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All-In [44055]
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Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 11:16 AM
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A frequent criticism of our basketball program has been that our coaches don't recruit well. I agree that recruiting isn't Brownell's strong suit. However, I'm encouraged by our current class as well as future classes.
One poster here made a great comment the other day, and that is the importance of looking at offer lists and not just stars. Consider from our 2022 class:
Dillon Hunter: offers from Baylor, Auburn, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and others.
RJ Godfrey: offers from Auburn, Texas Tech, Missouri, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Ole Miss, Utah, and others.
Chauncey Wiggins: offers from Maryland, Auburn, NC State, Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Iowa State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and others.
Chauncey Gibson: offers from Creighton, Southern Methodist, Texas Tech, and others.
For our 2023 class, our verbal commit Asa Thomas chose us over offers from Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Marquette, Illinois, Iowa, and others.
Obviously our goal is to be getting top 100 players consistently, including some top 30-40 players. However, the notion that we are signing guys who are mid-major type players is incorrect.
The improvement in our recruiting the last few years is evident when looking at offer lists of the players we have brought in. I hope this is helpful for those of you who are under the impression that we aren't getting talented players.
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110%er [9736]
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Oh boy….***
Oct 14, 2022, 11:21 AM
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I guess we can check recruiting off the list…
Oct 14, 2022, 11:24 AM
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of reasons we missed the NCAA Tournament.
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All-In [44055]
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I guess we can check logic and reasoning off the list
Oct 14, 2022, 11:28 AM
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of your capabilities.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I think you may be right…
Oct 14, 2022, 11:30 AM
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as for some time I have reasoned CBB was doing more with less. Turns out, he may be doing less with more.
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All-In [44055]
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You should consider how our classes rank in the ACC
Oct 14, 2022, 11:49 AM
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to better understand how all of this works.
For example, according to 247Sports, our 2022 class ranked 10th in the ACC. Here are our ACC recruiting rankings under Brad:
2021: 9th
2020: 4th
2019: 9th
2018: 10th
2017: 9th
2016: 15th
2015: 14th
2014: 12th
2013: 14th
2012: 11th
2011: 8th
Average ACC recruiting ranking: 10.45
How does that compare to our ACC finish? Let's throw out Brad's first year in 2010-2011, since that roster did not include any of his own recruits. We are left with 2011-2012 through 2021-2022:
2011-2012: 7th
2012-2013: 11th
2013-2014: 6th
2014-2015: 9th
2015-2016: 7th
2016-2017: 12th
2017-2018: 3rd
2018-2019: 8th
2019-2020: 9th
2020-2021: 5th
2021-2022: 10th
Average ACC finish: 7.91
Based on recruiting rankings, compared with ACC finish, it's clear that Brad is doing more with less. That's a gain of roughly 2.5 spots over where we would be expected to finish based on recruiting rankings. I haven't run the numbers for every other coach in the ACC, but a +2.5 is surely among the best in the ACC.
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All-In [40777]
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In other words our recruiting is mediocre and our results are mediocre.
Oct 14, 2022, 11:53 AM
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But Brad is awesome.
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All-In [40100]
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Not gonna argue the less vs more with you because I know that’s your argument here
Oct 14, 2022, 12:37 PM
[ in reply to You should consider how our classes rank in the ACC ] |
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But that’s still not great. It’s more meh. Which BB is . . . Meh and has taken the program to meh status. It’s amazing how far you are willing to go to defend the indefensible.
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All-In [44055]
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How much better relative to our talent level
Oct 14, 2022, 1:10 PM
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does he need to do for you to feel that he's doing a good job?
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All-In [40100]
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I think as the coach he is responsible for recruiting,
Oct 14, 2022, 1:55 PM
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transfers, etc. and putting an entertaining product out there. He is not succeeding overall. If you want me to give you that he is producing at a higher level than the input he's getting, I'll give you that. Not because I 100% agree, but because I don't care. Overall, it's a fail.
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All-In [44055]
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I agree, recruiting better is the key.
Oct 14, 2022, 2:23 PM
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That's why facilities, assistant coaches, and support staff are so important. That's where the recruiting success is going to come from. Clemson going cheap on assistants has historically hindered us in recruiting. The two new assistants we brought on this summer are significant hires in that regard.
Brad has proven that he can coach them up, but that only goes so far when you're at a talent disadvantage in many conference games.
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All-In [40100]
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So it’s all external causes, none BB’s fault that our recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Is substandard. What I’m getting from you is if he could get good recruits he can coach them up. And you think he bares little of the responsibility for the lack of recruiting. I personally believe that recruiting is under the purview of the head coach and that he should also be responsible for that.
