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Replies: 28
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CU Guru [1047]
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Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 8, 2022, 6:56 PM
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Just as a couple of examples, here are some plays from the Alabama game in 2018:
3rd and 14: Trevor Lawrence to Tee Higgins 62 yards. (TD drive)
3rd and 5: Lawrence to Tee Higgins 14 yards (TD drive)
3rd and 7: Lawrence to Amari Rodgers 26 yards. (TD drive).
3rd and 12: Lawrence to Justin Ross 37 yards &
3rd and 9: Lawrence to Justin Ross 17 yards (TD drive)
And Florida St 2016:
3rd and 10: Deshaun Watson to Mike Williams 9 yards (TD drive)
3rd and 11: Watson to Deon Cain 29 yards (FG drive)
3rd and 5: Watson to Mike Williams 14 yards &
3rd and 7: Watson to Mike Williams 17 yards (TD drive)
3rd and 21: Watson to Hunter Renfrow 20 yards (FG drive)
3rd and 5: Watson to Jordan Leggett 11 yards (TD drive)
My point is, those are slot of third and longs where elite players bailed out the offense and kept a drive alive. My other point is, those must have been some crappy plays on first and second down to get to third and long.
So my overarching point is this. The offense this year is not doing things too much differently than in the glory years (i.e. having crappy plays to get into third and long). The difference is, they don't have Mike Williams, Tee Higgins, Deshaun Watson, Trevor Lawrence, etc. making big plays to bail out the team from bad situations and keep drives alive.
The guys on the team now don't have that kind of ability. So, if you have one bad play on first or second down, they can't make up for it. The margin for error is much smaller.
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 8, 2022, 9:25 PM
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Part you aren't accounting for is all of those plays aren't to the sideline. It's definitely 90% play calling. No one thinks this offense is 2016 or 2018 good, but we would EASILY be undefeated and scoring a ton per game if we used the whole field.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 8, 2022, 10:21 PM
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The part you aren't accounting for is that the current personnel doesn't have the ability to use the whole field.
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All-In [44075]
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Why not?!?
Nov 8, 2022, 10:50 PM
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Weren’t these guys part of recruiting classes ranked in the top 5-10 nationally?
Why don’t they have the ability to get open in the middle of the field?!?
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Why not?!?
Nov 9, 2022, 7:18 AM
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Because they are all the same type of guy. They are that 6'1"/6'2" ~ 200lbs. midrange type guys. There isn't enough diverse ability in the group. You don't have the big jump ball guy like Mike Williams or Tee Higgins. You don't have the speed burners like Amari Rodgers or Sammy Watkins. You don't have the big bodied athletic guy like Jordan Leggett, or the shifty guy like Hunter Renfrow. You have a team full of jack-of-all-trades guys who, as a collective unit, don't significantly threaten the defense.
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Freshman [-79]
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There are guys getting open on nearly every play.
Nov 9, 2022, 7:25 AM
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We're too focused on the primary guys and not going through progressions. Sometimes you also need to identify advantageous one-on-one matchups and give your WR a chance. The whole, "we're not getting separation" thing is an overused cliche. In reality, we're indecisive and not seeing the field.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: There are guys getting open on nearly every play.
Nov 11, 2022, 10:13 AM
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I agree with this. If you go back and watch Boston College you will see a few plays where we had A. Williams or Briningstool running wide open over the middle of the field. Had DJ seen them and thrown a nice ball they would’ve made it to the endzone untouched.
I think those misses were masked by the fact that we won and it was one of our better offensive performances. But all that to say, our receivers are handcuffed by one-read play calls or a QB who isn’t good at progressing through reads.
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 9, 2022, 4:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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I disagree. I think the issue is a QB thar can only look at best at one half of a field at a time. Cade doesn't seem to have that problem when they let him.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 9, 2022, 7:20 AM
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No, he has been looking over the entire field. He did it consistently against Wake Forest, NC State, etc. Klubnik has barely thrown the ball, so you can't tell what problem he has.
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Freshman [-79]
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No. He was doing better at going through progressions, but
Nov 9, 2022, 7:28 AM
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he's regressed. Clearly. I immediately think of a couple examples on Saturdays when DJ stood in the pocket like a statue, staring down one guy or one side of the field, lacking confidence to let it rip, and ultimately having the rush collapse on him. You're referring to past games, but as of late DJ has regressed to his 2021 issues.
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CU Guru [1698]
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Re: No. He was doing better at going through progressions, but
Nov 9, 2022, 7:45 AM
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Look at the early game 4th down play and the running back out of the backfield to solidify your point on progressions and decision making. Wide open with green grass to spare.
