12 AM
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Connoisseur [280]
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Re: I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 2:11 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a "hater"... ] |
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Hope I'm wrong but I just don't see OP taking us to the "next level"...just like TB. Sorry, but it comes down to money.
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Legend [15543]
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Re: I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 9:16 AM
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From where we were before OP got to Clemson, this is the next level. What justification do you use to think we will improve if he goes? We won't pay for a big name, and a stellar young coach is a long shot who is waiting to jump to a national power (Dabo seems to be the exception when it comes to wanting this as a stepping stone to get to a bigger program), and maybe there is one out there for Basketball, but odds are against it. JMHO
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Oculus Spirit [75780]
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Re: I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 10:56 AM
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Can't use Dabo here. Yes there are better college football jobs, but not many. There are plenty of better college basketball jobs.
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110%er [6692]
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Re: I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 2:24 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a "hater"... ] |
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To be fair, Rick Barnes probably would have gotten that amount of time had he not bolted. But I would give OP 2-3 more years because you can't deny during the season he has had success. 4 straight 20 win seasons for the first time, record for most seasons in a row .500 or above in the ACC, 3 straight tourney appearances. My point is the only thing that people really have a gripe with, and rightfully so, is the fact that he seems to not be able to get it done come tourney time. He can get us there, but still can't get us to win.
Winning in the season is important, winning in tournaments is greater. He has one side of that down, and hopefully he can get the other side down in the next 2-3 years and I feel that if he can, then this program will really take off. I'm not saying he can do no wrong, or should get a lifetime contract by no means, but he has done great things for this basketball team and I don't think he has hit a ceiling just yet.
One of the main reasons right now we shouldn't replace him is the fact that we wouldn't be able to get a bigger coach to come in and would have to take a chance on one of these "mid-major" coaches more than likely. It might would work out but then again we might would regress.
And just for the record I'm not a "hater" or a "pumper" but a Clemson basketball fan and I want the best for the team, which I feel right now is to keep OP.
And to me Jack Leggett is the best coach on campus.
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CU Medallion [64600]
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If you don't know.....
Mar 23, 2010, 8:36 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a "hater"... ] |
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if you really don't know, there's no use in trying to explain it to you.
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Junkie [563]
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Re: I'm not a "hater"...
Mar 23, 2010, 10:05 AM
[ in reply to I'm not a "hater"... ] |
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well there's a first time for everything.....
and this is the first time that I agree with everything you said in a post...
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Orange Blooded [4741]
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Standout [300]
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Pretty good idea but needs adjustments...
Mar 23, 2010, 6:10 AM
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For starters, Explain what "more talented, less athletic" means. This is oxymoronic and doesn't make much sense. For instance, we still have people who think we just need better shooters and don't worry about the athletic part, etc. To exaggerate the point, there are better shooters in the girls game, but they don't need to be brought in to the program.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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KC Rivers = basketball player. Olu Bablola = athlete
Mar 23, 2010, 9:39 AM
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Trevor booker = basketball player; James Mayes = athlete
Those are the best illustrations I can come up with to help reinforce the point.
It's not just guys who can shoot that we need, though we clearly lack consistency in that department.
We need well rounded guys who are dependable night after night and who do lots of things well.
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Junkie [563]
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Re: KC Rivers = basketball player. Olu Bablola = athlete
Mar 23, 2010, 10:10 AM
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Brian Narcisse = athlete
Noel Johnson = player
Tanner Smith = athlete
Terrance Oglesby = player
Donte Hill = athlete
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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With one exception ...
Mar 23, 2010, 10:45 AM
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Well ... IMHO,
Terrance Oglesby = "shooter" ... not that there is anything terribly wrong with that ... as long as he is willing to accept his role and not expect to start.
We desperately needed a "shooter" to come in this year and light things up occasionally. TO could (should have) have done that.
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Oculus Spirit [75780]
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Re: With one exception ...
Mar 23, 2010, 10:59 AM
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How about TO's range but with better choice of shot. Just becasue the kid was willing to miss 10-15 3's a game from the back thrid of the front court does not make him a great shooter. There were too many games where he'd be stone cold and do nothing but give the other team an easy rebound and no chace to get back on D.
