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Replies: 19
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Moral/ethical question(s) ... what's your opinion?
Oct 2, 2023, 7:31 PM
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You are a well known doctor with a stellar reputation who treats cancer patients. One day a person who does not have an appointment and is not your patient walks right past everyone in the waiting room, straight into your office, says they have no money but they have cancer, and demand that you treat them. So you do. Before you know it, hordes of new, penniless cancer patients are showing up at your office in a similar fashion. You tell them you can't treat them all, and besides, you already have other patients and you will do your best to help as many as possible, but they have to wait in line. They don't listen, and instead the crowd gets bigger and bigger every day.
If somebody doesn't treat these people, they will die. They are human beings who need help. Do you turn them away to die because they don't have money? Do you help all you can for free, while prioritizing your existing paying patients, knowing that the poor ones will die as a result? What about your obligation and committment to existing patients who have already been waiting in line?
I think we all know the answers to most of this, at least from a practical, realistic perspective. My question has more to do with the moral and ethical considerations and obligations as human beings. What would you do? What should any of us be expected to do?
I thought about it because I saw an immigrant from Venezuala interviewed tonight who was bussed to NYC and has cancer, and came here thinking they could get treatment, but instead has had to sleep on the street and in shelters, and is getting no treatment. It's really sad and really tragic, but I'm not sure what the expectation is or should be. Please, I know it may be unavoidable to some extent, but I don't want this to turn into a political argument over the border, or immigration policy per se. Again, I'm more interested in moral obligations and expectations as human beings.
If this is in the wrong forum, forgive me; please have it moved.
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Hall of Famer [24808]
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Maybe Phizer or Moderna could donate some of their $Billion$
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Oct 2, 2023, 7:58 PM
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in profits they made on CoVid...
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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So, boo capitalism in this case.
Oct 2, 2023, 10:00 PM
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I mean I agree, big pharma is scum, I'm just trying to figure out when you do and don't like unfettered capitalism.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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Health care is not unfettered capitalism but ok
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Oct 2, 2023, 10:51 PM
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If it was unfettered capitalism, medical costs would be extremely low.
No insurance or gov programs involved to artificially inflate costs.
Also, no one I know wants zero rules or laws around how companies can conduct business. I don't know anyone who 2ants companies freedom to dump their 2aste in rivers or freedom to add cancer causing agents in food.
But proceed on with your post
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All-In [27149]
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There is no right to healthcare.
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Oct 2, 2023, 8:34 PM
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We should do what we can as individuals (either by donating medical services as a practitioner, or donating to clinics who provide free care), and there is the debate about whether the State should provide subsidized healthcare in varying degrees, but there is no fundamental, natural right to healthcare. Nobody has a right to the skills, talent, or time of providers outside of existing contracts/agreements.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Can't there be a moral obligation to help, even if there is
Oct 2, 2023, 10:10 PM
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no right to receive that help?
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All-TigerNet [12249]
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No one has the moral right to demand that another human
Oct 2, 2023, 10:43 PM
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being provide them the fruits of their labor or expertise without compensation. To demand or force someone to provide labor without compensation, regardless of the reason, is a characteristic of slavery and is the direct antithesis of individual liberty.
To me the moral argument is a societal one and not an individual one. Should a wealthy, civilized society have some kind of safety net for its poor citizens (and only its citizens) to receive life saving healthcare when they can't afford it? A moral case can be made for such treatment where the collective society's tax dollars are appropriated for that purpose.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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I agree that no one has the right to demand that someone
Oct 2, 2023, 11:05 PM
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else provide them the fruits of their labor without compensation. That's why I said:
Can't there be a moral obligation to help, even if there is no right to receive that help?
I like the rest of your answer, but I specifically made it a personal, individual question. What would you do in that situation, if someone came to you for life-saving help, and you had the ability and resources needed to provide that help, but you typically get paid for providing that help, and they can't pay you. Do you help them, or do you turn them away?
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All-In [27149]
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That's pretty much what I said.
Oct 3, 2023, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to Can't there be a moral obligation to help, even if there is ] |
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There is no right to healthcare, but that doesn't mean we don't have a moral duty to do what we can, either as individuals or, if you're so inclined to believe, advocate for government to step in and provide it as a social safety net. In either case, it's fulfilling a moral duty absent of a right to it.
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All-TigerNet [13146]
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My perceived moral obligation to strangers is in an inverse relationship with my age.***
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Oct 2, 2023, 9:18 PM
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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I mean yeah, that's called being a Republican
Oct 2, 2023, 9:54 PM
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sorry, couldn't resist.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Moral/ethical question(s) ... what's your opinion?
Oct 2, 2023, 9:59 PM
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I mean, I don't think you can be considered a moral failure for failing to do the impossible.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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In the scenario I described, it would not be impossible for
Oct 2, 2023, 10:06 PM
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you, as the doctor, to treat as many people as possible without consideration for money, as long as you could make enough profit to provide food and shelter for yourself and your family. Do you treat or turn people away based on their ability to pay?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: In the scenario I described, it would not be impossible for
Oct 2, 2023, 10:11 PM
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I missed the part where you still make enough profit to provide for your family, this sounds like a different question.
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CU Medallion [58424]
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Forgive me - I wrongly assumed that was understood.
Oct 2, 2023, 10:18 PM
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Again, it's about moral obligtions (and limits thereof) of those who have the ability to do so, to take care of those who don't have the ability to take care of themselves.
So, what's your answer?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Forgive me - I wrongly assumed that was understood.
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Oct 2, 2023, 10:42 PM
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No worries.
I think it’s one of those things that’s easy to say you would do the right thing but in practice it would be hard to follow through. I think we are morally obligated to help the less fortunate but id be lying if i said i was living up to that
I do help but not the extent that i could. I focus on my family
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CU Medallion [58424]
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And that's why healthcare and immigration are such
Oct 2, 2023, 11:26 PM
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tough problems. To what extent, morally and ethically, are the able and fortunate required to provide for those who are not as able or as fortunate. It's easy to say that we should help and take care of the less fortunate, especially when we think a separate, remote entity called "government" can do it; but it's very different when we as individuals are directly expected to do it, or it affects us in our local communities. We all want to foucus on our families, as you say, and make life as good as we can for them and ourselves. We might do some volunteer work or contribute to a charity, but we're not living our lives to help others, especially if it interferes too much with our own wants and prosperity.
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Orange Blooded [4020]
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Re: And that's why healthcare and immigration are such
Oct 3, 2023, 1:31 PM
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WWJD?
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Moral/ethical question(s) ... what's your opinion?
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Oct 2, 2023, 10:11 PM
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This patient can go through the ER and get some treatment. It may not be any special meds, but you could get something.
Insurance companies are out of the equation- hospitals use these as wrote offs and the tax payer picks it up.
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Legend [17294]
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Some people say shoot them at the border if they are illegal
Oct 3, 2023, 1:21 PM
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Jesus would be more compassionate and advocate the best treatment that could be provided.
As a society, somewhere in between with greater care provided for citizens _ like via Medicaid? Unfortunately a more pragmatic approach is needed for illegals _ basic treatment and then potentially deportation.
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Replies: 19
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