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Replies: 27
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110%er [6397]
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Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 9:42 AM
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A) Some fans are already upset that Clemson isn't utilizing the portal. And they are blaming the recent decline on Dabo's "failure to adapt" to this new era of college football. If that's you, what would need to happen for your mind to change?
B) Then, there are some fans that do not believe Clemson needs to adapt. They believe that we can continue being an elite program and compete for national titles without using the portal. They do not believe the recent decline is on our inability to use the portal. If that's you, what would need to happen for your mind to be changed?
I'm option A. I would need to see us winning the ACC and making the playoffs next year.
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CU Guru [1895]
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Option C, Thank you
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Jan 11, 2024, 10:42 AM
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Like most new shiny things, many people -- coaches and players -- have embraced the portal blindly. For football teams like Colorado and FSU, this yielded remarkable short-term results, but even FSU fans are embarrassed about the final product. They should be.
But for thousands of players, it will end -- not with losses -- but a tragic loss of opportunity and careers unnecessarily shortened.
I think Dabo has been remarkably cautious -- perhaps too cautious, at times -- to dip into the portal. But we must remember that while Dabo has a remarkable winning percentage, he has always been more interested in building young men, a culture, dads/husbands/citizens, and a legacy that goes beyond the football field.
I think we, as a fan base, have undervalued the highest graduation rate in the entire nation, for example. That will change generations: children and grandchildren, and so on.
Do we understand how remarkable that is?
So I think that he will make more and more use of the portal, but sparingly. If you look at Michigan, Alabama, UGA and Ohio State, they use the portal...sparingly.
He won't compromise the culture to do so. But I believe in the next year you'll see more activity there. They genuinely tried this year.
On the other hand, if he takes us back to the top of the mountain doing it "Dabo's Way", everyone will shake their head in awe that he did it...again.
Anyone who bets against him does so against long odds, his entire life.
I'm buying.
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Option C, Thank you
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:58 AM
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You're no fun.
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CU Guru [1895]
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Re: Option C, Thank you
Jan 11, 2024, 1:50 PM
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You're not the first person to tell me that.
Mama tried.
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All-In [44054]
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I'm fine if we decide to focus primarily on educating young men
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Option C, Thank you ] |
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who happen to also be good football players. That would be great! It's the division III model, and it works well.
But as long as we (or any other school) continues to dumb down college education for a select few, simply because they are a great athlete and we want to be good at football, it diminishes what higher education is all about.
So if we were truly interested in educating bright young men, we would require them to be accepted to school just like non-athletes. They would have to be accepted based on their academic performance, with no weight given to their athletic prowess.
Of course, that won't happen, because there is too much emphasis on football in division I. That's the path we chose at Clemson, and I applaud Dabo for the outstanding academic success of his players within those confines. But let's not act like we aren't compromising Clemson's academic standards considerably when we accept many of these players, because we are.
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All-In [38124]
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Re: I'm fine if we decide to focus primarily on educating young men
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:30 PM
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I agree with you to a point. The way things are in Div 1, Clemson players are receiving degrees which will help them throughout their lives. No they are not all engineering students, but they are still broadening their educations for life after football.
I'm very proud of Clemson for their success on the field of play as well as the classroom.
Go Tigers!!!
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CU Guru [1697]
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Get off your lil pony dude...
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:59 PM
[ in reply to I'm fine if we decide to focus primarily on educating young men ] |
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Clemson has not compromised not an IOTA of it's academic standards by admitting any athlete. What Clemson has actually done is raise those students who may have entered below the Clemson median or mean (you chose the metric), to be at or above the Clemson median or mean (again, you chose the metric) by the time they graduate.
You do not graduate at or very near the top of the graduation rate metrics by admitting students who do not climb above their perceived ability to be academically successful at Clemson. I don't care what the major course of study may be, graduating in 4 years or less is a helluva success, otherwise, you might as well accuse Clemson of being a degree mill. Graduating at all, particularly after professional sports careers, is no small feat either. It still takes the motivation AND intelligence to successfully complete the undergraduate course of study or even the graduate course of study. Clemson has done an excellent job of even motivating young people who are motivated athletes to also become motivated students, particularly around the football program. Clemson, LIKE EVERY SINGLE INSTITUTION OF HIGHER EDUCATION, does not graduate its student-athletes nor even it's general student population at 100%.
So, are you accusing Clemson, as an academic institution, of funneling young athletes through simply for their athletic prowess? I see no evidence of this because the goal is to produce high functioning citizens, and Clemson does that VERY well...
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All-In [44054]
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Yes, Clemson accepts many student-athletes because we want them for sports.
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Jan 12, 2024, 1:25 AM
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These student-athletes would not be admitted to Clemson if they were applying as a non-athlete, as their high school GPAs and test scores are not competitive for acceptance to Clemson.