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Amateur [41]
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Re: Ok, lets clear everything up on this OP thing. (long)
Mar 23, 2010, 6:37 AM
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If OP had not choked away 2003, 2004 in NIT and won a single NCAA game in 03, 04, or 05 let alone 2 he would have bolted for somewhere else...he was investigating Michigan job way before they beat us in tourney.
It is Clemson hoop, but give me a break....not winning an NCAA game after that many years coaching is almost as crazy as how long it took Wade Phillips to win a playoff game. They both have been coaching 20+years. Each year all these "Non" basketball schools, and unknown coaches win NCAA games. It is shameful we can not fall into one victory.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Did he not get us into the ACC Championship game last year?***
Mar 23, 2010, 7:46 AM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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2 years ago, last year we lost in the 1st round of ACC***
Mar 23, 2010, 7:47 AM
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110%er [9672]
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Commissioner [931]
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Just curious
Mar 23, 2010, 9:30 AM
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You say we are not a basketball powerhouse.. What about the BYU's... Ohios.. Butlers... heck even Ga Techs.. the New Mexicos.. The UNLVS.... just throwing out a few names who recruit very well.. People act like we can't recruit because we are not a big basketball tradition school.. IT DOES NOT MATTER if we have basketball tradition or not.. We are in the ACC.. We are Clemson... Flat out we should be able to bring in top players.. Not good athletes.. Purnell refuses to change the type of player he recruits.. THAT is a problem..
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Savant [475]
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Re: Just curious
Mar 23, 2010, 9:46 AM
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New Mexico, UNLV, and GT have much better basketball tradition than Clemson. GT is also in a basketball talent rich state and city. Butler has midmajor tradition, but I would not say they are attracting a lot of talent - just an experienced, confident, and well coached team. Your examples on the whole are pretty poor.
Clemson has subpar facilities, limited tradition, and subpar fan support. I also wouldn't say Purnell refuses to change the type of player he recruits because he is going after much higher ceiling guys now. Even though he missed on his top targets this year, he is at least in the conversation with those guys.
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Junkie [563]
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Re: Just curious
Mar 23, 2010, 10:12 AM
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New Mexico?
give me a break...
some of you are on crack..
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Savant [475]
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Re: Just curious
Mar 23, 2010, 10:15 AM
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Debatable, but they had a pretty good run in the late 90s under Dave Bliss. Also, the Pit is a great venue for a college basketball game and the fans are pretty rabid. Minus conference affiliation, I would put those factors on equal footing with Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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He recruited the guys we need. They just chose not to come.
Mar 23, 2010, 9:47 AM
[ in reply to Just curious ] |
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He went hard after some of the best HS talent in the nation over the past couple of years, so to say he doesn't go after top players is just false.
Maybe he aimed too high.
An arguement could be made that there are guys who can give us what we need that are not necessarily the 'blue chip" recruits that end up going to UNC/Duke/Kentucky, etc. Maybe expecting a Shannon Scott to com e to Clemson is still too much of a stretch.
But, your statement that because we are in the ACC and we are "Clemson", we should expect great players to sign, just is not valid.
In fact, BECAUSE we are in the ACC, and BECAUSE we are "Clemson" ... may be one of the prime reasons we are NOT able to bring in the top players on a routine basis.
Year-in and year-out, we have to face UNC / Duke / Maryland / Wake, and we have to recruit against them too. We face teh same obstacles that Vandy and Kentucky face in football in the SEC.
We don't have to like it, but we do have to admit it.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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We are under .500 overall and under .400 in conference
Mar 23, 2010, 10:06 AM
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Lets have some perspective here. If Purnell has topped out, which I think he may have, then fine. I can't think of a time when Clemson basketball has averaged finishing 3 years in the top half of the ACC.
Sure I'd like an NCAA win, but I also remember where we have been overall and in recent history. Sure I'd like another ACC tournament win, but we only have 16 of those in history. We've only won 2 in one year twice. We went from 81 to 89 without winning a game in the tournament and unless you count a win in the play-in game we went from 98 to 04 without winning a game.
If people want to say that is accepting mediocrity, fine. Consistently being mediocre would be massive improvement for us based on our history. If people want to get greedy and put Purnell on the hot seat, beware of what we could be.