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All-In [44055]
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Brownell is absolutely responsible for our recruiting.
Oct 14, 2022, 3:04 PM
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I never said otherwise.
But as you know, recruiting is largely dependent upon assistants and facilities.
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Legend [16930]
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Re: Brownell is absolutely responsible for our recruiting.
Oct 14, 2022, 5:28 PM
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Weird, so he is or he isn’t? Wasn’t he also personally involved in the last facility upgrade? Once again, which assistant did we have to turn away because Brownell’s budget request was denied? I’d like to have all the facts when I write to our board to complain that they’ve been tying Brownell’s hands.
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Legend [16930]
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Re: I agree, recruiting better is the key.
Oct 14, 2022, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to I agree, recruiting better is the key. ] |
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Who was the top assistant that Brad wanted to hire and was willing to come to Clemson but had the salary request denied by our athletic department? I won't wait for an answer because there isn't one.
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Legend [16263]
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Re: I agree, recruiting better is the key.
Oct 14, 2022, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to I agree, recruiting better is the key. ] |
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Does Brad hire his own assistants or is that someone else in the program's responsibility? Curious if Brad has ever been denied a hire from the Admin, BOT, fans, or Other in that regard. Have any specific instances to share on that?
He got the new facilities he asked for and helped orchestrate six years ago, so the latter half of his tenure here has been with that new hotness at his ready.
With this newfound emphasis of yours on ACC comparisons versus overall (I totally get the pivot), doesn't this just reemphasize what many have been saying about Brad being over his head at this level from both a recruiting, gamesmanship, and overall program leading standpoint? In twelve years not a single team of his has made even the league semifinal championship game, and the best player he 'developed' and/or 'coached up' left early and largely petered out quickly in the NBA.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes. Does a blind squirrel stand a better chance leading Clemson basketball than the Brad?
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All-In [44055]
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I think everyone is quiet because it's unclear what you...
Oct 14, 2022, 1:23 PM
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are arguing in this thread. I'm pretty sure it started off with us being good at recruiting, then turned into we suck at recruiting.
Who cares though. I like our coach and team. Hope we have a great season, as always.
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All-In [44055]
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This isn't hard to follow.
Oct 14, 2022, 2:30 PM
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My point, which I thought was clear, is that we have players with offers from other power five programs. As I mentioned in my original post, the belief here that we fill our roster with players who have no business playing power 5 basketball is incorrect. The offer list of our recent recruits backs that up.
With that said, I never stated nor implied that we have elite talent. We don't. We need better talent. I have always been consistent in saying that recruiting is not Brad's strong suit.
In response to your ridiculous post about Brad doing less with more, I showed you how our ACC finish is significantly better than our recruiting rankings would suggest. To people who are interested in being objective, this is evidence of good coaching.
Your average TNet poster doesn't want to see evidence that Brad overachieves, because that doesn't fit the narrative that he's an average or below average coach.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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This isn't hard to follow...
Oct 14, 2022, 2:38 PM
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Let me explain it again.
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All-In [44055]
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Now you’re just being obtuse.
Oct 14, 2022, 3:14 PM
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I explained it because you said it wasn’t clear to you. You were the only one who said that.
You don’t seem interested in having a real discussion about my post. Shocking.
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Athletic Dir [867]
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Re: Now you’re just being obtuse.
Oct 14, 2022, 3:26 PM
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You're such a little man to put me on ignore. Do you do that to everyone that points out how insufficient of a person you are. I've been around message boards and you're nothing but a troll.
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Legend [16263]
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Re: Now you’re just being obtuse.
Oct 14, 2022, 3:50 PM
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I don't know that Her Heinous can even see posts from those she has on Ignore. Ignorance is bliss.
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Oculus Spirit [96873]
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He usually does that to prevent getting TDs...
Oct 14, 2022, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Now you’re just being obtuse. ] |
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(TD = thumbs down). But since you're not a paying member, you can't give TDs anyway.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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I look forward to a great season and hopefully a tournament
Oct 14, 2022, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to Now you’re just being obtuse. ] |
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birth.
The rest is just drama.
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Legend [16263]
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What has Brad's offer sheet looked like from Power 5
Oct 14, 2022, 3:04 PM
[ in reply to This isn't hard to follow. ] |
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conference head coaching vacancies during all the success he's had here, considering the terrible resources and support we provide? How about high mid-major squads? Surely all the professionals running those programs see what you see in the Brad, right?
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Athletic Dir [867]
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: You should consider how our classes rank in the ACC
Oct 14, 2022, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to You should consider how our classes rank in the ACC ] |
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Your data shows we are and always have been average to below average. Time to make a change. My job would not stand for below average. I would be replaced.
