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Legend [15914]
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For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 3:30 PM
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The horrendous crimes and FOURTEEEN year coverup to maintain the false image of PSU truly is not punishable because there is no penalty harsh enough. The minute you start whining about how unfair it is you've lost perspective over what happened and the choice to keep it concealed for over 4000 days. The people who chose to go to PSU because of football chose a lie. It is not the NCAA who sold the lie, it was PSU. So why be "infuriated" with NCAA? Were you outraged at the sanctions placed on the Baylor basketball team 8 years ago?
Who is going to lose their job? $60 million isn't even half of what they take in annually... AND donations are up. Perhaps other sports programs suffer, but so be it. The argument is similarly reminiscent over Obama's claim that GM was too big to fail, so bail them out. If so much is dependent upon the football program, then what is to stop them from covering up in the future? You CANNOT let your football or athletics control your university.
Lastly, if this happened at Clemson, I'd say shut down the sports programs for a minimum of 1-2 years, clean house, and come back with a plan to make sure this never happens again. Yes, I mean all of them. Clemson is a university, and though I love her and her sports with all my heart, the purpose is to educate students. Save the "this is a life lesson" crap.
I'm stunned that anyone would feel that ANY punishment was too much. I'm not out for blood, but in my opinion, PSU got off way too easy. If you're a fence sitter saying, "well, the NCAA didn't investigate it," or, "it isn't their jurisdiction..." answer me this; why do you think PSU was so quick to accept the penalty?
I may feel bad for the students, but they can transfer or make different decisions; those raped boys cannot. No penalty was too severe and to throw stones at the NCAA and protect Penn St is misguided and ignorant.
I'm going to climb Mt Tallac in Tahoe and try to forget about this for a bit. Truly hope everyone has a great day and finds their goodness within.
--Ok, guess the hike will be tomorrow.. tigernet wins again! ;
Message was edited by: soywaker®
Message was edited by: soywaker®
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110%er [5627]
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they should shut the whole school down in my opinion***
Jul 23, 2012, 3:31 PM
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Legend [19202]
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Just answer me this
Jul 23, 2012, 3:42 PM
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And before I continue you are right--horrible and evil crimes went on at PSU and those involved should be punished harshly. And, I am using the following as an example but I love the guys who serve for us--however I think this example with soldiers in our country or any country has a truth in basis.
If our country had a military operation where some of our soldiers went rouge and got evil and did some bad stuff with the natives (just think Sandusky) and our leaders tried to cover it up then should the US cease to exist as a country OR do you just punish the people involved? It is the same because evil is evil but how do you seperate those responsible from who they represent--a country, business, organization, or school? It is easy when the country is evil--Nazi Germany--but what about when it is only certain people involved in evil in a moral country? Would the US be liable for billions to the country our people went rouge in? Should millions of Americans be punished for the acts of a few soldiers?
If you can answer this one for me then I might see why PSU has to be destroyed by the NCAA. Just trying to understand the logic here. The crime was horrible but does the punishment fit the crime? I don't think so.
JMHO
Message was edited by: AThomas®
Message was edited by: AThomas®
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All-In [40941]
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No school should ever have NCAA sanctions placed upon them
Jul 23, 2012, 3:51 PM
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if a student or coach messes up and breaks the rules, only the student and coach involved should punished.
Oh and yes, not only the soldiers suffer. We as a nation suffer the consequences and when the military is sued, we pay the fines not the soldiers.
Just to clarify, it wasn't billions of dollars, it was 60 million which is less that the amount that McDonalds was sued for for a hot cup of coffee.
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Legend [19202]
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I inflated it because we are a country and PSU a school.***
Jul 23, 2012, 3:53 PM
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All-In [40941]
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What is worse than the athletic department covering up child
Jul 23, 2012, 4:02 PM
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rape to protect their precious program. 60 million is not much money to them. 10 scholarships a year is not much.
The coots and the whitney and UNC and academic fraud are not even in the same ballpark as what PSU did to protect their program.
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Legend [19202]
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Agree on how horrible all this is. No problem there.***
Jul 23, 2012, 4:05 PM
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Legend [19586]
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110%er [8957]
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10 per year, must be 20 under the 85 limit for 4 years
Jul 23, 2012, 4:50 PM
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I read it as 10 per year. They have to be 20 under the maximum for following four years.
Four-year reduction of grants-in-aid. For a period of four years commencing with the 2013-2014 academic year and expiring at the conclusion of the 2016-2017 academic year, the NCAA imposes a limit of 15 initial grants-in-aid (from a maximum of 25 allowed) and for a period of four years commencing with the 2014-2015 academic year and expiring at the conclusion of the 2017-2018 academic year a limit of 65 total grants-in-aid (from a maximum of 85 allowed) for football during each of those specified years. In the event the total number of grants-in-aid drops below 65, the University may award grants-in-aid to non-scholarship student-athletes who have been members of the football program as allowed under Bylaw 15.5.6.3.6
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/20120723/21207232
but he math might still add up to 90. Too tired to figure that out right now.
