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Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:48 AM
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What’s going on in there?
Careful what you think. Think good thoughts and you’ll be Ok. Think bad thoughts, and well,…
That might not be all bad. My grandad used to say he wasn’t really afraid of Hell…especially since he had so many friends there.
But I wasn’t like that. Not as a child at least. Visions of the End of the World used to scare the hell out of me. And nothing was more terrifying than the Book of Revelation. We had a pretty fire-and-brimstone church, and so our pastor tapped into that particular book quite a bit to terrorize us kids.
He also also tapped into the church secretaries. That may or may not have sent him to Hell, but it did send him out the door, looking for a new job.
Today, Lakes of Fire, 7-Headed Dragons, and Rivers of Blood don’t really scare me as much as they used too. I guess I’m becoming more like my grandad.
But those images in Revelation have stayed with me for a lifetime; which was the whole point of them I suppose. So while there are many other views about the End, this scope will be about the specific one presented in Revelation. So prepare for the End of the World!
It’s a vision that’s been around for a long, long, time, and it’s comprised of a lot of different concepts. But those concepts haven’t always been exactly the same. For instance, to an ancient Jew, Armageddon was an actual place he had probably been to, right down the road; not an ethereal battle somewhere between Heaven and earth.
The Book of Revelation is a very specific Christian view, circa 95 AD or so, from a very specific type of Christian; a Jewish-Christian. There aren’t many of them left now, because Judaism and Christianity have separated so much over time. Today, it seems like a strange, incompatible concept. But back then, almost every Christian, at least the non-Gentile ones, was a Jewish-Christian to some degree.
What else would they be? If you grew up and spent your entire adult life as a Jew, and then one day decided to follow Christ, you can imagine you might hang on to some of what your previous life had been. Maybe a little, maybe a lot, but some for sure.
You couldn’t even read Christian literature in the earliest days, because there was none. You had some Greek and Roman culture from your overlords, the Jewish Torah, your old traditions, and a new oral revelation, courtesy of Jesus, and later Paul and some others. And that was it.
“I think he said ‘Blessed are the Greek.’ Good for them. Very nice folks, the Greeks are.”
We’ll take a closer look at that Jewish-Christian aspect of Book of Revelation over time, because I find it particularly fascinating. It’s sort of like the differences between a ‘56 and a ‘57 Chevy. Subtle, but there. And if you know what to look for, you can find them.
Take, for instance, the four creatures from the very Jewish Ezekiel 1,
4… in the fire was what looked like four living creatures. Each of the four had the face of a human being, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle.
And compare that with the very Jewish-Christian Revelation 4, written several hundred years later:
7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle.
You’ll note that in Ezekiel, all 4 creatures have all 4 faces.
But in Revelation, all 4 creatures have just one face.
Close, but not quite the same. Like the difference between a ’56 and a ’57 Chevy. Why the change? Those are the kinds of thing we’re gonna try to find out.
So old fears aside, I’m putting on my big-boy pants, wiping away my tears, and taking a deep-dive into Revelation. This time from a historical, rather than a trembling child’s, perspective. (Pro-tip to pastors: Don’t scare your young parishioners, and don’t bang the staff.)
We’re lucky in our quest, because the End of the World happens to be a very popular topic. Turns out that a lot of people are curious about how they will spend their eternity. And that curiosity is called ‘eschatology’ – the study of the how the world will end, and what may follow. Sometimes it’s a positive outlook, but often it’s negative. And that reminds me of the movie ‘As Good as it Gets.’
Jack Nicholson got the Oscar for his hilarious portrayal of the hopelessly caustic, hopelessly OCD-crazed axxhole, Melvin Udall. Melvin sums up his dysfunctional life, and his dysfunctional friends, in a quote as they are all headed out for a doomed road-trip together:
Melvin: “Lots of people have happy, normal lives. Pretty stories about picnics, and boats on lakes, and noodle salads. Just no one in this car.”
Pretty dour. And that’s like the historical Jewish vision of the End Times.
Lots of other religions have happy thoughts, blissfully spending your life getting closer to God, and then happily enjoying your eternity together with him. With no threat of an eternal axx-whipping hanging over your head.
Just not Judaism.
If you pass the End of the World test, you do get a happy life in a big city with streets of gold someday. But the path to get there involves a lot of pain, a lot of punishment, a lot of judgement, and a lot of vengeance from God.
The Jewish vision is so dark in contrast to some other views that it even has its own name – Apocalyptic Literature. Usually, the term apocalyptic evokes just the fire-and-brimstone destruction stuff. But it also means that God doesn’t generally tell you ‘directly’ what’s coming; he uses a messenger.
The basic outline of any Apocalyptic Literature, in the Bible or elsewhere, is:
1) God sends his plans by private courier to one selected recipient.
2) That one guy has to tell everyone else in the world
3) The plan, which includes a Judgment Day, eventually comes
4) God wreaks vengeance on the bad
5) God provides a better life for the good
It’s a simple enough framework, but it’s definitely carrot and stick type stuff. Do good, get good things. Do bad, or miss the memo all together, and get your axx whipped.
Fortunately, all those big Jewish national disasters over history have all turned out to be false alarms regarding the actual end of the world. They might have been an end to the Jew’s immediate world, like losing 10 tribes or getting exiled, but the sun still came up the next morning for someone, even if it was for the bad guys.
And so Revelation, as an End Time predictor in the greater sense, isn’t really unique. The Jews had been prophesying about the end of the world for centuries before the first Christians even existed. The early Christians then had to re-interpreted those older prophecies in a way that accounted for Jesus’s life, death, resurrection, and his unexpected role as a Messiah.