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All-In [44055]
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What do you feel our program expectations should be based on?***
Oct 14, 2022, 3:42 PM
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Legend [19697]
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Current coach's track record
Oct 14, 2022, 3:52 PM
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meaning mediocre. Twelve years to base them on with one real outlier year, and three a little above our average (I'll include the KJ NIT team)
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: Current coach's track record
Oct 15, 2022, 10:26 AM
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Agree. The fact on not making the NCAA tournament year after year is embarrassing. That’s what I base it on. With so many teams in this tournament and we can’t make it. A joke. Hurts recruiting I’m sure knowing if your a part of Clemson basketball you will sit at home every March
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Athletic Dir [867]
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Re: I guess we can check logic and reasoning off the list
Oct 14, 2022, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to I guess we can check logic and reasoning off the list ] |
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I've only been on this board for a week and I'm now convinced you're not really a Clemson fan. All you do is post about basketball and insult other Clemson fans. What was your handle on the old FGF?
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Orange Blooded [4572]
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All-In [44055]
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Oculus Spirit [82077]
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fail
Oct 14, 2022, 12:15 PM
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Orange Blooded [4572]
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You are dying on this hill alone
Oct 14, 2022, 10:26 PM
[ in reply to Mic drop. ] |
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Dude. I've been there with you early on supporting our guy, BB. But it's time to recognize that he's just not moving us forward.
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All-In [44055]
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It’s interesting that you don’t think he’s moving us forward
Oct 14, 2022, 10:33 PM
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but his last three bosses all have.
He’s never been fired in 20 years as a head coach. Perhaps he’s doing something right that people here aren’t recognizing.
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CU Medallion [55433]
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Re: I guess we can check recruiting off the list…
Oct 15, 2022, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to I guess we can check recruiting off the list… ] |
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If Brownell would do what Dabo had to do to keep his top coaches by sharing some of the bonus money he got with his top assistance to keep them where they were at Clemson, Just maybe Brownell could keep his top assistant for more than a season or two before they jump to being a HC at one of those small little league college schools just to make more money. Unless Brownell wants to live like the rich and famous, it don't take somebody a million a to even live a lavish life, much less living a 2 + million a year life. Brownell has made enough money off of Clemson to never have to work again, and what has Clemson BB program, the players, and the fan base gotten from Brownell but a mediocre baseball program basically year in, and year out!!!!
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CU Medallion [65615]
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I will give Brown-L one concession. He is not alone at not
Oct 14, 2022, 11:30 AM
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being able to recruit absolute blue chippers at Clemson. The only one who was ever able to do that to my recollection was Tates Locke, and there were obviously illegal inducements there to accomplish it.
I don't recall us EVER landing a recruit in any sort or recent time who had an offer from North Carolina, Duke, Kentucky, Kansas, or the other "usual suspects" on the national stage.
You would think that somewhere along the line, a Clemson coach would be able to successfully use this pitch:
You can go somewhere else, and become just another in a long line of great players from that school, where success is taken for granted. Or, you can come to Clemson, and be one of the cornerstones for ESTABLISHING that sort of tradition. As such, you would be beloved beyond measure, far beyond your time in college.
I would be willing to bet that some form of that is how Dabo began to make inroads in recruiting. That, and him just being Dabo. Brown-L being Brown-L is the one thing he will never be able to overcome on the recruiting trail, and is one of the reasons I think we should move on from him. But, that is a nonstarter at this point in time. I hope we have a GREAT season, but even if we do, I have no faith that he will be able to follow it up on any consistent basis due to the shortfalls in recruiting.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: I will give Brown-L one concession. He is not alone at not
Oct 14, 2022, 11:41 AM
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Brownell can do better at recruiting.
Comparing Dabo starting at Clemson to basketball recruiting is absurd. Tommy Bowden was recruiting 4 and 5* talent before Dabo got here.
We have NEVER recurring that well in basketball.
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Letterman [257]
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Re: I will give Brown-L one concession. He is not alone at not
Oct 14, 2022, 11:43 AM
[ in reply to I will give Brown-L one concession. He is not alone at not ] |
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Some of this makes sense, but Dabo could also recruit to a past national championship and a program that wasn't that far removed from success. Brownell does not have that advantage. That being said, he has had a decent amount of time to try to create the type of program we (and he) want. And, how do you know that Brownell and staff aren't using that recruiting pitch?
