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Hall of Famer [21618]
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This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 6:07 PM
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for. Our decline from great heights was frustrating... but can it get even worse? Considering the vast majority of baseball programs have been worse than us lately, it's not an impossibility.
So, how many think we make the NCAA Tournament every year for the next 5 years?
How many think we win the ACC Championship in the next 5?
How many think we win a National Championship in the next 5?
How many think we go to the Super Regionals at least twice in the next 5?
I'm curious to see what those who wanted Jack fired think about how much that will actually help the program. Now that it has come, what are your beliefs?
We pulled off a bandaid that few programs have ever pulled before. I have no idea what will happen now. Hopefully we skyrocket right back to where Leggett had us about 7 or 8 years ago. Hopefully even higher.
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CU Guru [1400]
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There are no certainties
Jun 8, 2015, 6:11 PM
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but having barely made the field as the last team in the past two years (and promptly justifying that with back to back two and que performances) and with what we are losing off the pitching staff I highly doubt we would have made the field next year if we had kept the status quo. At some point you lose the benefit of the doubt when you do nothing to show you deserve it.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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So going to the NCAA tournament 21 out of 22 isn't
Jun 8, 2015, 6:13 PM
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providing evidence that you will probably make the tournament again? If not, then what would be?
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: So going to the NCAA tournament 21 out of 22 isn't
Jun 8, 2015, 6:45 PM
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Getting sent packing now 2 years in a row without any hint of a chance to move on. I rather not make a regional if we have no chance to win it.
This season was horrible and it was getting worse every year to the next.
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Scout Team [179]
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Re: So going to the NCAA tournament 21 out of 22 isn't
Jun 9, 2015, 4:07 PM
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Dumbest thing you have ever written here - and you have written some off-the-charts dumb things.
What kind of loser mentality does one have to have to actually think that staying at home is better than having an invite to the dance and a shot at Omaha? Seriously?
We were not embarrassed in Fullerton, although it is popular on this board to suggest that. We had ASU on the ropes late until the bombs came out of nowhere. We came from 7 down to take the lead late vs Pepperdine. In both games we "hinted" that we might move on. Quit dancing on this team's grave. You are talking out of your tailpipe. Go find another team to pile on. smh
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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CU Guru [1400]
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No it wasn't
Jun 8, 2015, 7:05 PM
[ in reply to So going to the NCAA tournament 21 out of 22 isn't ] |
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If previous performance were and indicator then you would be talking about going to the post season 22 out of 22 years because the five years leading up to 2008 were a heck of a lot better than the five years leading up to the 2016 season and we didn't make the field then.
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Legend [16071]
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We've barely made it the last two years...
Jun 8, 2015, 10:59 PM
[ in reply to So going to the NCAA tournament 21 out of 22 isn't ] |
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And probably didn't deserve to be there at all with our 0-4 record after making it. We were the equivalent of a 6-6 team sneaking into the Duck Commander Bowl and getting blown out both times. Clemson baseball has been even better than Clemson football over its history. We deserve better than backing into the tournament and getting destroyed when we do.
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Hall of Famer [23115]
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People don't like to admit it,
Jun 9, 2015, 4:12 PM
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but if UNCheat is not making headlines this year and we don't make it in as the last team.
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110%er [7191]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 6:31 PM
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First off, I don't look ahead 5 years.It usually takes 5 years just to build/rebuild a program,especially with a new coaching staff.
So the first thing to do is to hire a coach,hopefully one who is
not only knowledgable in baseball fundamentials,but who can recruit those type of players
who will put you in that postion to be playing/competiting in those categories you mentioned.
Obviously Jack wasn't getting the job done when you consider we have not won an ACC Title in almost a decade,never have won a National Championship,and have not been to a Super Regional in the past 5 years.
Add to that ,Jack was,from all indications, adamant about making changes to his staff,which was probably the straw that broke the camels back.
But you said it best.If Jack had us where were about 7 or 8 years ago,we might not be having this
conversation.
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CU Medallion [55594]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 6:55 PM
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The straw that broke jacks A$$ was Dan Pepicelli!!!
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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I'll preface this by saying I was firmly on the keep JL side
Jun 8, 2015, 6:42 PM
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until this season.
I don't think firing JL was the easy decision but I do think it was the right decision. He showed an either inability or unwillingness to adapt to the changes in CBB in the last few years and a loyalty to his assistants to a fault (not unlike CTB with Rob Spence). I honestly don't think DR had any other option.
It's never easy to have to force out a guy who's done so much for your program and been so successful when it looks like the game starts to pass someone by but it's never better to let the ship go down.