When Paul, for instance, read Daniel or Micah in his youth, he had to believe in the Jewish interpretation of the End in those books. What else would he think? He was a Jew. Jesus hadn’t even ministered yet, nor had Paul received his own vision.
Both Jesus and Paul probably knew a book like Zechariah upside down and backwards in their youth. Jesus definitely knew Zechariah 9:9, about the King of the Jews riding into Jerusalem. He may have later played coy with Pilate by saying “You have said so,” but he had to know the image he was presenting by specifically addressing that prediction. He even went out of his way to find a colt for himself, as per prophecy.
So what then did Jesus and Paul also think about Zechariah 9:8, and its promise regarding the end time, and all eternity, for that matter? If they knew 9:9, they must have known 9:8.
“But I will encamp at my temple to guard it against marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch.”
Despite that verse, written around 550 BCE, both Jesus and Paul spent their entire lives under military occupation. So when they read “Never again will an oppressor overrun my people” while looking at Roman soldiers right outside of their windows, how did they process that? They surely must have said, “Yep, those are definitely oppressors, but somehow the world still goes on. What’s up with that?”
We can’t know, of course, so it’s a rhetorical question. But my greater point is that interpretations change over time. Zechariah wrote his book under very specific circumstances, and he said so…
1:1 “In the eighth month of the second year of Darius, the word of the LORD came to the prophet Zechariah…”
At the time, Israel was in Babylonian captivity, and God’s message to Zechariah was 1) I’m gonna get you out of here, 2) we’re gonna rebuild Jerusalem together, 3) there’s gonna be hell to pay for your enemies, and 4) you’ll be protected forever after. Pretty standard stuff. Refer to the “Outline for Apocalyptic Literature” earlier in this post.
And prophecies 1 and 2 did happen. But not 3, and not 4. The Israelites got free, and Jerusalem was rebuilt. But it was also oppressed, many more times, by many others, throughout history. Jesus and Paul were reading Zechariah over 500 years after it was penned, under Roman rule. So time specific prophecies aren’t always universal prophecies. And while Zechariah may have thought that Jerusalem being restored to her former glory would be the crowning culmination of all human existence, and a herald of eternal peace forever after, it turned out to be just another day.
Nevertheless, it was that very prediction from Zechariah, and others like it in Daniel, and Micah, and Ezekiel, and some apocryphal works, that provided an ongoing vision of what the end of the world might look like. A vision of the Jews and Jerusalem finally living in eternal peace, rather than in eternal turmoil.
The Book of Daniel: Helpful hints for living in eternal captivity. Or so the Jews must have thought in 540 BCE. But even that view of the End changed just one year later in 539 BCE, when Cyrus the Great showed up. Once you are freed from captivity, how can you live out the rest of your life in in captivity? Another End of the World false alarm. Thankfully.
So that’s where we’ll start, building up a picture, piece by piece, from the oldest known Jewish ideas about the end of the world. Those views start pretty small, and get way bigger over time. We’ll find what fell away and what remained, and how those Jewish views ultimately led to the Christian view, culminating in John’s Revelation.
They’re very, very similar, as you might expect. Similar enough that one might not even notice the differences if they’re not looking closely. Like with a ‘56 or ‘57 Chevy. But they’re not quite exactly the same either, and that’s where the really good stuff is.
Which we’ll get into next time.
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All-In [47913]
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the contributions of John Nelson Darby to the misunderstanding of
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Mar 14, 2024, 9:06 AM
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John's Revelation cannot be overemphasized.
Before Darby, most of the Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant world understood Revelation for what it is, apocalyptic literature written to offer hope to an oppressed people.
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Re: the contributions of John Nelson Darby to the misunderstanding of
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Mar 14, 2024, 9:34 AM
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Thanks for that. I'd never heard of him, so I'll definitely check out his views.
>written to offer hope to an oppressed people.
That's one of the primary job descriptions of every prophet that ever lived, along with some fire-and-brimstone stuff just for good measure.  ">
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Hard pass, no bewbs***
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Mar 14, 2024, 9:58 AM
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Re: Hard pass, no bewbs***
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Mar 14, 2024, 10:05 AM
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
Mar 14, 2024, 10:05 AM
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One slight correction. I said:
>At the time, Israel was in Babylonian captivity,
That's "true-ish." There were still Jews living in Babylon, and Zechariah implies he was one of them. That's because not all Jew returned to Jerusalem in one lump; they returned in waves over time.
Zechariah specifically says he was writing in the time of Darius, which would have been after Cyrus's decree to free the Jews. So technically, it was not the time "of Babylonian captivity." It was the time immediately after "Babylonian captivity." A very slight, but important distinction.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 1:50 PM
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Did Paul or Jesus ever address the fact that the predictions were wrong?
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
Mar 14, 2024, 2:17 PM
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I'm not sure how they interpreted them, which is why I posed the rhetorical question.
I picked Jesus and Paul a representatives for all the Jews at that time, because Jesus actually taught the priests, and Paul was considered a "Pharisee of pharisees."
The point being, both of these guys were smart, and probably educated to a level well above an average citizen.
9:8 might not have been an issue for Joe-blow Jew on the street, but I can't imagine it didn't stand out to Jesus and Paul, in different places and at different times obviously, since they never met.