Message was edited by: divingtiger®
Message was edited by: divingtiger®
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Legend [19586]
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Re: 10 per year, must be 20 under the 85 limit for 4 years
Jul 23, 2012, 4:54 PM
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Yeah, this a lot worse than people are thinking. PSU football will be where SMU is for a LONGGGG time. To me it's a tragedy due to football not violating any rules for an advantage.
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All-In [40941]
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How is protecting a child rapist not an advantage?
Jul 23, 2012, 5:02 PM
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If Sandusky was fired for child rape 10 years ago it would have hurt the program a lot. Now that they got caught, it will hurt them even more, which pales in comparison to the hurt that the kids have to live with.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: How is protecting a child rapist not an advantage?
Jul 23, 2012, 5:07 PM
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AGAIN, FOR THE 101TH TIME, PSU is currently recruiting at #15 or better, even after all this. Saying they would have hurt had they done the RIGHT thing from the beginning is unfounded. Hypothetical and more than likely absolutely wrong.
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110%er [8957]
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They used their squeaky clean image as a recruiting
Jul 23, 2012, 5:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: 10 per year, must be 20 under the 85 limit for 4 years ] |
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tool. An image that was false. It may not have been a violation of institutional constrol because they didn't get caught until now. Using their false image as a recruiting tool may not have given them an advantage, but it sure kept them from a serious disadvantage.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: They used their squeaky clean image as a recruiting
Jul 23, 2012, 5:08 PM
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You can't say that for sure. They're recruiting 15TH right now!! You can't say they would have done worse after doing the RIGHT thing???
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CU Guru [1357]
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Re: Just answer me this
Jul 23, 2012, 3:53 PM
[ in reply to Just answer me this ] |
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I think this sums it up best:
''Not only does the NCAA have the authority to act in this case, we also have the responsibility to say that such egregious behavior is not only against our bylaws and constitution, but also against our value system and basic human decency.'' - NCAA executive committee chairman Ed Ray, president of Oregon State.
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Legend [15914]
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It is Penn St University... not Penn St Football Program.
Jul 23, 2012, 3:59 PM
[ in reply to Just answer me this ] |
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The university is and will be fine. The athletics department will suffer and it should.
This is also entertainment for fans and an opportunity for students (athletics). This is not war. You're analogy is hyperbole.
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Legend [19202]
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It is not war but you see the analogy. I could have used a
Jul 23, 2012, 4:07 PM
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business instead. Or an organization like the Red Cross or the Church of your choice.
Message was edited by: AThomas®
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Legend [19352]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 3:46 PM
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who is sympathizing with PSU?
Just because we think a organization should have limited powers doesn't mean we are sympathizing with PSU.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Thank you.
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Legend [15914]
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Varsity [205]
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i think you misunderstand our argument
Jul 23, 2012, 3:56 PM
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i'll address your question first, why was PSU so quick to accept the punishment? they frankly had no choice. the university is already going through a PR nightmare (yes, it's one of their making and they deserve it. i'm just pointing out a fact) if the university and their football program want their best chance at recovery and moving past this awful situation, they cannot try to dodge punishment no matter how right or wrong it may be. they had no choice but to sign the agreement to accept punishment otherwise the next day's headline reads "PSU trying to avoid responsiblity for child molestation." they just make it worse.
now towards my argument, i do not feel sorry for penn state as a whole. i agree that the people who were responsible for this heinous act should be punished. i even agree with them being fined and that money going towards the cause of preventing child abuse. what i don't agree with is the NCAA being ones to hand out that punishment. this is a matter for the legal system. this is an issue that the NCAA does not police. the NCAA is responsible for governing sports and making sure no team has a competitive advantage on and off the field. they handed out this punishment as a simple knee-jerk emotional reaction to this awful situation. every single person involved in this cover up should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law by our criminal justice system and i even hope that the victims sue Penn State on top of it and PSU gets the punishment it deserves but the NCAA deciding it is their responsibility to punish a football program (now void of all those responsible for this coverup) is analogous to the IRS deciding to keep my tax refund check because i got a speeding ticket. Yes, speeding is wrong and i can seriously hurt myself or others by doing it and i should pay all the consequences the law provides for but it is not the IRS's place to punish people for something they disagree with when it goes beyond their power. that is what the NCAA has done here and i only hope they don't set a precedent of stepping outside the power afforded to them to punish programs for something unrelated to competition. should the ncaa have punished UVA for the murder of Yeardley Love because both people involved were on the lacrosse team? No.
I just ask that you don't misconstrue our argument as sympathy for the conspirators at Penn State but simply as disdane for the NCAA abusing their power just because a terrible tragedy occurred
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Legend [15914]
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Can you be certain that PSU did not maintain a
Jul 23, 2012, 4:09 PM
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competitive advantage? I know how their recruiting class looks this year, but where would they be if this had come out 10 years ago? Hard to say. I admit it's a weak point.