I for one hope we have the FSU post-Bowden path to rebuilding and not the UT post-Fulmer/Michigan post-Carr route...
There are enough strong candidates out there right now (and no, I don't think O'Sullivan or Corbin are realistic options) and I think Clemson is objectively a good enough job that we can right the ship. The question is, are we as supporters/boosters willing to put up the money to get that guy.
I think it's realistic to expect an NCAA tourney team by year two, a super regional run by year 4, and trip to Omaha and/or ACC championship by year five.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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I agree and I also agree with your 5 year plan. Will others?***
Jun 8, 2015, 8:50 PM
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Scout Team [169]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 7:23 PM
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Our baseball program wreaked of the stench of old people. Just because a coach has had success does not mean he's the one to continue to improve our program. It is time for our program to take its next step and that requires a new leader. I'm happy for Jack's accomplishments and dedication to Clemson baseball. I'll pull for his teams wherever he may go; but, I'm happy to see that we're serious about being competitive and I'm happy for the nation to see that we do have high expectations and will act on them by holding our coaches accountable. Best of luck to Jack and our new HC. I'm looking forward to watching baseball again.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:31 PM
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Old people LMAO
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Chicken Little says don't do anything because it might be wrong
Jun 8, 2015, 7:33 PM
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###; one of the truly obvious criticisms of JackLeg's coaching style was that he made kids play like they were uptight and afraid to lose.
In fact Jackleg is so good at this technique that he now has half of Tigernet "afraid to lose" too....
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110%er [6937]
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Re:You told the truth there Bud.***
Jun 8, 2015, 7:52 PM
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110%er [5436]
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 7:35 PM
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So we should have just continued down our current path?
Do you not believe Clemson Baseball should and can be an elite program?
I dont this we make the tournament next year regardless of who our coach is. Look at what we are losing and look at what we have coming back.
Your second point....
He hasnt won the ACC but once in 20 why do you think he would win it in 5 years.
He hasnt won a NC in twenty + why do you think he wuold win that in 5 years.
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110%er [6937]
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Re: I think you are right about that. Someone will have to
Jun 8, 2015, 7:59 PM
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be pretty lucky to do so. The Maryland coach inherited a bunch that could not get on the field. It' took him a while to straighten that out.
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110%er [5436]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:16 PM
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Use the ignore function if you dont like the message.
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110%er [5436]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:17 PM
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### does that have to do with anything?
Wow what a pathetic loser attitude. "No one else in the ACC has done it so we shouldnt strive to"
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110%er [5436]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:29 PM
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You putting down Jack is just dumb. The man got fire and you still feel the need to beat that dead horse.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:36 PM
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Where have I put down Jack Leggett?
Stating facts is not putting him down. You seem to take that waaaayyy too personally and have no clue what putting down actually means.
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110%er [5436]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:36 PM
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Well then little buddy please explain what the point of your no one else in the ACC has won comment was.
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110%er [5436]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:45 PM
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You like facts so well and you were throwing off on jack for not winning one so there.
Who would you hire??? I say go after Kevin then I might just give Lecroy a chance
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:56 PM
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Thing is I dont give a #### what the ACC does.
I care about winning it but what the other members do or do not do has no interest in me.
I would like in order...
1) Sully
2) Schlossnagle
3) Lee
4) McDonnell
5) B. Lecroy
If you remember correctly I was not against naming him HCIW last year.
Also if you read my post history you would know I did not think or want Jack Leggett fired this year. I thought he deserved a fairwell tour next year. So your whole I hate Jack thing doesnt hold much water.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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Faulty logic alert.
Jun 9, 2015, 12:57 PM
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If you value winning the conference then you necessarily assign a value of significance to that conference. If you care about Clemson doing something that depends on the relative performance of the rest of the conference then you can't logically say that you don't "give a #### what the ACC does."
That's impossible. Either you value the conference, allowing you to claim that you care about winning it, or you don't value it, which means conference championships couldn't be important to you.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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Legend [19352]
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Re: your response does very little in the way of responding.
Jun 8, 2015, 11:00 PM
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There are plenty of points to my post... Why should those be concerns to you when the point of this question...
"I'm curious to see what those who wanted Jack fired think about how much that will actually help the program. Now that it has come, what are your beliefs?"
is to pretend like we would be doing those things or we would be better off keeping Jack Leggett. Who knows what we will do in the next 5 years. I have a pretty #### good idea what we would do in the next 5 years if we kept Jack Leggett.