It could very well have been that in their time, Zechariah saying "Never" was understood as hyperbole. There were earlier occasions, before Rome, where Jerusalem was occupied. The big one was the Seleucids under Antiochus IV in about 130 BCE, who was so hated he's considered to be the model for the anti-Christ. We'll get to him eventually.
But in context, Zech 9 is presented as the words of God himself, with stuff like "I will take the blood from their mouths..." and "I will encamp at my temple." So that's not Zech talking, that's Yahweh.
It's baffling. Because Jesus truly had to believe it was the prophecy of the End Time. As I noted, he could have just walked into Jerusalem...but he deliberately stopped and got a colt. So he respected Zechariah as a prophet, and was following his prophecy to a tee. His actions show that he thought Zechariah was right.
So there's obviously something we are missing between now and back then. Some interpretation, some translation, some cultural situation that's not obvious to us now.
I'll have to check the original Hebrew. It may be a translation thing. That is, someone juiced up Zechariah's words to give them an "umph," or a definitiveness they didn't originally have.
It's a real mystery, though.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 2:52 PM
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The Zechariah promise for the temple was correct. It stood until Jesus entered it, and when the veil was torn the temple ceased to exist, even by the Law, and with it the promise; the building that formerly housed it didnt last another generation. Jesus is the temple. Anyone looking for fulfilled prophecies can find no better one.
How did the Jews of the day see it? Depends on who you'd ask. Peter would have understood it. So yes, I imagine those Jews futilely refabricating a new veil.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 3:17 PM
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I know it's frustrating. You explain, no one comprehends. The things we've known for years is a gift of God. It's called understanding. It follow knowledge and precedes wisdom. One more step to go for me.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 3:33 PM
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Reweaving that thing would have been no mean feat. It was a monster. So, I've thought it would be interesting go back in time and walk into the meeting where they're planning it out.
What you guys talking about?
You're kidding! Torn? But fixable, right?
Wait, torn all the way? In two? Ain't no way!
Well, okay, but that thing's like a slab of cedar. What might have caused it?
Don't know, huh? Anything unusual happen that day?
Think you might want to investigate this a bit before taking a year to make another one?
How did God let that happen, anyway? Don't know, huh?
If God let that happen, why make another one?
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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They saw the miracles and knew the Hebrew Bible as well as anyone.
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Mar 15, 2024, 12:11 AM
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They had exactly what many today have, an intellectual knowledge of God. While there remained a handful of men who actually trusted in God most of the leaders were obsessed with wealth and power. Wealth came from gifts and sacrifices given to God via the local synagogues and the Temple while the political power came from Rome.
In no other time before would the Hebrew people have crucified their Savior. It was the perfect setup.
I've heard preachers claim that Satan was behind the crucifixion. That can not be. He knows God's Word so much better than any human other than Christ. He knew God doesn't halfasz anything. He knew people would receive the message of love from God and turn their backs on their selfish and hateful ways.
Jesus was crucified simply because of greed, lust for power and pride of office for all those involved. Satan might plant an idea or concept but the sins are ours to bear without Christ.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 3:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ? ] |
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Where does it say it was promised until Jesus entered it? It literally says never again.
It seems like a straightforward reading contradicts what you are saying.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:18 PM
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It literally says that never again will an oppressor overrun His people. That has been fulfilled. Is true today. Is true especially for the Christians around the world being killed for that reason. The veil was torn. Jesus is the temple. The building is gone.
You reject Jesus. Fine. The promise stands fulfilled.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:20 PM
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>You reject Jesus. Fine. The promise stands fulfilled.
Jesus never showed up buddy, hard to reject someone who isn't around
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
Mar 14, 2024, 4:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ? ] |
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>You reject Jesus. Fine. The promise stands fulfilled.
Also, can we not have a normal conversation? What's with the BS, I made a valid argument.
Calm down maybe and engage in a forum like a sane person.
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
Mar 14, 2024, 4:38 PM
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I think you misunderstood. I was talking a bit of shorthand, nothing personal at all. I said you reject Jesus (which you do), in the sense that you therefore can't accept a messianic view of prophecy. That is a given, and that is fine. Yet that doesn't mean that the Zech promise wasn't fulfilled.
There was nothing personal in that. "Hammer ... everything looks like a nail." Consider the possibility that you are looking for a fight, so everything looks like a fight.
You take every opportunity to say what we all know, that you dont buy any of it. Fine; never try to talk you out of it. So, when I say you reject Jesus, which you have said in many ways, you get mad. Calm down.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
Mar 14, 2024, 5:10 PM
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>You take every opportunity to say what we all know, that you dont buy any of it. Fine.
Welcome to what is a called a Forum, where people discuss things with different views.
>Fine. Never try to talk you out of it.
Did someone say otherwise? Why can't it just be a convo.
>So, when I say you reject Jesus, which you have said in many ways, you get mad. Calm down
there it is
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 3:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ? ] |
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The first dispensation was without law, second under law, third under grace. The fourth will be the millennium kingdom.
This is why Paul warned the Greeks of the Church at Thessaloniki of the rapture and wrath then to come, 4th chapter. He told them plainly that we'd be gone before the troubled times got too much to bear via rapture. It happens either before the trouble starts or soon after it begins is my take. IDK and it doesn't matter. What matters is that God delivers His people from His wrath by the blood of His Son, past, present and future.
The Thessalonians freaked out so Paul wrote them again explaining that the Antichrist had not yet come but the spirit of the antichrist (devil) was already operating.
Often when the Bible speaks of end times it's talking about the dispensation of grace. Thus, we are in the last days since Christ died two thousand years ago.