Now I also think abandoning the interior run w Shipley and having no pass routes in the middle of the field was also mind boggling.
Think play calling can help DJ be better but there is a ceiling for him reading/reacting to defenses.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: No. He was doing better at going through progressions, but
Nov 10, 2022, 7:31 AM
[ in reply to No. He was doing better at going through progressions, but ] |
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The previous poster said he can only look at half the field at one time. Clearly, that's not true, as he has done it throughout the season. Nobody is arguing he didn't have a bad game. It's just patently false to claim he "can't" read more that have the field when it's been demonstrated this year that he had the ability.
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 9, 2022, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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I'm not sure what you're watching, hut it isn't what I'm watching. If you think DJ is reading the field, we just srent going to agree on much. Klubniks avoidance of pressure and buying time is worth way more than what DJ is capable of. Also his 2pt conversion pass against syracuse I believe is a pass DJ isn't making.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 7:25 AM
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I've been watching the games all season. He has been looking over the entire field throughout the season. There is literally video of him doing it.
Klubnik simply hasn't displayed anything to show he is better right now. Maybe he will be in the future, but now he hasn't shown it.
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 7:36 AM
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There's ten times more video of him staring down a WR or looking only at one half of a field than there is of him going through progressions. Cade has made throws DJ has never made and won't make, because he ignores the middle of the field and can't avoid pressure long enough to make them. Cade is clearly more decisive. That part is obvious, and that's a huge flaw for DJ. Hesitation with a QB always hurts you.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 5:37 PM
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1. There isn't ten times more video of Uiagalelei staring down receivers.
2. Klubnik has not made throws Uiagalelei never made.
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 11, 2022, 10:03 AM
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Since we are numbering.....
1. Yes, there is.
2. Klubniks int at ND is either a safety or a sack, because DJ isn't getting away from that pressure with his speed, and the 2pt conversion against Syracuse I believe is a play DJ literally can't make because he couldn't avoid pressure fast enough like Klubnik did to even get to throw that ball.
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All-American [593]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 11, 2022, 6:40 AM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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That 2 point pass versus 'Cuse was beautiful and CK's season highlight. How about all of the passes DJ made against Wake? Can't really cherry pick a small number of plays to represent the entire season's worth, in my opinion. But I'm on board with giving CK the chance, early in a game, to see what he can do...
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Asst Coach [705]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 14, 2022, 4:54 AM
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That's kinda the same thing you just did by only mentioning wake. Stats aren't relevant to me. That may sound crazy, but many things go right or wrong that are out of the hands of one person to skew stats. Some really, really bad. I'm evaluating Cade based on his fundamentals and throws. Not whether the ball is complete or not. For instance, X player in the Big12 may have 7 million yards passing. Y player in ACC or SEC may have 3 million. But how do they play? Stats aren't all.
But the other thing skewing these DJ/Cade Stats is that DJ has the luxury of actually playing when Clemson isn't down by 28. When you've used the word "spark" in reference to your backup and put him in in the 4th qtr down by 28, what are you thinking is going to happen? He will take what's there, live to play another set of downs, not take sacks, not force balls, etc? No, he's gonna try and be a spark.
DJ played well against Louisville. If we got that result every game I'd start him. Unfortunately we don't, and I'd rather take my lumps with Cade than DJ. Just my 02. It is close though. I don't think at this point Cades actual potential and all that are so much higher than DJs its a no Brainer. I understand the argument against it. I'd personally just go with youth for the future. Even if somehow we make a playoff, I don't see us winning anything. I hope I'm wrong.
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All-American [593]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 11, 2022, 6:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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And you've seen enough of Cade to know this? I don't think the stats support this observation. Having said that, they really do need to give CK more playing time early in games. It's obvious to me that the combination of circumstances - DJ's inconsistency, O-line play, Offensive play calling - has not been particularly effective. Nothing to lose at this point to give CK as decent chance. If he bombs out, give the playing time back to DJ...or HJ.
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Rock Defender [71]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 9:17 AM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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You make good points. I’ve been watching ND this year because my daughter is there. After 5 or 6 games they accepted the fact that, like Clemson, they don’t have the QB or WR’s to run their offense. But they do have 3 good backs and excess TE’s. So they started running the old ND offense from about 1919. When they do that, they are hard to stop because nobody’s defense is designed to stop that.