Should the expectation be to compete and do some of those things by year 5... you are #### right.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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That answer makes it seem as if your only consideration was
Jun 9, 2015, 12:01 PM
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whether Jack deserved to be fired or not. You spend 99% of your time on that, and ignore the more important part of the equation.... what would actually help Clemson get better. You don't seem to be able to approach that topic. Like you are stuck on saying "But Jack did this," even after he's been fired. I asked about the future... an easy question about expectations. Given your argumentative response to what was clearly an open-ended question, you are simply providing more evidence to my point that most on here are very parochial-minded about everything Clemson related.
Detach yourself from your umbilical cord connecting you to those comfortable cliches. They are obsolete now.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: That answer makes it seem as if your only consideration was
Jun 9, 2015, 12:30 PM
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My expectations are the same as they always have been for Clemson baseball.
Win Championships.
I would expect to be competing for and winning Championships by year 5.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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So if you could choose, would you trade 4 years of
Jun 9, 2015, 12:38 PM
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being worse than we were under Jack for an ACC championship in the 5th year?
I'm obviously not saying that will/would happen. I'm asking because most people have not put much thought into the other side of this equation. It's not a rhetorical question.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: So if you could choose, would you trade 4 years of
Jun 9, 2015, 12:45 PM
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I dont think we will be worse for 4 years so that whole premise is already flawed.
I think next year is going to be bad but that was gonig to be the case regardless of who our HC was. Look at who we lose and what we have coming back.
lets not act like Coach Leggett was setting the world on fire these past two seasons. The bar is set fairly low at the moment for doing what he has done the past 5.
I dont think it will take 5 years to get back to the level we are at currently.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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It's a hypothetical question of preference. Your comment...
Jun 9, 2015, 12:50 PM
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that "the premise is bad" makes no sense. Are you refusing to state your preference in that hypothetical scenario? You are obviously interested and engaged in making a point in this thread, so it would be odd if you refused to answer an easy hypothetical question.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: It's a hypothetical question of preference. Your comment...
Jun 9, 2015, 12:57 PM
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No I would not trade 4 years of being worse for a Championship in year 5....
The question itself is just stupid though... It is an attempt to frame the situation into something that it is not. I do not see Clemson Baseball being worse for the next 4 years.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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It's not a stupid question. It allows you to see my point.
Jun 9, 2015, 1:02 PM
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Your point that you have always maintained is "Winning Championships."
Mine, that I have always maintained is I think the odds are higher that forcing Jack out would do more harm than good to the future of Clemson baseball for reasons that few here seem capable of understanding.
You don't value championships any more than I do. You just seem to be thoroughly convinced that firing Jack can't hurt the situation. That is exactly why I criticize the one-sided thinking. Evaluating a "downward trend" is only half of the equation. The future of Clemson baseball is the other half.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: It's not a stupid question. It allows you to see my point.
Jun 9, 2015, 1:06 PM
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There is always a CHANCE of hurting the situation...
You are correct on that.
I am of the belief that the chance is low enough to warrant the gamble. I do not think doing the same thing over and over and over and over again just because you are scared of what might happen is the right move. It is a coward move and will never lead to greatness.
We know what lies on the Jack Leggett side of the door. Very few championships poor fielding and poor baserunning. I am of the camp of lets try a different door. With the things in place at Clemson Baseball should be better than what it currently is.
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Trainer [35]
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Head Coach [762]
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 8, 2015, 8:30 PM
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Jack was a shell of what he was and had to go.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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Why keep beating this VERY dead horse? JL is gone right or
Jun 8, 2015, 8:44 PM
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wrong. Now let us all hope we get a great coach that will "pull a Dabo".
Beat the teams we should and some that we were not suppose to beat on paper.
Give the guy some time and stay behind him. After all, except for the trolls,
aren't we all Tigers?
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Orange Blooded [4900]
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to be honest about jack....
Jun 8, 2015, 9:42 PM
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he did go to Omaha a few times and with some pretty darn good teams and players.
but like tommy Bowden he couldn't win the big enchilada.to be honest I wanted him fired years ago
for the loss to usuc TWICE in Omaha,and after that the total dominance ray tanner has had over jack.
I want to thank jack for his tenure at Clemson but business is wins and losses and in the past few years his losses were very bad.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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notice how everyone freezes when you ask that question?
Jun 8, 2015, 10:46 PM
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Nobody was willing to even touch it.
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Legend [16171]
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how many more years should the obvious decline have gone on
Jun 9, 2015, 1:54 PM
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before a change was made? Another 7 or 8?