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 3:59 PM
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Dispensationalism is like watching a movie series out of order, but being absolutely convinced you understand the plot better than everyone else.
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:21 PM
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He's the one I would ask, so I think he might.
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:33 PM
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This is the same guy who suggested rain didn't start until the supposed global flood, yes?
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:43 PM
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The very one.
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 5:50 PM
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Hmm
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: It was dispensational. ] |
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I know some good ones...Pulp Fiction, Memento, and a personal fave, because I'm so into dark, brooding mysteries:
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:19 PM
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Mulholland took me several years, and about 5 viewings, to finally figure it out...if I did, lol. Here's one of the best scenes, and one of my very favs from any movie, because in context it's just so random, weird, creepy, and chillingly ominous. A real "W T F" is going on in this movie?" moment. Still gives me the willies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd5HEJdcBwM
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:25 PM
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And as long as I am hijacking my own thread with completely random movie scenes, here's a real creep-azoid from Lost Highway, featuring Baretta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZowK0NAvig
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 4:16 PM
[ in reply to It was dispensational. ] |
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I agree with you guys on the Temple first as limestone, and then as Jesus's body, no problem there.
What I'm trying to understand is the occupation part, and how Jesus or Paul, or any Jew really, would have reconciled that back then.
I suppose they could have seen Zechariah's prophecy as dispensational, though the wording seems odd to me. I'm actually planning on doing a more in-depth post on Zech in the near future, but the question came up and got me thinking in detail about it.
I guess if I were a Jew reading 9:8 in Zechariah's own time, I'd say "Sure, that sounds like a future event."
But if I were Jewish-Christian reading it in say 40 AD, after Jesus D&R, I'd think, "Ok, but who would be marauding Jesus [the new Temple] in Heaven? And why would God be camping by him?"
The wording just feels odd.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I need more understanding of this too.
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Mar 14, 2024, 6:01 PM
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I pretend and present myself to know it all. I'm far short of having knowledge like Jesus and Paul.
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Re: I need more understanding of this too.
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Mar 14, 2024, 8:04 PM
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>I need more understanding of this too
Then we're on our learning journey together!
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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Saddle up pilgrim, we're burning daylight!***
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Mar 15, 2024, 12:12 AM
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 10:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: It was dispensational. ] |
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If I understand you, your question about our reading of Zech is in your last sentence: "... who would be marauding Jesus [the new Temple] in Heaven? And why would God be camping by him?" Great question, because the answer is of course 'nobody', which is why the wording is then odd. All I can do is share what has comes to mind whenever I read Zech, right or wrong:
If the limestone temple became Jesus, his 'chosen people' transformed also, from a specific race to a spiritual family. We are brothers and sisters, Jesus being 'the first born among us', and that temple of folks will never be overrun, as evidenced by His resurrection. The world can do what the world does, to me the same as to anyone, but now it can't hurt me.
It is often difficult for me to read Hebrews 2. Jesus faced daily disrespect and rejection, then finally public humiliation and execution, the outcome being that when I am facing one of my many sins and its consequences, I read in verse 11, "Both the one who makes people holy, and those who are made holy, are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters." Not ashamed. Proud. Me, who is sending him to trial, he is proud to call brother. Sometimes I have to take a breath.
That family is his chosen people.
But I also put on the other hat. If I was a Jew from 500 BC to Jesus's time, I would read Zech 9 totally differently. Doesn't sound messianic at all, does it? Wouldn't to me. It's like Jesus telling them, "Go find this guy, and he'll have a donkey ready." He was aware of that verse, and anybody can find a donkey. No big deal. It is not prophetic unless he can pull off the resurrection, and an indestructible veil gets torn in two, and an entirely new reality happens that reveals what verse 9 is.
But if that didn't happen, it reads the other way. I agree with you on that.
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 14, 2024, 11:33 PM
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That's a great take. Interpretation is the eternal bug-a-boo.
One just never can be sure what the writers meant back then. Sometimes the text is apparently figurative, and sometimes apparently literal. And most times, it's gray.
I've got a segment on that in an upcoming piece - the inherent difficulties in sorting through meanings. Which is why this board, and all the varying opinions, are so great. It's very easy to get channeled into one mode of thought. I find myself doing it all the time - those lurking, unconscious biases we've often spoken of, you know. ">
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 15, 2024, 1:42 AM
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Ha. We all have them.
Off topic, but just like I would like to sit in on a how-do-we-reweave-the-veil meeting, just to have a little fun, I would like to be there an hour after it was torn. As I understand it, that exposed the holy of holies. A guy could die for going in there. But there it was, right out in the open! Gasp! Had to be some consternation. Be fun to walk right up to it, past the torn veil, put your hand on the Ark like it was no big deal, turn to the crowd and say, "Go home folks. Elvis has left the building."
Thinking out loud here: An atheist would say that would be perfectly safe to do because the Ark was never special anyway. Let's follow that. First, there is no question of the temple existing, with a holy of holies, veil, etc. That much is known. So, there was an Ark back there, or there wasnt. If there was, it was fake (maybe no tablets in it) or it wasnt. To propose that no Ark was there, or that it was fake, requires a subterfuge of, what, 2000 years? That is a very specific, observable and verifiable lie carried out over 2 millennia.
I grant that it is technically possible that someone made the box to conform to the Exodus requirements, chiseled two stone tablets with the law, got something they claimed to be manna, found a rod that had sprouted and budded, and put those three things in the Ark, and that for the following centuries people believed it had God's protection (cant open it). A conforming fake Ark, with a fake idea of God protecting it lasting 2000 years, or an empty holy of holies for 1000 years, with no priest spilling the beans.