I understand your point. It has merit. I also believe that their must be an authority to answer to when a whole athletic department has run wild. Normally I'd think that authority would be the president/bot. But they all failed. So when there is nobody to hold the athletic program accountable who should do it? NCAA governs athletics. I believe that is where they have jurisdiction.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Can you be certain that PSU did not maintain a
Jul 23, 2012, 4:11 PM
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Again, for the 100th time. PSU is currently recruiting #15 or better in ALL outlets. Even after all of this. Do you really think they would have done worse by doing the RIGHT thing? That's a horrible argument, it's hypothetical (silly at best) and punishing due to hypotheticals is ridiculous....
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Legend [15914]
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Admittedly so. Does that somehow strengthen your
Jul 23, 2012, 4:31 PM
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point? Or does it strengthen mine in showing the true lack of understanding regarding the crimes committed by the PSU loyalists? My hope is that it will provide a reality slap that wakes these people up and helps them get the priorities right. Athletic superiority cannot come before university academics and morals.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Admittedly so. Does that somehow strengthen your
Jul 23, 2012, 4:34 PM
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lol wakes who up??? the one's who did this are no longer there!!! who are you waking up? I'm sure the other 3 men who aren't dead are awaken. One's in jail and others are scared to death that charges are coming.
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Legend [15914]
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Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 4:37 PM
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who are still so blindly defending PSU in their community; ie, the Paterno family, the PSU students, fans, and anybody left in power who may feel like this is being blown out of proportion.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 4:41 PM
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They're defending PSU and rightfully so. PSU didn't commit a crime. 4 men did, 4 men of which that PSU has cut ties with. What are they supposed to do to them selves other than distance themselves from the criminals? Why is everyone so admant about demonizing the entire football team, new coaches, students and alum??? This makes ZERO sense....why do you want innocent blood? Why do you want penn tax payers to have to deal with this? For people to lose their jobs when budget cuts come to the school?
Answer me those questions with logic?
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Legend [15914]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 4:54 PM
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I'm not demonizing the football team. The kids are great, the staff great. They can transfer or stay. I hope they do well. The students and alum defending JoePa are demonizing themselves my aligning with a man who looked the other way from child rape for the protection of his own image.
I wish all the students the best and all the coaches well.
I don't want any blood.
I'm not asking Penn St taxpayers to do anything.
I feel sorry for the people who will lose their jobs bc of the poor decision making of the higher-ups. I feel sorry for them the same way I felt sorry for many of the bankers who lost their jobs when the bubble burst. All the more reason to have disdain for those few men. That does not mean the program as a whole should be free of punishment. I don't believe the loss of 6 months ave revenue will be as devastating as you hold on to. I think we both hope I'm right about that.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 5:04 PM
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It's ok buddy, you can transfer to another part of the country, away from your dream of playing for penn state and try to make the starting team at another college. Good look!
I like how yall make this out to be so great for the players and like they're all happy about it.
I would say very few are defending Joe Pa, they're just the loudest. The disgusted fans and alum are keeping quiet. Don't stereotype....
You do want blood. You're ok with all these ramifications and with all those affected negatively about this.
You don't have to ask Penn tax payers to pay up. They will be forced to when football can no longer pay for things it once paid for.
6 months revenue? Where do you get that from?
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 6:55 PM
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>
> 6 months revenue? Where do you get that from?
The $60 million fine was calculated as one year's revenue from the football program.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 23, 2012, 7:36 PM
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You understand thats not after expenses right? That's alot of money to go into the hole. And tax payers have to pick that up.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:20 AM
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That's why it's one year's REVENUE. It's coming from the athletic department's budget, I would imagine they have the same sort of set up as IPTAY where very little would come from taxpayers, and most would be from the various revenue streams the athletic department has, including donations.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:27 AM
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You don't get it.
They aren't just losing 60mil....That's the beginning of it. And I'm not getting where you think it's half. Their football revenue was 72.1 mil in 2010. They're profit was 50mil. PSU will be lucky if they break even with JUST the 60 mil fine.
Then there is the lack of post season for four years, lack of big10 bowl revenue sharing for 4 years, the product on the field will drop tremendously, more than likely causing a drop in ticket sales as well as merchandising.
And this isn't counting the law suit settlements that are coming (that should come) within the next couple years.
This goes far beyond 60mil and many people are going to hurt from it thanks to the NCAA sticking their nose where it shouldn't be.
The people who committed these crimes? They aren't liable for a penny of it.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:30 AM
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The people who committed those crimes will pay through civil lawsuits to the victims.
The people who committed those crimes did so under the name of Penn State. Penn State as an institution has to pay for the wrongdoings of the people who guided the ship.
Oh no, the fines are going to cripple the athletic department. Well, I guess covering up crimes to further athletics IS a bad idea afterall.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:34 AM
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The people who committed those crimes will pay through civil lawsuits to the victims.