This isn’t to say that they aren’t capable of earning a Clemson degree. They clearly are, and to Clemson’s credit, that is a factor in admitting student-athletes here. I applaud Clemson for that.
We must remember that part of this success by less qualified student-athletes at Clemson is a result of athlete-friendly majors, easy access to tutors, and special testing accommodations to work around practice, games, and travel. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have nearly the graduation rate we have (which, again, is excellent within the confines of the system in division I sports).
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CU Guru [1697]
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The MISSION of education is to UPLIFT and EMPOWER
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Jan 12, 2024, 10:27 AM
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Clemson serves this mission excellently, and by the way, Clemson admits students from this state (as a land grant institution) that are below the median or mean (again, you chose the metric) who are not athletes. The median and mean are created by having students that fall within a range of a metric that creates the standard that you want to point out. You have to have a plethora to set a standard, so I emphasize that athletes AND non-athletes are in the lower third of the metric.
I submit that there are more that are non-athletes in that lower third than there are athletes, and let's be specific to football players (because they are your example of lowering the "standard"), because the total admittance of incoming students is around 4500. Clemson football may bring in a MAXIMUM of 30-35 scholly and walk-on athletes. 30-35 out of 4500 is a BLIP on the academic standard.
This means that Clemson Football contributes 0.78% of the scores that contribute to "lowering the standard" (in YOUR humble opinion). Just as well, your assertion that football players would not be admitted because of high school GPA and test scores, I suspect is your continuation of an ancient narrative bolstering the dumb jock stereotype. I submit that you should not have access to any students specific GPA and test score because of privacy laws... but let me ask, do you have access to know athlete's and non-athlete's academic records and test scores? If it is open to the public, I would love to see that info myself (not the overall, but the breakout of athlete vs non-athlete) so that I can congratulate and encourage our athletes in their pursuits rather than do what you're doing lamenting that they were ever admitted to Clemson.
Get some joy in your life, go get a hug or something... your degradation of young men who will wear that same ring as you (assuming that you are a graduate) is really sad, and I am praying for you.
WWJD? I submit that He would welcome the "least" of these...
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Freshman [2]
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Re: Option C, Thank you
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:21 PM
[ in reply to Option C, Thank you ] |
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We definitely tried to use it this year. Even offered a few guys, namely on the O-line, scholarships. One of the big reasons they didn't want to come is because we can't guarantee a starting spot let alone playing time.
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Letterman [278]
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Re: Option C, Thank you
Jan 11, 2024, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Option C, Thank you ] |
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Ohio State fans were up in arms a week ago over tOSU’s perceived lack of use of the portal. They see the Colorados, FSUs and Alabamas and want to bring in all kinds of talent. Alabama, and, to a lesser extent Michigan, were ahead of the game by a year or two. Just like A&M was with paying players. Now, with NIL, the portal has erupted into free agency. Most portalers are backups or players that never panned out. But a growing number are really good players that want mo money and/or want to go to a contender. These are proven players that can instantly help a team in an area of need. Of course, they want top dollar. Good players probably got 10-15 legitimate teams after them. The player has to want the school. The player has to like the offer. The school needs to be able to offer the player the ability to contend and the right amount. I think the really good portal players are going to get more and more NIL, while high school recruits will get less and less. Certainly 5 star and high 4 stars will get theirs. Maybe Clemson doesn’t want to get involved in the Portal (Free Agency). Maybe they can’t afford it. Maybe the right players haven’t come along that match what Clemson can offer. Maybe we will have congress pass some sort of legislation and this will all become a thing of the past. Maybe the next thing will be even worse than we currently have.
P.S. Ohio State got a transfer qb, rb, and OG so Ohio State fans or ok for now.
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Hall of Famer [22740]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:14 AM
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Lots of grey area between A and B.
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Standout [311]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:41 AM
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I think people are putting way too much value in the portal. I would like to see it used sparingly. We have a position group that’s down in numbers, plug a hole here and there.
I think people are underestimating coaching, development, and evaluation. That’s really where I think we dropped off a cliff. We made our run with elite DL play, elite QB play, great WR play, and solid OL development.
I think the Bates and Hall hires on the DL were disasters. Hall couldn’t recruit or coach. Bates could recruit, but nobody developed under him. We went from having a two deep DL that could dominate the opposing OL, even against playoff competition. Those DL under those two consistently underperformed.
Love Jeff Scott, and really think he could recruit and coach them up, but man if his last batch of guys was a bust. Maybe they end up being more productive with him as their coach, but he wasn’t so we got what we got. Grisham I don’t see it with the coaching, but jury’s still out on his recruiting. We missed a lot in his earlier classes, but he definitely hit big in 2024.