All that could be the case. But if you knew the Ark was actually there, and you somehow actually saw it, I think it would give anyone pause. Its existence might not be proof God had a hand in it, but the entire story, with the Ark's existence, for that length of time, indicates away from "fake", it seems.
Fordt, that was unrehearsed, so feel free to respond to the contrary with what comes to mind. Or not. Not really trying to start a tangent thread. Was just a thing that came to mind.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: It was dispensational.
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Mar 15, 2024, 10:38 AM
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Good stuff. I probably need to do something on the ark - it's got an interesting history even before its Indiana Jones days
The Samaritans say the Judge Eli stole it from them right after Joshua crossed the Jordan and set up an illegitimate religion that became Judaism...that's pretty interesting.
It was defeated in battle and stolen...that's interesting.
And it vanished...that's interesting.
But what a find that would be though. It's not unthinkable. We've got the stela with Hammurabi's Law on it, so Moses's tablets could be out there, buried, somewhere. I'd imagine anything of monetary value...gold, etc., has long been melted down, but the tablets could exist.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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Imo, all those precious articles were destroyed by approval from God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 12:37 PM
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We have enough to idolize without near useless articles which may be considered as holy.
All that crap at the Vatican is just that, crap.
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Re: Imo, all those precious articles were destroyed by approval from God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 2:07 PM
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Agree with you both. I was not imagining finding it today - though my questions would apply to that - because like 88 I do not expect that to happen. Instead, I was considering the fact that it is reasonable to assume that it was there as we read about the temple in the NT. Assuming you're there, and see it, what does that say about OT history?
Even assuming God exists, no artifact can be proof. But an Ark existing in 33 AD is corroboration of an OT story that was thousands of years old at that time. I have read and watched a lot of criticism of OT history that made me think the Ark is just offstage saying, "I can hear you, you know." It had been around for a long time, conforming to the OT account, or a whopper of a lie had been told, with verification right in front of everybody, for a long time, millennia in either case.
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Re: Imo, all those precious articles were destroyed by approval from God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 3:24 PM
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I don't doubt the ark existed at all. In fact, it makes perfect sense to me that it would.
Assuming the Jews started with a nomadic existence of some sort, either in Egypt, or in Canaan, or in both, a portable "seat of God" makes perfect sense as a complement to a portable tabernacle.
I believe that when they took the ark into battle God was supposed to appear between the two cherubs on top, not unlike the scene in Raiders. It even has a name - "The Seat of Mercy" I think. I suppose the ark was his travelling home, and the tabernacle was his semi-permanent home.
That's actually very consistent with Egyptian beliefs, and I would guess Canaanite beliefs, too. For them, statues weren't gods themselves, but a vessel for their gods to appear in when they visited.
The early Hebews didn't have human-like sculptures like the Ashera poles or Egyptian statues, but God appeared at either an altar, or on the ark, when he came down to visit.
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Re: Imo, all those precious articles were destroyed by approval from God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 3:36 PM
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As I think more about that, it might represent a misunderstanding the Hebrews had with how their neighbors worshipped. Several times in the Bible the Israelites criticize the Canaanites for worshipping idols made by the hand of man.
But now I'm not entirely sure they did that. There's the possibility they were worshipping the "visiting" god INSIDE the idol, not the idol itself. I feel more certain of that in the Egyptian case than in the Canaanite case, only because there is some documentation that that's how the Egyptian saw their statues. I don't know if there's any Canaanite corroboration to how they saw their statues.
Sort of like when one kneels at an altar in church, they're not praying TO the altar, they're praying to the presence of God around, above, or near, the altar.
So that criticism may have resulted from a misunderstanding. No way to know, but that just popped in my head as we discuss this. Which is why I like this board so much.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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O I C what went wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024, 4:04 AM
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Zeke wasn't prophesying of the end of the world in chapters 1-9. He was telling Israel/Judah 'you've screwed the pooch here. Repent now or this is what you'll face. 430 years of exile with more death than you've seen in your history.'
Now what's important and relative to Christ is that at, or near, the end of the exile Christ will be revealed which in all actuality is the relief Israel sought from Adam to that day. End of times? Nawh. More likely 'End of a Nation,' is more accurate to their beliefs.
However, for that 2/3rds of Israel's population which died it was the end of time. I understand chit happens pretty quick after you die so I'll give you that.
At or near the end of the Diaspora Jesus ushered in the dispensation of grace after the Hebrews discovered the full fangs of the law.
Your comments on Jewish-gentiles becoming followers of Christ. The subjects of the Roman Empire who weren't Romans are believed to have been extremely interested in the Hebrew religion being that all others in the region had many gods. That includes Rome.
I've read that while many gentiles were circumcised and became full members of the people many gentiles followed the God of Israel without fully obeying the law. There's always a consideration that Abraham received instructions for snipping way before the law was handed down.
It's easy to believe because the simplicity of 'Just pick a god (or no god) and stick with him or whatever you believe,' attitude humans tend to gravitate toward.
I haven't had time yet to digest some of your post. We'll explore that together.
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Re: O I C what went wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024, 10:55 AM
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>Zeke wasn't prophesying of the end of the world in chapters 1-9.
I agree with that. What I think he is doing though, and what I'll try to point out in upcoming posts, is beginning to define what the end of the world will look like, when it does come.