CU doesn’t have the guys to run the offense they want to run. They used to have receivers who always caught the 50/50 ball and almost always broke 1-2 tackles after the catch. Now that ball gets dropped or intercepted, and when they do catch it, the same 3 yard pass that used to get 20 yds gets 3 yds. Awesome play calling from 3-4 years ago just looks dumb now.
I think it’s time for the offense to evolve even if it has to evolve backwards into something Clemson’s guys can execute.
Another thing, ND’s WR’s, who know they aren’t getting many balls to catch, block their ##### off. Oh, and Clemson’s DB’s can’t tackle.
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CU Guru [1660]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 8:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli ] |
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Then you're saying we suck.
There are limitations, obvious limitations. If they are by design or player is the unknown.
What is known is the results.
I usually go back and watch the game on tape, even that has limitations based on where the camera is. I watch the O-line, the backs, the receivers and the QB. Look for breakdowns on the line. Look to see how the backs do in pass pro especially. See if they are the checkdown where do they end up. Receivers just getting off the line, you usually cannot see the receivers until the ball is thrown. QB, feet and head passing and what they do on read.
Our O-Line is pretty good this year.
Our receivers do not block well, they have for the most part made the catches. Williams needs more touches. Pass routes are mostly to the boundary which is hit and miss.
Backs, Shipley is good. Undersized when it comes to pass protection but he gets in the way. They both run hard and make positive yards.
QB.... if the field was 30 yards wide he would be Heisman talk... he appears to only see half the field. Looking at his head he does not look off the safety's his head is always looking toward the receiver he ends up throwing to, he does not appear to have progressions, if he does they are all in the same place. He has incredible arm strength, he has used some touch this year that was not there last year. Alot of his passes come off his hand wobbly. And for the record I really like DJ and wish he could reach his potential but the above traits are what they are.
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Head Coach [785]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 8, 2022, 10:03 PM
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Good post. Earlier this season, I remember we had some games we were converting at a surprisingly high rate on 3rd down, ~50%. We were 16 for 23 vs Wake, 7 for 13 vs FSU, just under 50% for NC St. I remember thinking on a couple of occaisions, that’s going to be hard to sustain over the course of the season. Past 2 games vs Cuse & ND, down around 33%.
To OP’s point, we’re seeing very similar play calls, but have fewer alpha dogs who can make these special plays when we need them, and across a season, there’s understandable regression to the mean. Love the Clemson Tigers but the reality is this crew of dudes is not going to convert 3rd down, esp 3rd & long, at a 50% clip over a season. Not hating, just being realistic. 50% is too much to consistently expect from any college team.
All that said, the idea that we keep doing generally the same thing, running the same basic scheme and play calling, expecting different results… frustrating.
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Freshman [-79]
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Who were the common denominators in each?
Nov 8, 2022, 10:36 PM
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set of numbers? The most important player on the field ... the QB. He's the guy that makes all of that happen.
To be an elite team, you need elite QB play. Some may say something about a guy like Stetson Bennet not being an elite QB, but the thing is, he's making elite decisions and throws, and he's playing an elite level right now.
Look at the playoff era. How many playoff teams had 'elite' QB play? Basically gotta have it in this era of offense.
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CU Guru [1047]
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Re: Who were the common denominators in each?
Nov 9, 2022, 7:22 AM
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That's true as well.....And that why you see an offense ranked 58th in the country, or whatever it is.
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Orange Blooded [3157]
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Re: Who were the common denominators in each?
Nov 9, 2022, 7:35 AM
[ in reply to Who were the common denominators in each? ] |
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Bennett "should" be playing at a higher level. The dude is 25 years old. If these guys all started football at age 6, he has been playing since Trevor was 4, DJ was 2, and Cade was an infant.
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Orange Blooded [2351]
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We’ve had this issue for a long time
Nov 10, 2022, 8:24 AM
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Throwing deep balls or throwing short of yard to gain in heavy traffic. But the 4th and 4 throw Saturday night is all on DJ. Mafah was standing all alone over the middle for the easy 1st down. Only way DJ didn’t see it is he never looked. And the risk is much higher on 4th down than 3rd. An incomplete pass is equivalent to an INT returned to LOS.
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Legend [19610]
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Re: Consider this when discussing offensive scheme or play calli
Nov 10, 2022, 5:40 PM
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Hard to have your playmakers even attempt to bail you out when you call a bubble screen on 3rd and 12 in an offense where the WRs have shown THEY CANNOT BLOCK
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110%er [6140]
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Scheme and playcalling a lot more important now.***
Nov 10, 2022, 11:34 PM
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