As they should as well as criminal charges
The people who committed those crimes did so under the name of Penn State. Penn State as an institution has to pay for the wrongdoings of the people who guided the ship.
Which is a civil matter and had nothing to with football violations
Oh no, the fines are going to cripple the athletic department. Well, I guess covering up crimes to further athletics IS a bad idea afterall.
they're recruiting 15th, why do you think doing the RIGHT thing would have made that worse? LOIC? Sure, they should have been given the penalty for LOIC, not the penalty for excessive cheating, which punishes everyone except those needing of it
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:40 AM
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SO are you against any and all violations that the NCAA imposes? I just don't understand where you are coming from.
The sanctions are not because Sandusky raped kids. The sanctions are because the President, AD and football coach (amongst others) covered up a crime, failed to file the necessary reports (required by both NCAA bylaws and Federal Legislation), falsified reports they did happen to file, and did so in order to benefit the football program and athletic department as a whole. They enjoyed a competitive advantage by being able to sell the ideals of Penn State as being one of the good guys in college football for over a decade after the first accusations (which they also made go away) and were able to gain monetarily and as a beacon that the NCAA could always hold up as the way to do things right.
The penalties are so severe because the cover up and false reports were so egregious, but also because of who the school put themselves out to be.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:49 AM
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SO are you against any and all violations that the NCAA imposes? I just don't understand where you are coming from.
I jsut said they should get the penalty for LOIC. I'm against NCAA punishment when they're punishing a criminal matter. They're using the FREEH Report to base these sanctions. The Freeh report is regarding a criminal matter, not an investigation of sports violations. The NCAA is over stepping their charter.
The sanctions are not because Sandusky raped kids. The sanctions are because the President, AD and football coach (amongst others) covered up a crime, failed to file the necessary reports (required by both NCAA bylaws and Federal Legislation), falsified reports they did happen to file, and did so in order to benefit the football program and athletic department as a whole. They enjoyed a competitive advantage by being able to sell the ideals of Penn State as being one of the good guys in college football for over a decade after the first accusations (which they also made go away) and were able to gain monetarily and as a beacon that the NCAA could always hold up as the way to do things right.
what those men did were criminal. Not Football violations. There's no proof that they covered it up for football reasons rather than for self reputation and to prolong their personal careers. (which is what I believe) from reading the findings. In either case, the players and everyone else shouldn't have to suffer for these few men's decisions. LOIC can be proved, so give them what they gave USUCK
The penalties are so severe because the cover up and false reports were so egregious, but also because of who the school put themselves out to be.
ok so why doesn't the ncaa get off their ###, do their own investigation into the school, INCLUDING the BOT, which the freeh report didn't investigate, clean house of all with an inkling of involvement, lay down a 100mil fine, maybe even take a couple sholarships, and protect the innocent bystanders in this case?
Afterall, the NCAA was formed to protect and uphold the quality of life and education of the student athlete. In this case they are not. In this case they are using this as a PR move to flex their muscle, outside of their on processes and procedures, using an independent investigation for ulterior motives and that is as sickening as the cover up.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 9:58 AM
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So its a criminal matter and the NCAA doesn't have the right to punish an institution for the failings of its leadership? That's exactly what the NCAA is there to do.
There's certainly a mountain of evidence that a reasonable person could infer that this was done to benefit the football program. Even if that was not the intent, the football team still benefited from these crimes being covered up, and where the NCAA is able to, and did step in and penalize.
The NCAA is reserving the right to do their own investigation into the matter, and I am pretty sure they will just to make sure there is nothing more hidden beyond the Freeh report. The Freeh report was akin to Penn State self reporting the issue and the sanctions arose from that.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 10:02 AM
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No that is not what the NCAA is there to do. If a president of a school runs a ponzi scheme, the ncaa has ZERO to do with that. The NCAA was formed to police sport violations in the Athletic Department's of its member schools. Not crimes committed by college employees.
Name me one school who was ever sanctioned and players and/or boosters WEREN'T involved? Just one....(besides PSU of course)
Where did the football program benefit? Are you giving me hypothticals? IF they came it out with it it would have hurt them? That's BS. they're recruiting 15th, after all this. It may have even HELPED recruiting.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 10:07 AM
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The issue here wasn't just the president, it was the AD and the coach as well. The AD and the football coach bring this under the NCAA.
Because there hasn't been an incident of the like ever uncovered on a college campus before, the NCAA can't punish here?
The football program benefited because they were able to sell themselves as Penn State, the one school that does things the right way. Black cleats, dark blues no names on the back or whatever their motto was.
Penn State has 14 recruits right now, and they can sign 1 more. They won't be 15 for long.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Sorry, my wording was poor. I was referencing those
Jul 24, 2012, 10:20 AM
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The issue here wasn't just the president, it was the AD and the coach as well. The AD and the football coach bring this under the NCAA.