What I'm proposing is that Revelation is a sort of a summary, or culmination, of a lot of earlier Jewish ideas, with a Christian spin on it.
I've got Zechariah targeted for an upcoming post so we can look at the whole thing in detail. Later, after chapter 9, you start to have concepts like:
Zech 14:9 "The Lord will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one Lord, and his name the only name."
That doesn't say WHEN the end will come, but it does say that when it does come, the whole earth will be subject to it, and we'll all be worshipping the Jewish God, no matter who you worshipped before.
That's just one concept, but very important one. There are many more concepts that will be added to that vision of the End Time as we go towards Revelation in 90ish AD.
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Re: O I C what went wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024, 2:53 PM
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That will be an interesting post, as always.
I have a reaction to some phrasing. I am not picking at words, but seeking to illuminate perspective. Or bias, as some of us have admitted we all have. So ... Perhaps this is intentional, but terms like 'Christian spin on it' will guarantee not just a response, but a certain type of response.
Of all the possible interpretations of Revelation, I do not see Christian spin on Jewish ideas as a possible one. Jesus the Messiah cannot be a Christian spin on a Jewish idea, because he pre-existed the idea, and it came from him. He is not a Jewish, or any human, idea. Or, one can propose that he was fake, either in literature or as a fraud.
Revealing Jesus to an oppressed Jewish and Gentile Christian audience in 90 AD will be done in somewhat different terms than to an American CEO in 2024. But they are not very different. In neither case is Jesus a spin on the culture.
I very much value, admire and appreciate your work in showing how beliefs can evolve over time, and how changing culture has a defining impact on how people think and what they believe. But not everything is explained by that. I do not see how Revelation can be, other than in some expected culturally relevant terms.
You have been very forthright in saying that you hold an agnostic view. I obviously believe Jesus is Messiah. It would be dull place in here if all views were from the same perspective, and everyone should communicate boldly. All I am saying here is that a comment assuming that Christianity is a cultural product is going to get a response that this is not possible, whatever one thinks of Jesus. It might have begun with a lie or misunderstanding, a proposal that would have to be defended, but Jesus-as-Messiah can't be cultural evolution. It happened one day, or it didnt.
Edit: Any changes I have made since posting were only eliminating of unnecessary sentences. Most would say I am 10% done with that.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: O I C what went wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024, 4:23 PM
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I'm with you on all of that. I probably phrased "Christian spin" poorly. Something like "further revelation" might have been less casual, and more respectful to all.
I think the split in thinking here (among many other possibilities) is:
1)Jesus was always in existence, in the background, since the beginning of the universe,
waiting to be revealed to man at the appropriate time,
vs.
2)Jesus, the man, was either elevated to divine status, or created in divine status at his resurrection, by God.
I think you and 88 are in camp 1). When I was practicing I was in camp 2). So yes, it's a leftover bias that I have from many years ago to speak of Jesus in that way.
In the first case something like the Trinity was always in existence, and in the second case the Trinity was a result of the change in God's relationship with the Jews...when the nature of God's covenant changed, so did the nature of God, into the Trinity.
But what I'm trying to do in these posts isn't really to challenge either of those views. Or an agnostic or even atheistic view.
Independent of which of those cases God may be, I'm just trying to show a change in man's understanding of what the End Time may be, by what he speaks about in the Bible, and when he speaks about it.
My concept may be a bust, lol. I haven't followed it completely through yet. It's developmental itself, right now. But, I saw enough in my readings so suspect an evolution, and so I'll present it to the gallery and hand out sharpened darts to everyone, haha.
But yes, back to your original point, you'll sometimes catch me speaking in those terms because that's how I saw God for so many years. It's not meant to be presumptive, because at this place and point in my life I am an agnostic as you noted. It's just a hangover, partly-unconscious bias from my previous life. ">">">">">
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Re: O I C what went wrong.
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Mar 15, 2024, 5:02 PM
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I never knew there were technical terms for the two major beliefs, but I shouldn't be surprised that there are. Here's what a quick internet search revealed:
"Low Christology" is the belief that God exalted Jesus to be his Son by raising him from the dead, thereby raising him to divine status.
"High Christology" is the view that Jesus was a pre-existent divine being who became a human, did the Father's will on earth, and then was taken back up into heaven whence he had originally come.
We never called it "Low Christology" in my church, but in retrospect that's clearly what they taught, or some version of it. Looks like it would make an interesting series of posts somewhere down the line.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I'd gone to church for 15-18 years before I realized Jesus is God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 6:05 PM
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I, like you, spent much of my childhood in a fire and brimstone church. I repented at least 6 times a week or so it seemed. I seem to remember the fear of hell more than the love of God.
My realization of who Christ actually is came after I got saved. I don't recall exactly what scripture I was reading when the epiphany struck.
I do not believe it is humanly possible to understand how Christ is God without His Spirit's testimony and guidance. One who is minus the Holy Ghost will read a verse a 1000 times and never see the spiritual meaning. To help us understand Christ taught with parables. Even then the impact of the truth won't land without the Spirit.
Now for some constructive criticism of your opinion. God Himself in their own Bible called Hebrews a stiffneck people. You are studying Ezekiel and know exactly how stubborn they were. Their absoluteness came honestly to them. They firmly believed there is but one God. They did until they did exactly what God forbid them to not do. They intermarried with the heathen surrounding them rather than staying pure bloods.
Jesus spoke of them in Matt 15:
"14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
This isn't just something insulting and snappy to say. That's why He wept when He looked across Jerusalem. Paul basically said, 'I would go to hell to see them open their eyes and realize Christ died to save them.'