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Junkie [563]
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Re: We are under .500 overall and under .400 in conference
Mar 23, 2010, 10:16 AM
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if that is the case and the admin feels the same way, I hope they let the fans know if thats the case and we can just do away with the basketball program entirely... I would rather not have one at my alma mater than to have one who expects to lose, has no ambition to be better, and seemingly is satisfied with that..
just let us all know..
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Savant [475]
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Re: We are under .500 overall and under .400 in conference
Mar 23, 2010, 10:24 AM
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No one here regardless of what side of the argument they are on expects or wants to lose. What "fans" like you do not understand is the reality of the situation and how that should temper immediate expectations. Your posting history illustrates that you understand little about the college basketball landscape, but are a super Clemson fan, for which I commend you.
Let me lay it out:
Clemson is historically terrible. Prior to OP, there are a few runs that were noteworthy. Tates Locke and Cliff Ellis cheated. Rick Barnes rode one solid recruiting class that overachieved and did not bring in any additional talent that would allow for building a consistent winner.
Clemson facilities are subpar. I am happy that we have a dedicated practice facility now, but so do most major conference teams and ours is pretty plane jane. It does nothing to "WOW" recruits. Moreover, Little John is an average arena and is seldom full with the exception of major conference matchups.
Fan support is mediocre. Basketball is a distraction between bowl season and football signing day/baseball season. Basketball really is third on the pecking order of sports at Clemson.
South Carolina is a poor state when it comes to basketball talent. This doubles down the recruiting difficulties given the above factors.
Oliver Purnell is accomplishing things that have never before been done in Clemson basketball. He is well respected and liked in the coaching fraternity. If you dump Purnell now, it will be hard to find a coach to come in here because candidates will know the difficulty of living up to high level expectations. Now if in three years the state of the program is the same, it might be time for a change. Now is not the time though.
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All-In [49613]
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And you graduated when?
Mar 23, 2010, 10:29 AM
[ in reply to Re: We are under .500 overall and under .400 in conference ] |
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"one who expects to lose, has no ambition to be better, and seemingly is satisfied with that."
In a nutshell, you have described all but a handfull of the years of Clemson basketball. It was absolutely an afterthought in the mind of Clemson athletics, to the point that Frank Howard wouldn't let the basketball team take part in post-season play because it would interfere with spring football practice.
It's a program with 8 times more one-and-dones in the ACC basketball tournament that wins.
It's a program that defined futility in ACC basketball for decades.
Thankfully, neither the administration nor the coach nor the fans are willing to endure that any longer.
I'm sorry the speed of improvement doesn't meet your specifications. But if it took Moses and the Tribe 40 years to get out of the wilderness, I think OP can have some more time pulling Clemson basketball from the abyss.
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Orange Blooded [3573]
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I'm not saying accept losing
Mar 23, 2010, 11:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: We are under .500 overall and under .400 in conference ] |
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or flatlining. But we have accepted worse than this for much longer periods. Statistically Purnell is among the best coaches Clemson has ever had. Coaching isn't like walking stairs. If we get rid of Purnell, you can't make the assumption that the next coach is going to take the next step, and the next coach to the step above that. If you want to say we are mediocre now, then we have been much worse than mediore for 100 years on the hardwood.
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Enthusiast [102]
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Re: Ok, lets clear everything up on this OP thing. (long)
Mar 23, 2010, 10:13 AM
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Part of the problem is that as a Clemson fan your heart can get in the way of your head. To Clemson fans it is simple... Go to Clemson. To an 18 year old kid from White Station Tennessee (Hollins the nations #1 recruit) he had probably never seen Clemson play until the last few years. If the kid will even talk to him, OP probably has to say something to the effect of "hey we are Clemson... located in SC... trending up..." By comparision, Duke, Kentucky, UNC, Maryland, Wake, WV, Cuse, etc. will all be known to him. It takes more then a few good years to erase 100 bad ones.
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Head Coach [759]
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WV!?!?!
Mar 23, 2010, 11:35 AM
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They win the Big East 1 year and suddenly they are a powerhouse? Sadly, you will never understand the irony of bringing up WV just before saying "It takes more then a few good years to erase 100 bad ones."
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Enthusiast [102]
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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