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Freshman [-98]
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Good Luck With That Logic
Oct 14, 2022, 11:51 AM
[ in reply to I will give Brown-L one concession. He is not alone at not ] |
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That’s like saying, if I sit in my boat long enough a record fish will eventually jump in…
The top group of today’s hoops studs are looking to make as much money as they can, as fast as they can. The Taj Boyd model doesn’t work for today’s future BB stars.
The schools that get in that game have a track record with one and done players.
Closest we have gotten was Zion, who probs never really considered us over Duke.
If you think about it, there are very few teams that are in that game, and it’s not an easy feat to join them.
The football approach doesn’t work in basketball due to the size of the squad - there is nowhere to hide during development, and the players will transfer if they don’t start…it’s not getting easier.
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All-TigerNet [11064]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 11:41 AM
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All Chauncey's...all the time!
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Legend [16263]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 11:43 AM
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I believe Brad has recruited pretty well over the years. I always like the lineup of players we have at season's start and feel like there's enough talent and skillsets to win in the league if they're coached up and developed accordingly. A 44th average recruiting class that Brad has managed over the past five years isn't too shabby. One would expect better than a 76th place finish on average over that same span, though, which is why I'm genuinely floored by 'overachieving' comments that get tossed out frequently on his behalf.
Unfortunately Brad does struggle at keeping many recruits on the roster and building team unity and chemistry, and when the only former Clemson NBA player he's coached is KJ McDaniels, who didn't stick around for a senior season for further tutelage nor flourish in the pros following, his player development skills can certainly be questioned by those seeking greater fortunes after college ball.
Hoping all this turns around in Year 13.
Go Tigers.
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All-In [27374]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 11:56 AM
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What all of you say is true. BUT. Clemson never get the five star can’t miss prospect that the Dukes and Kentuckys and Chapel Hills get every year. What would Clemson have been like IF Williamson had chosen the Tigers over Duke? Only Tates Lock has brought in that kind of talent and you see where that got us! Brad, like Dabo, gets good young men to represent Clemson on the playing field but the talent gap between the two is very big. I personally believe that one or possibly two really big time guys could turn the Tiger program into a what we all want it to be.
I wonder if the coaches explore the foreign amateur leagues for players? There are numerous very good players in the NBA whonInnever heard off!
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Legend [19697]
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We've seen guys rated as 5 stars brought in
Oct 14, 2022, 12:10 PM
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Jennings, Ricky Jones, Clarke Bynum didn't pan out. Sharone Wright did. I won't count Tree and Wise due to $$$$
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CU Medallion [67908]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 11:50 AM
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I think the offers are better. These guys need some experience and pt. It is hard to come in and make an immediate splash. Another thing that is bound to help is to get PJ back playing and healthy.
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All-In [28417]
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worst coach in acc
Oct 14, 2022, 11:58 AM
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Athletic Dir [851]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 12:04 PM
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Having talent can win games for a coach and also get him fired if he dosent produce
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Legend [19697]
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In this day and age it's not who you sign
Oct 14, 2022, 12:12 PM
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it's who hangs around. With us recruiting guys who are in need of development, it makes our bringing in transfers a greater need. That's something Brad has done pretty well until this season
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 12:28 PM
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Are you really that stupid or just trolling again?
The one "top" player we got had an "offer" from Baylor that was more or less removed because of his poor play senior year.
They let him choose to go somewhere else so he wasn't embarrassed by them pulling the offer after he committed.
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All-In [48410]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 1:37 PM
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For me, the list below that you posted does show a steady increase when compared to other ACC schools. One nice, albeit an outlier is the 4th ranked class. Sound logic on your original post.
What makes it so difficult is considering 1, do they stick around to be developed, and 2, what would the ranking look like if you had a comparison with transfers included... If that makes sense. Otherwords, is there a class ranking that includes transfers?
To me, that's where it becomes extremely tough to analyze. Baylor, gonzaga good examples.
Either way, the end result will tell the story. Recruiting, and therefore results will determine how much of an impact the new hires and the renewed commitment by Neff will actually make.
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All-In [48410]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 1:37 PM
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For me, the list below that you posted does show a steady increase when compared to other ACC schools. One nice, albeit an outlier is the 4th ranked class. Sound logic on your original post.
What makes it so difficult is considering 1, do they stick around to be developed, and 2, what would the ranking look like if you had a comparison with transfers included... If that makes sense. Otherwords, is there a class ranking that includes transfers?
To me, that's where it becomes extremely tough to analyze. Baylor, gonzaga good examples.
Either way, the end result will tell the story. Recruiting, and therefore results will determine how much of an impact the new hires and the renewed commitment by Neff will actually make.