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Re: I'd gone to church for 15-18 years before I realized Jesus is God.
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Mar 15, 2024, 6:52 PM
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Good comments!
>I repented at least 6 times a week or so it seemed.
I just lost a mouthful of tea
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I think you have more of a Christian attitude toward these discussion than me.
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Mar 15, 2024, 5:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: O I C what went wrong. ] |
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I know I've said a ton of things that were caustic to your personality and you've always been a perfect gentleman with considerate and respectful comments. That's something I lack for I often shoot from the hip.
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Re: I think you have more of a Christian attitude toward these discussion than me.
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Mar 15, 2024, 7:03 PM
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>I think you have more of a Christian attitude toward these discussion than me.
Thanks for the compliment, but Mrs. Fordt knows better. She knows the REAL me...hahaha. I've overturned more than a few moneychanger's tables in my day. The only thing that's kept us together all these years is that she knows she loses it far worse than me when I lose it. So I've got her on that one.
I love your passion. People get passionate about things they believe in. That's the way it should be, I think. It's all good.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I got as far as 'Christian spin,' in your post and reconsidered the matter.
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Mar 15, 2024, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: O I C what went wrong. ] |
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I accused an air monitor of spinning the details of the removal of floor tiles which were held with asbestos containing mastic. One of the City o G'ville employees smelled the citric acid used to remove the mastic and assumed he was smelling asbestos. I never met a nicer bunch of people or a bunch so ignorant either.
Fordt's comment stirred me ire a bit too so I decided to calm down a bit before responding. At the point of reading your comment I remembered, I was honestly unintendedly criticizing how someone else viewed the event.
The air monitor reacted like I reacted when a suggestion that spin was involved in my understanding of the Bible. However, I do not believe that was Mr Fordt's intent. I think he was simply saying 'Christian view,' but his lazy asz didn't realize his fingers were typing and not paying attention to the filter between them and his brain.
J/K @Fordtunate Son
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Re: I got as far as 'Christian spin,' in your post and reconsidered the matter.
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Mar 15, 2024, 7:34 PM
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>I do not believe that was Mr Fordt's intent
Yeah, that was just a bad choice of words on my part. I think I got Tulsa's attention with that one too.
Spin is a highly charged word in today's politics. I don't get into politics much, so I just stepped on a landmine with that one. In that context, spin often means a deliberate and dishonest attempt to distort a truth, which is not at all what I meant.
I should have used the more neutral word "interpretation." But I often use spin casually, and dangerously (oops) as an indicator of non-bias.
For instance, in physics (which I read more of than politics), quarks are said to have up spin or down spin, or left spin or right spin, with the term spin being nothing more than a way to distinguish a difference between two equal things.
It's like saying an electrical outlet is 'positive' or 'negative.' They're equal, just different. Of course, outside of the field of electricity, the words positive or negative have charged meanings as well. Did I say "charged" meanings? Rim tap.
But this does show how just the slightest difference in the usage, or intention, of a word can color how it is received or understood. Texts are tough to read for just that reason. Imagine a whole book full of them...like the Bible.
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I began by agreeing with you both.
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Mar 15, 2024, 8:25 PM
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So now I will disagree with you both. Not really; just staying with the theme there.
To 88: My comment about spin was apparently seen as an emotional response. If it sounded that way, then it was worded that way, and I apologize to you both. Was not at all my intent. When discussing nuanced subjects, I figure we can and should speak frankly, as long as the reference is to an idea, not the person. That I would remind anyone of air monitors - being nice but ignorant - MissTulsa will see as progress, having abandoned hope regarding either.
To Fordt: Changing the term from spin to interpretation would not have affected my response. I did not see spin as an accusatory term, like we see in politics, because that is not you. I saw it as I think you intended, a take on Jewish view of current circumstances. I would have said that little of the NT is that. It is hard to get executed proposing the next evolution of thought, and I do not believe the NT can be seen as that. Radical new direction, sure.
Oh, almost forgot. You raise a good question about Jesus being pre-existant vs granted divine status. My question would be: How can one adopt the first view without also, paradoxically, rejecting the rest of the NT? Among several references, Jesus said, "Before Abraham, I am", and John begins with "In the beginning was the word..." How does one reject that, yet have any basis for seeing Jesus as anything other than ordinary. Your view (the one you had) seems nearly Mormon, as I'm sure you know.
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Re: I began by agreeing with you both.
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Mar 15, 2024, 8:41 PM
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Edit: A person can reject John 1 yet still think the resurrection occurred, but that would be difficult, I think.
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Re: I began by agreeing with you both.
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Mar 15, 2024, 8:42 PM
[ in reply to I began by agreeing with you both. ] |
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Ah, glad I didn't offend you ">">">
>How can one adopt the first view without also, paradoxically, rejecting the rest of the NT?
>"Before Abraham, I am"
Excellent points, and I don't know, lol.
In my case I don't think we ever confronted the issues. The pastor probably just chose to teach sermons that supported Low Christology and stayed in the vein of thought. As a smaller church we didn't delve into too many theological issues, and I never remember anything like that even coming up. As I mentioned, I didn't even know there were terms for the two ideas.
But now I'm curious, and I imagine some church fathers somewhere along the way have written reams on both sides. Let me do a little research and see what scriptural evidence each uses for their case. I'm almost certain there are specific verses used in support of that view.
I'll have to report back, and will probably post it as a new topic since this thread is starting to get pretty deep. I'm anxious to find out myself.