That is absolutely wrong. Just because a coach is involved doesn't mean the ncaa should be involved when it is a criminal matter. They are criminals who HAPPEN to work for the university AD. No violations directly related to football occured. If they were running a gambling ring, would you feel the same way about punishing those kids?
Because there hasn't been an incident of the like ever uncovered on a college campus before, the NCAA can't punish here?
There has been incidents of AD employees committing crimes but the NCAA never got involved. Because this is anational thing the NCAA is using it for PR purposes. They know with this mega conference thing looming that they are on life support. The NCAA is flexing it's muscle.
The football program benefited because they were able to sell themselves as Penn State, the one school that does things the right way. Black cleats, dark blues no names on the back or whatever their motto was.
And? Had they come out with it in 98 and demanded an investigation do you really thing that would have changed? Doing the right thing would have hurt them more than 15th in recruiting where they are RIGHT NOW? No it wouldn't have and saying so is only hypothetical and speculative.
Penn State has 14 recruits right now, and they can sign 1 more. They won't be 15 for long.
of course they won't because they just got screwed
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Varsity [205]
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again, i don't disagree with the punishment
Jul 23, 2012, 4:47 PM
[ in reply to Admittedly so. Does that somehow strengthen your ] |
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just the people issuing it. i also wouldn't disagree with the NCAA modifying their bylaws to be able to help police situations like this. but they can't up and decide that this is now their responsibility. they are a governing body, they have to stay within their powers allotted.
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Varsity [205]
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no, but that is apples and oranges
Jul 23, 2012, 4:17 PM
[ in reply to Can you be certain that PSU did not maintain a ] |
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there is no way to make that case. you could also argue that if they addressed the matter immediately, it wouldn't have made as big of news, and maybe joe pa would be held as a hero and maybe they would have recruited different players who might have been even better and won a national championship. you can play that what if game all day. but we do have somebody to hold them accountable. the criminal justice system. this is a crime, not recruiting violations. they should all be prosecuted and pay whatever consequences the law allows for. the fact that it happened to occur within an athletic department is irrelevant. if an athletic board runs wild by paying players, giving them impermissible benefits, hooking them up with agents, helping them cheat in classes, the NCAA can go nuts
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CU Guru [1203]
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Don't forget about Baylor Basketball
Jul 23, 2012, 6:46 PM
[ in reply to i think you misunderstand our argument ] |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baylor_University_basketball_scandal
One player murders another player.
They don't fine the school for the murder or for having given a scholarship to someone who might murder another person. They sanction the school and the coaches for participating in the cover-up of impermissible benefits uncovered during the self-investigation. If there were no impermissible benefits, it's just another campus tragedy.
They let the courts handle the murder.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:01 PM
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Don't confuse PSU Sympathizer with sympathizing with those who are guilty. I sympathize with the bystanders as any one with common sense and a good rational should.
IF you don't think people are going to lose their job, you're fooling yourself. PSU football, which pays many bills, is about to start losing money.
I want everyone involved to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law and then some. The NCAA is not needed for that to happen.
The punishment levied punishes no one involed, solves, nothing and only hurts even more people. If you can't understand that, I feel bad for you because you're an emotional person that loves knee jerk reactions that draws blood from the innocent.
I bet you're for gun control after Aurora as well huh?
Message was edited by: CUAtTheFinishLine®
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Legend [15914]
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Is it possible to have a knee-jerk reaction 6-8 months
Jul 23, 2012, 4:27 PM
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after the fact?
Some people in the athletic program will likely lose their jobs. Neither of us can know how many for sure, and I even agree that it is unfortunate for the innocent. However, the reality is that innocent people are affected daily by the poor decisions of others. It does not mean that there should be no message sent through punitive measures. That point is poor.
20 scholarships, 4 bowl games, and a half years average revenue is not crippling to the athletic department. They still have a team, they will still sell tix and they will still be supported by their fans. They will likely have a bad team, but in reality, they only miss a half year's revenue and 4 bowl games. Is that really crippling?
The punishment is aimed at the athletic department which did cover-up the crimes, it sets up $60m for abused children, and hurts a few. That's what I understand.
My only opinion on gun control is that I wish we just went back to to the days of fist fights or even a sword at your side. Aurora was a tragedy and has no place in this discussion. I work trauma ICU and am saddened by the endless pointless violence, many of which are GSW, that I take care of on a daily basis.
Always enjoyed your posts and will continue to do so. but you're wrong on this one.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Is it possible to have a knee-jerk reaction 6-8 months
Jul 23, 2012, 4:28 PM
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NCAA has bypassed all of their processes, denied PSU due process afforded to all other universities and used an independent investigation (Freeh) and have come out with harsh sanctions not even 15 days after its release. That's a knee jerk reaction and all of those supporting the ncaa wielding this unprecedented power are part of that knee jerk reaction.