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Hall of Famer [21870]
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"I agree that recruiting isn't Brownell's strong suit"
Oct 14, 2022, 1:53 PM
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So literally the lifeblood of the program isn't his strongsuit....
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All-Conference [403]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 2:09 PM
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That was me, and yes -- offer lists are crucial. They're not dispositive, but they are very helpful in figuring out how good a recruit is.
Brownell's recruiting is definitely on the uptick, and I say that as someone who has been very critical of him as a recruiter.
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Associate AD [805]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 14, 2022, 2:27 PM
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Judge, I’m sympathetic but don’t protest so loudly and often. It’s ineffective and annoys the peanut gallery.
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All-In [44055]
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Sounds like a peanut gallery problem to me.***
Oct 14, 2022, 3:45 PM
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110%er [6861]
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Im just going to say it
Oct 14, 2022, 2:46 PM
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Youre going to have a hard time getting anyone to care about Clemson basketball again until BB is fired. Its a painfully boring brand of ball and the results are subpar at best. And you can blame whoever or whatever you want, but at the end of the day, the product is terrible.
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All-In [44055]
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What is so boring about it?
Oct 14, 2022, 3:49 PM
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What does it need for you to consider it exciting?
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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why we suck at recruiting - exhibit a
Oct 14, 2022, 2:49 PM
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ja morant - Sumter, SC
he wound up at Murray St.
How did we not even get a sniff on this guy? The dude's AAU reel alone with Zion should have put him on the radar.
Are we that bad at evaluating young talent?
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All-In [44055]
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So you’re holding our coaches accountable for not recognizing
Oct 14, 2022, 3:48 PM
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a player than no other power 5 coaches did either?
That seems ridiculous.
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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a qualified yes
Oct 14, 2022, 4:36 PM
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Had the player came from somewhere else, you could use the "but no one else was recruiting him" line.
The guy played in AAU leagues two hours away around Columbia. There was plenty of tape to watch. His father played in college, so there's the pedigree.
I have a hard time understanding how someone that talented just disappears from your backyard all the way to Murray St.
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Orange Blooded [2849]
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Judge
Oct 15, 2022, 10:18 AM
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Trying to talk Clemson basketball to the Lunatic Fringe is like trying to talk about the Bible with an atheist.
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Legend [16930]
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Re: Judge
Oct 15, 2022, 10:28 AM
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Relax - you have at least one more season to get your selfies with Brad. I know that’s the most important thing in a Clemson coach.
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 15, 2022, 10:50 AM
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A frequent criticism of our basketball program has been that our coaches don't recruit well. I agree that recruiting isn't Brownell's strong suit. However, I'm encouraged by our current class as well as future classes.
One poster here made a great comment the other day, and that is the importance of looking at offer lists and not just stars. Consider from our 2022 class:
Dillon Hunter: offers from Baylor, Auburn, Florida State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and others.
RJ Godfrey: offers from Auburn, Texas Tech, Missouri, Georgia, Georgia Tech, Ole Miss, Utah, and others.
Chauncey Wiggins: offers from Maryland, Auburn, NC State, Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Iowa State, Georgia, Georgia Tech, and others.
Chauncey Gibson: offers from Creighton, Southern Methodist, Texas Tech, and others.
For our 2023 class, our verbal commit Asa Thomas chose us over offers from Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Marquette, Illinois, Iowa, and others.
Obviously our goal is to be getting top 100 players consistently, including some top 30-40 players. However, the notion that we are signing guys who are mid-major type players is incorrect.
The improvement in our recruiting the last few years is evident when looking at offer lists of the players we have brought in. I hope this is helpful for those of you who are under the impression that we aren't getting talented players.
They have one commitment so far in another top 100-150 player. When do they get another one...
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 17, 2022, 7:21 AM
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Why did you tell us in another thread that USC Had multiple freshman ready to come in and contribute. They have 1 5* that they kicked into and their next highest recruit is #181. You are on record stating that our higher rated recruits won't be able to contribute this year.
Also why did you say their transfer class is good, when their best transfer is a 5'11" guard that avg 4 log at Ohio state last year?
Ohhh I know. It's because you hate Clemson.
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Legend [18858]
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Re: Basketball Recruiting
Oct 17, 2022, 7:30 AM
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I completely agree that his recruiting has gotten better. However, it is like comparing SC fb recruiting to Alabama's recruiting. We are just on a different level than the top teams in the ACC. Arguably, we are like SC football in basketball. We have no substantial history to pull recruits and no results to show we are building something. Tough for any coach to build up a team in the ACC with the history and tradition that we have had. Not sure anyone can anymore, however I am ready for a change.
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