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110%er [7913]
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does it really matter now that he's been fired
Jun 8, 2015, 10:48 PM
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no turning back the clock now...he's gone and hopefully a new coach can build on his success.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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the point is, many want an action taken without really
Jun 8, 2015, 10:54 PM
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Weighing all the factors involved. People tend to judge a piece of a situation. The reaction to this thread completely supports that. The op never said anything about the firing being a mistake, but people, behaving like automatons, go right back into throwing up the same ole cliches even though they don't fit with the particular context of this thread. It's a question that many have to avoid answering because it hits their giant blind spot.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: the point is, many want an action taken without really
Jun 8, 2015, 10:57 PM
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...."The op never said anything about the firing being a mistake"
You were the OP.... why are you referring to yourself in the 3rd person.
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Hall of Famer [21618]
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original post. Relax***
Jun 8, 2015, 11:01 PM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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117 only has one speed
Jun 9, 2015, 12:04 PM
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78.
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Legend [16171]
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I'm sure the transition would have been smoother had Jack
Jun 9, 2015, 1:47 PM
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done the right thing and stepped down...I certainly didn't think we would win a NC in the next 5 years with him, maybe you thought different?
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Orange Blooded [2482]
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I believe that the sky is not falling.
Jun 9, 2015, 10:48 PM
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You people crack me up. Get a grip. What happened to FSU when Bobby Bowden retired? FSU was fine. And my point is Clemson baseball will be fine. Honestly, who really cares about college baseball anyway? The change is almost a decade too late. No one can coach on any level for forever - no matter how good of a run you had.
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Legend [16946]
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Re: I believe that the sky is not falling.
Jun 10, 2015, 5:00 AM
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Ahhh Bobby Bowden at FSU. The analogy made by people who either don't understand analogies or don't know anything about what actually happened in either situation.
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110%er [6662]
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Re: I believe that the sky is not falling.
Jun 10, 2015, 6:26 AM
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I hate it when people dont "get the point". The point was, FSU had Bowden for a long time and when he left, they moved on. Clemson will move on without Leggett. So simple to understand the "analogy", but no, lets insult those that dont agree with you. Right?
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Legend [16946]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10797
Joined: 1/25/07
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Re: I believe that the sky is not falling.
Jun 10, 2015, 8:42 AM
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Because desire to "move on" doesn't mean he didn't make an analogy, and it doesn't mean that analogy wasn't incorrect. We can disagree about a number of things but saying the two situations are analogous is simply wrong. Bowden participated in the hiring of a coach in waiting and agreed to the terms with which that coach would succeed him. Then he changed his mind and forced FSU's hand. With a head coach in waiting there was little disruption in the program. That isn't what happened here and the consequences are going to be far different. People should have weighed those consequences when they cast their voices to remove Leggett but they didn't. They simply frothed at mouth like any angry horde that gathers momentum. Before he was fired it was all about jumping back to another level - now it's about rebuilding. People are seriously posting about 5 year plans. We fired one of the winningest coaches in the history of the game without ever investing in his program and now we're gonna hope to make it back to the tournament in a few years.
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110%er [6321]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 5728
Joined: 11/2/08
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this is how I look at it...
Jun 9, 2015, 10:51 PM
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I posted this in another thread
there were 2 choices...either release the coach now and not get another year behind, which would have made the same thing happen next year with recruits. Or he would have had to be given a contract extension to be able to recruit and if things did not improve then you have a bigger buy-out. If the coach has one year left, then it would be the same thing because the kids still would not know who their coach was going to be after 1 year.
You also don't keep a coach that has gone downhill is the last several years and HOPE that the baseball team will immediately become a national powerhouse. If he had been retained and nothing improved again, you are right back where we are right now. Jack has had plenty of time to improve and did not.
Let's say you were the top salesman in your company for years and received numerous awards for your work. Then you start slipping yr after yr. Your boss does your evaluation at the end of the year and tells you that you have one year to improve. At your next evaluation there is no improvement. Your boss does exactly what he said he was going to do and releases you from the company. The boss hires another salesman to take your place, but completely understands that it will take him a while to get to know the company and set up his own clients, keep the ones that have not switched and to regain the one's you had lost. That sounds fair to me.
But to answer your questions..
So, how many think we make the NCAA Tournament every year for the next 5 years? with Jack still here, I don't think that would have happened anyway
How many think we win the ACC Championship in the next 5? same answer as above
How many think we win a National Championship in the next 5? same answer
How many think we go to the Super Regionals at least twice in the next 5? Same answer
With those thoughts, if a new coach does at least one of those things, imo, it is an improvement,
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110%er [6108]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13254
Joined: 11/10/00
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Re: This is the part that the majority of Tigernet didn't plan
Jun 10, 2015, 6:48 AM
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Make tourney 5 years in a row? No
Win ACC.. No
Win Cws no
Go to supers 2 out 5. Yes
Same answers I would have said if JL were still coach
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