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Legend [15914]
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If Penn St agreed with you, they wouldn't have so
Jul 23, 2012, 4:34 PM
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quickly agreed to to the punishment.
Too bad they didn't have the same knee jerk reaction when they knew Sandusky was ###### 10 year old boys.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: If Penn St agreed with you, they wouldn't have so
Jul 23, 2012, 4:36 PM
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They have no choice to agree. What are they going to do? And some of the board members have already spoken out against it.
And quit saying they! It was 3 men who covered it up. The BOT fired all involved as soon as they knew what had happened and it came out in November. Firing JoePa last Novemeber took a lot of balls months before the Freeh Report.
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Legend [15914]
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Well, if the BOT felt the punishment to be unfair,
Jul 23, 2012, 4:44 PM
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they, the BOT, could have not accepted the penalties and requested a full NCAA investigation as well by suggesting they wanted to be thorough and review the circumstances from every angle possible.
It would not be hard to say something like, we are going to allow all of the authorities to do all of their investigations so that we can be certain these things never happen again. Instead, in my opinion, they chose the easier way.
It only took balls to fire Joe bc he'd been there forever. Remove the emotion and tradition and its an obvious call.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Well, if the BOT felt the punishment to be unfair,
Jul 23, 2012, 4:48 PM
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But you can't ignore how long he had been there and the student body sentitment at the time. They ignored those things and did the right thing MONTHS before JoePa was guilty of anything like he is now.
NCAA used PSU's own report. The problem is, they didn't give PSU a hearing or allow them an answer like they do others. Usually the NCAA has an infractions committee that reviews it for months. PSU of course is going to roll over right now, they have bigger fish to fry.
Still doesn't make what NCAA is doing right. they're over stepping their boundaries in a PR stunt. That's sickening to me.
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Legend [15914]
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His time there was irrelevant. I applaud them for
Jul 23, 2012, 4:59 PM
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firing him. He was guilty for years, not months though. But I know what you mean.
PSU could have asked for a review. They didn't. You're defending something even PSU didn't feel was worth defending.
I don't believe it to be a PR stunt. If that were the case, they would have done their own investigation and drug it out for 6-12 months. Everyone wanted this done. So why be mad at the NCAA?
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Legend [19586]
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Re: His time there was irrelevant. I applaud them for
Jul 23, 2012, 5:01 PM
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lol Look at everything else the NCAA has ignored in other places. This is nothing but a PR stunt or else the NCAA would have gone the normal process with it's punishment. This is a show of muscle.
PSU doesn't have time nor resources to fight it. They much more to focus on. Just because PSU rolled over, doesn't mean they deserve what they got. At least not the players, students and alum.
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Starter [356]
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Re: Is it possible to have a knee-jerk reaction 6-8 months
Jul 23, 2012, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Is it possible to have a knee-jerk reaction 6-8 months ] |
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The due process argument is interesting, but legally may fall short. First, the NCAA is a volunteer organization, so requiring a hearing is nice, but may not be constitutionally mandated. Secondly, in order to have due process, PSU needs to show a continuing liberty (property) interest in having a football team.
Just because you have a team one year and make expenditures/preparations for a continuing year doesn't mean that you have a continuing property interest, which is covered under liberty in the due process clauses of the constitution.
For example, a non-tenured teacher just has to be informed that the contract is not going to be renewed, whiled a tenured teacher has a continuing property right and is required to have a hearing. A very nuanced argument can be made that having an NCAA football team is akin to being tenured, but not knowing the bylaws, and knowing that you (as a member school) are subject to any and all changes does not bode well.
Yes, the NCAA does have a process for rule changes and such, but most of that is set up as "advisory" rather than procedural, which means that just because they have procedures, doesn't mean those procedures are necessary, and rise to the level of constitutional protections.
As far as "this is a criminal matter", yes, the child rape is a criminal matter, what the NCAA is penalizing is the actions of 4 or 5 individuals who attempted, and did so successfully for many years, to cover up the actions of a member of the staff to benefit the athletic department. That is where the sanctions are coming from, not from Sandusky's actions.
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Head Coach [762]
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outside NCAA jurisdiction for sure!
Jul 23, 2012, 4:12 PM
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they deserve punishment, no one is saying that. NCAA has stuck its nose where it does not belong.
Penn St accetped it b/c they have guilt and wnat to move on. they will regret this later for sure. of course, Admin people always are willing to restrain Athletics
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CU Guru [1357]
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Re: outside NCAA jurisdiction for sure!