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Re: I began by agreeing with you both.
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Mar 15, 2024, 10:22 PM
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To make sure I was clear, i do not believe i react emotionally to anyone's opinion about a subject or idea, or in response to ideas in a post. That is certainly my intent. But we have talked enough that I hear who you are rather than using words against you. Again, that is at least my intent. I assume you've seen failures, and I admit to whatever those are.
I'm one drink away from, "I love you, man."
"And 88, too."
"And even dog and echo."
"All a y'all, man."
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Re: I began by agreeing with you both.
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Mar 16, 2024, 12:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: I began by agreeing with you both. ] |
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ClemsonTiger1988®
Fordtunate Son
Every comment I made about not intending to wrongly react to the 'spin' post stands. I meant them, and will reaffirm them.
I did just now reread my response to that post, and the responding posts discussing emotional responses and other flaws, to understand how I generated those responses.
I do not see anything in it that should have been interpreted as an emotional reaction. I believe I was sincerely affirming of the poster, and my disagreements with the post were about the ideas in the post, in emotionally neutral terms. I made no comments that reflected negatively on the poster.
I would not want to see us drift into defining disagreement as disparagement. Goodwill does not require agreement. I do not think my post showed a lack of goodwill or respect. However, if there are phrases in it that seemed to do that, I am sincerely asking to have them pointed out. I do not want to keep doing that, if I did.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I don't think we show enough respect to connotation as perhaps we should.
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Mar 15, 2024, 8:57 PM
[ in reply to I began by agreeing with you both. ] |
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Spin has a hint of fabrication in its definition but there's nothing deceitful about it in its purest definition. It's just one of those perversions man has done to our language, but it's a certain definitive term.
As Fordt said, politics has ruined the term. Spin is used by politicians mostly because they can call someone a liar without facing a lawsuit for slander or defamation.
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Re: I don't think we show enough respect to connotation as perhaps we should.
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Mar 15, 2024, 10:26 PM
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Ha. When a political commentator made his name on the phrase "The No Spin Zone", yes, we have found another arena into which politics has intruded. Luckily, we know each other better than outside forces would lead us to believe.
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You got your wires cross. The verse you quoted as being Ezekiel 14:9 is...
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Mar 16, 2024, 10:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: O I C what went wrong. ] |
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actually Zechariah 14:9. So let's try this again.
Ezekiel was addressing an event in the near future, the systematic destruction of the nation(s) of Israel. My mistake was assuming you were accurately reporting Zech 14:9 as Zeke 14:9. I spent some time in confusion about this.
Therefore, the vision of Ezekiel of the beast with 4 heads, which is another subject worthy of time, is not the 4 beast(s) described in Revelation. My questions should be what do those five critters represent. It's not, I don't care.
I can't speak for all Christians but I can speak for myself and at least a handful, possibly most. Our understanding of the OT includes Christ at every turn. Our Christ died on the cross, their Christ will redeem them and set up a kingdom. It's a shame that all those who refuse the first will be ignored by the second.
I'm not sure you'll find many 'Jewish-Christians,' who disagree. Fact is, all Christians are adopted by God and are therefore brothers to 'Jewish-Christians,' according to the Bible.
References upon request.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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Re: You got your wires cross. The verse you quoted as being Ezekiel 14:9 is...
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Mar 16, 2024, 10:04 AM
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Sorry, didn't tag you and didn't want this to pass without your knowledge, Fordtunate Son.
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All-In [29954]
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Re: You got your wires cross. The verse you quoted as being Ezekiel 14:9 is...
Mar 16, 2024, 1:34 PM
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ClemsonTiger1988®
Oops. Sorry about that confusion 88. Yes, I was quoting from both Ezek and Zech at different times and did get my wires crossed on that one.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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I addes Ezeliel onto my regular reading so after I finish it I'll skip to Zeck.
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Mar 16, 2024, 7:28 PM
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I blew two fuses before the breaker tripped.
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Orange Blooded [2165]
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Re: Religious Pron - The End Times, 1 of ?
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Mar 15, 2024, 5:16 PM
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Million dollar question….
What is Jesus waiting on to come back?
My wife says he’s waiting on me.
Better get you a nother beer.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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She is right.
Mar 16, 2024, 4:49 AM
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He told me straight up He wasn't returning until the last sinner who was going to be saved was saved. Jesus paid too much for your soul to let this go and if you think he doesn't have a paddle to fit your bottom you're in for a wonderful surprise.
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CU Guru [1013]
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Re: She is right.
Mar 16, 2024, 7:41 AM
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It's interesting that he would tell you, but he won't tell others.
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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Maybe it's us, not Him?***
Mar 16, 2024, 9:15 AM
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CU Guru [1013]
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Re: Maybe it's us, not Him?***
Mar 16, 2024, 10:32 AM
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It’s our fault he doesn’t show up? That’s one option I suppose. I can think if a more likely one …
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Oculus Spirit [94265]
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You don't know Him how then could you know His motivations or lack thereof?
Mar 16, 2024, 11:45 AM
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You imagine Him being like you, I imagine being like Him because I know Him.
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CU Guru [1013]
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Re: You don't know Him how then could you know His motivations or lack thereof?
Mar 16, 2024, 12:42 PM
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You always skip the step that I'm asking. Where is he?
Kind of hard to get to know someone who doesn't show up.
Here watch: "God, if you are out there, I'd like to get to know you. Can you show me what I'm missing?"
Boom.
Ask and ye shall receive, right?
Let's see what happens.
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