Caldwell couldn’t recruit the big names, but in retrospect he did a pretty good job of coaching up what he got. I think towards the end he was slipping even there. It was time for him to go, but his replacement was even worse in the coaching department.
I think we have the DL coaching and recruiting corrected. I think we have the OL coaching and recruiting corrected. Time will tell on the WRs and QBs.
I think in the world of a transfer portal going out of control, there is a place for a program like Clemson that prides itself on development. We’ve seen some short term success at places like FSU. Do they maintain it past one great year? They took a real hit at QB and WR.
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Orange Blooded [3569]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:45 AM
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There's also C) The ability to utilize the portal has not been there for several reasons.
1) Portal players that will be impact players are mainly looking for 1 year NIL deals and want guarantees.
2) There's usually not alot of room on the roster, Dabo does mostly a good job of retaining his players in this Era.
3)Players in the portal are mostly backup quality with the exception of the top guys that have a destination already in mind. Getting a backup vs getting a developmental project player becomes the debate.
The stars will have to align for Dabo to use the portal, it's gotta be someone who absolutely wants to be at Clemson and is willing to earn pt. Most the high profile transfers have been cases of tampering or NIL bidding wars. I'm fine with Dabo being selective, as you know Clemson doesn't throw out volumes of offers to hs kids why would he do that with the portal guys? Eventually there will be players that see the loyalty Clemson has to their guys and will want to come. The other issue with recruiting guys who will be at school for less than 2 years is there is nothing alluring about playing for what was a very young staff, no NIL and a narrative that Clemson is regressing and not developing players hurts recruiting short term players the most.
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Orange Blooded [3901]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:51 AM
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I'm A as well.
The portal can be used to add depth not overhaul the roster.
I had much rather use the portal than take kids with no offers .
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:59 AM
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But what would change your mind?
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Orange Blooded [3901]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:16 PM
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But what would change your mind?
Making a run in the 2024 playoffs would change my mind.
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Heisman Winner [140559]
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I don't identify as either.***
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:59 AM
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110%er [6397]
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Re: I don't identify as either.***
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:01 PM
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You have the freedom of choice to decide how you identify.
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Heisman Winner [140559]
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I have chosen...
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:11 PM
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neither.
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All-In [44054]
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Just as we suspected.***
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:22 PM
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All-In [38124]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 11:59 AM
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I think we need a lot of "B" with a little "A" mixed in. Things may change in the future, but that is the way I feel right now.
Go Tigers!!!
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:01 PM
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Is there anything that would change your mind though?
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All-In [38124]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:09 PM
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If we start winning 7-8 games per year on a regular basis, we'll have to try anything to help. As it stands now, we are literally a few plays away from being 12-1 or 7-6. Things can change quickly in this "no rules" world we all live in now. Just for the sake of honesty, I did have "liberal" in quotes, but changed it to "no rules".
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All-In [44054]
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I am option A.
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:14 PM
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I would need to see evidence that we are once again an elite program, which for me would mean winning the ACC and finishing in the top half of the playoff seeding in 2024.
The reality right now is that we aren't an elite program, and haven't been close to elite the last three years. Those playoff appearances are becoming more distant memories...
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All-In [38124]
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Re: I am option A.
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:22 PM
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Aaaah... But we do have memories. Hopefully next year will be a better season.
Go Tigers!!! Beat Georgia!!!
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Orange Blooded [4947]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:30 PM
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Intriguing questions and my first issue was deciding which camp I am in. I was somewhere in between until the last month revealed several weaknesses of the portal including:
- Large roster turnover of teams that rely on the portal (largely due to approval of multiple transfers)
- Tampering that is required to get in early on players entering the portal
- “pay for play” model that is required to land top talent from the portal
Based on those factors and Clemson’s high retention rate of contributing players I land in camp “B”
For me to believe that Dabo cannot be Successful using this model I would need to see
1) Top teams retain depth while recruiting portal players
2) Statistical indicators that the ability for freshman to impact top 10 rosters is reduced due to the portal
3) Indicators that continually pulling top talent from the portal is sustainable year over year. My current expectation is that this approach will result in unsustainable NIL support (even for big programs) or large roster turnover after a “down year”.
Say what you want about Dabo’s approach, but if he continues recruiting at a high level and retains a greater percentage of roster depth than our competitors he will be in position to compete in the playoffs.
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Starter [376]
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Re: Just out of curiosity
Jan 12, 2024, 10:49 AM
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Interesting choices. But both choices are based on the premise that utilizing the transfer portal (or not) determines success. If I'm a member of fan group A, Clemson would have to utilize the portal and win in order for it to be a "mind changer" Fan group B requires Clemson to stay the course and lose for that to be a "mind changer".
I would choose fan group B. I like who we are, where we've been and where we're headed. Hoping my mind isn't changed.
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