Jul 23, 2012, 4:52 PM
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10:1 Unethical Conduct
Unethical conduct by a prospective or enrolled student-athlete or a current or former institutional staff member, which includes any individual who performs work for the institution or the athletics department even if he or she does not receive compensation for such work, may include, but is not limited to, the following:
(d) Knowingly furnishing or knowingly influencing others to furnish the NCAA or the individual’s institution false or misleading information concerning an individual’s involvement in or knowledge of matters relevant
to a possible violation of an NCAA regulation
19.01.2 Exemplary Conduct.
Individuals employed by or associated with member institutions for the administration, the conduct or the coaching of intercollegiate athletics are, in the final analysis, teachers of young
people. Their responsibility is an affirmative one, and they must do more than avoid improper conduct or questionable acts. Their own moral values must be so certain and positive that those younger and more pliable will be influenced by a fine example. Much more is expected of them than of the less critically placed citizen.
10.01.1 Honesty and Sportsmanship.
"Individuals employed by (or associated with) a member institution to administer, conduct or coach intercollegiate athletics and all participating student-athletes shall act with honesty and sportsmanship at all times so that intercollegiate athletics as a whole, their institutions and they, as individuals, shall represent the honor and dignity of fair play and the generally recognized high standards associated with wholesome competitive sports."
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Legend [19586]
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Re: outside NCAA jurisdiction for sure!
Jul 23, 2012, 4:55 PM
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where did you get that from? link?
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CU Guru [1357]
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Re: outside NCAA jurisdiction for sure!
Jul 23, 2012, 5:01 PM
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Google "ncaa compliance basics"
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Know-it-all [2692]
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If they had guilt, they'd do the right thing and shut down
Jul 23, 2012, 6:36 PM
[ in reply to outside NCAA jurisdiction for sure! ] |
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the program themselves. It has been used to facilitate child rape. There is no coming back.
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Letterman [294]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:33 PM
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Does the legal system have any right to punish Penn State as an institution? (just curious to those who think someone other than the NCAA should punish PSU)
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Legend [19586]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:36 PM
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Penn DOE and Fed DOE can.
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Letterman [294]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:39 PM
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ah right I had not thought about that, guessing the DOE would've slapped PSU a fine if it had come to that?
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Legend [19586]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 23, 2012, 4:45 PM
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certainly could, or could hold money to them. Could punish them in many ways I'm sure.
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MVP [503]
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Amen! Well stated.***
Jul 23, 2012, 4:45 PM
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CU Medallion [52595]
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The alternative given to them was a 4-yr death penalty
Jul 23, 2012, 5:14 PM
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According to Joe Schad of ESPN.
Yes, they got off easy by signing the 'no contest' deal.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: The alternative given to them was a 4-yr death penalty
Jul 23, 2012, 5:16 PM
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Exactly, they had no choice...
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CU Guru [1210]
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What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:08 PM
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to deserve to be punished
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Starter [356]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:14 PM
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Then there should never be any sanctions? The USC thing with Reggie Bush must really get you upset, or the guys at UNC, or the tattoos at tOSU once all the offenders are gone?
The student athletes did nothing, and they are not being punished, they are free to leave, and don't have to sit out a year. Sure it's a tough thing to move that quickly and start over, but they aren't necessarily being punished here.
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CU Guru [1210]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:17 PM
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comparing what happened to usc,osu and unc its ridiculous. This should have been something they punish the school for not coaches and players who had NOTHING to do with it.
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Starter [356]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:22 PM
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So how would you suggest they punish the school, but not the players, and in a way that fits the crime?
The crime being "unethical conduct" under the NCAA laws for the cover up of various crimes around the football program and in the administration.
I don't see how the players are being punished, they are free to leave and pursue other opportunities.
And yes, this is an NCAA sanction, so you look at other sanctions by the NCAA. Because there were no players involved in this, is that your angle? The USC things, all the offending players were way gone, but the new players were "punished", those analogies are spot on save for the severity of the sanctions.
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CU Guru [1210]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:31 PM
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Its not that easy to just up and leave...The difference is that this was a horrendous crime committed by someone not onb the staff since what 01? You fire everyone involved(which I think they have) and you hammer the school itself with all kinds of various academic restrictions and fine the #### out of it...which would hurt the school worse than hammering the football program and putting a pu nishment on coaches who have had zero to do with what happened and forcing players to make a change or stay and be punished
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Know-it-all [2692]
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You could use this argument to deflect literally any
Jul 23, 2012, 6:35 PM
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punishment for any school. All the NCAA needs to do, IMHO is release kids whose schools are penalized from having to sit out a year for transferring. Otherwise, what the hell else can you do to avoid punishing them and still have an option to punish schools that cheat or, in this case, use the institution of their football program to house and hide a predator for years.
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Starter [356]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: What did the student athletes do ] |
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Except that everyone who covered up the crime in 01 (Sandusky was off the staff in 99) was still on the staff until the grand jury came out in November.
The players can still play, they jsut won't win, so you're saying its not fair because they won't be able to field a team as good as they had in the past? What about huge fines that would impair the football department's ability to recruit, sure they might still have 25 scholies per year, but they wouldnt be able to make the expenditures to recruit the same talent. Or what about coaches, fines could make it so they can't hire the same caliber coach?
The poor athletes is a silly argument and has no place in this discussion in my mind.
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CU Guru [1210]
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Re: What did the student athletes do
Jul 23, 2012, 6:45 PM
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agree to disagree
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Rock Defender [54]
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they can transfer, but to say do not punish PSU for the sake
Jul 23, 2012, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to What did the student athletes do ] |
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of some football players shows your total lack of comprehension of the depth of this situation.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: they can transfer, but to say do not punish PSU for the sake
Jul 24, 2012, 8:48 AM
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Not for the sake of football players, for the sake of millions of people including penn tax payers.
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Rock Defender [54]
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all people that contributed to the culture that created this
Jul 24, 2012, 11:55 AM
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and they all deserve some blame and punishment. a football program is a privilege.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: all people that contributed to the culture that created this
Jul 24, 2012, 1:05 PM
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so PSU fans, players and alum contriubuted to the culture of rapoing young boys and covering it up? Quit being ridiculous...
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Know-it-all [2692]
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Penn State should have enough shame to reject the NCAA's
Jul 23, 2012, 6:32 PM
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decision and shut down the football program on their own. The Penn State fans who are apologists about all this disgust me.
If this happened at Clemson I would be ashamed to have ever support the school, and that is how one should thing. I love what we have, but it isn't worth hiding something like that to preserve.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Agree, Point. What kills me is to let them still be on TV.***
Jul 23, 2012, 8:39 PM
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All-TigerNet [11435]
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Re: Agree, Point. What kills me is to let them still be on TV.***
Jul 23, 2012, 9:13 PM
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Taking them off TV will hurt the Big 10 and every team that plays them
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Know-it-all [2692]
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Putting them on TV hurts the Big Ten in a much more longterm
Jul 24, 2012, 11:31 AM
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fashion.
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Rock Defender [54]
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we were denied tv for 3 years, the 3rd year by the acc which
Jul 24, 2012, 11:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: Agree, Point. What kills me is to let them still be on TV.*** ] |
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hurt every team in the conference, but they deemed it ok. teams are on in that conference 13 times a year, missing 1 game will not hurt them and they still get the money. stupid lame excuse. next.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: we were denied tv for 3 years, the 3rd year by the acc which
Jul 24, 2012, 12:01 PM
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The early 80s =/= today when it comes to TV.
You comparing the two is just another sign of your ignorance.
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Rock Defender [54]
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Who in the hell is sympathizing with PSU??
Jul 23, 2012, 7:39 PM
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I haven't seen ANYONE doing that?
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Legend [15914]
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Should have said emphathizing.
Jul 23, 2012, 8:24 PM
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Apologies. Good point though.
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Rock Defender [54]
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You're speaking from emotion and not logic.
Jul 23, 2012, 10:03 PM
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I don't think there's anyone in here who thinks that what happened is acceptable or excusable.
There are a lot of assumptions you're making when you say that this was all done to protect the image, reputation, and money making capabilities of the football program. And giving the NCAA the right to punish them for this is like giving the courts the ability to charge us and convict us without due-process.
The decisions were made by a small group of people and just b/c they were people in high decisions doesn't mean the the entire university administration was behind a conspiracy to allow child abuse to continue.
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Varsity [238]
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 24, 2012, 2:47 AM
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My whole family agrees, if this happened at Clemson, we would self impose any support for a very long time until I was comfortable with the new climate. One of integrity, lawfulness and academics first. Nothing should EVER fog the real issue. There were little boys raped and defiled at the hands of an employee of psu and all his superiors were aware at some point and none went to the Lawful authorities, which would have stopped further injury. Their punishment could have been worse and psu was expecting it to be, that is why they chose to accept the punishment that was handed to them. I will say hopefully what I'm hearing from the univ. is that they understand the people who were in the know made grave decisions not only for themselves but for an entire University and community. And maybe, maybe this will CHANGE the whole perception that its ok for things like this happen, as long as we put Dollar signs in front of doing the right thing.
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Legend [19586]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 17257
Joined: 7/25/07
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Re: For CUatthefinishline and any other PSU sympathizers.
Jul 24, 2012, 8:50 AM
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I would probably forego any support to Clemson as well, but I still wouldn't think it was an issue for the NCAA to get involved in.
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Orange Blooded [2480]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 2675
Joined: 9/17/10
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Can I just say that I'm extremely jealous of your hike.....
Jul 24, 2012, 8:34 AM
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After I graduated from Clemson I moved to Lake Tahoe to experience the "mountain life" I so deeply fell in love with during yearly winter ski trips to Colorado and Utah while growing up. I stayed for 9 months: a winter, spring, and summer. It was the best decision (besides going to college at Clemson because that was a no-brainer) I have ever made in my life and I miss it dearly! But my love for Clemson drew me back here. I now own a house in Easley. 
And I agree with your perspective on the PSU issue.
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Replies: 89
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COLLEGE: A three-year starter at strong safety for Clemson, finished his career with 234 tackles and 11 interceptions.
