|
Replies: 61
| visibility 3,351
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
Stark Raving Brad - November 21
4
Nov 20, 2023, 10:50 PM
|
|
Opponent: Boise State. November 19th.
Most of you aren’t going to want to read this. It’s not even specifically about the Boise game, per se. So, I suggest you turn away now. Seriously; now....
I loathe Brad Brownell. I freely admit it. Indeed, when his name comes up, I conjure something so vile, most of the time I simply have to walk away. Never met the man; no. But I don’t have to. I can see the personal selfishness and arrogance he has just in the way he Coaches. And let’s make absolutely sure here: we’re talking about the Coaching of young men with possible professional opportunity. So, there’s nothing that pisses me off more about Brownell’s Coaching style than the fact that he unequivocally gives favoritism to those players he most empathizes with. In literal terms, it's a sin... the abuse of someone else’s free will; and no doubt, a sin that will haunt Brownell.
He's not the first nor last Coach to do this. Dabo Swinney, himself, has been oft accused for the same sort of blind spot at times, playing Dabo mini-me’s in the walk-on Wide Receiver slot to the detriment of others’ playing time. And stories of other Coaches who have buried players at the end of the bench for nothing more than personal dislike (or worse) are legend in Basketball. It must be an occupational hazard – “kind of like” {emphasis} some physical abuse by Policemen, or infidelity for Firemen, or drug abuse by actresses, singers, and the like, or embezzlement for CPA’s. Kind of like. But so much so in the Coaching profession, you see it all the time if you really watch. Gene Hackman was spot on in Hoosiers with this.
Sadly, often the target of the “improper use” is a very talented player; but also often a talented player who simply doesn’t play the game the way that the Coach either wants it played, or worse, the way the Coach actually played the game as a younger self. If it is the latter of these, then it gets very personal, and “improper use” isn’t a strong enough term.
The key thing to remember here is that College Basketball, even with NIL, is not a profession. The vast majority of guys will have to go to the pros to make a living at the Game. Only the very few will end up like Armando Bacot of North Carolina, making a living being very good in College, but not really good enough for the pros. So, College Basketball is still rigidly a developmental proposition, more so than the “G” League, and definitively more than International ball.
A classic case of this problem (imho) was a young man who played at North Carolina back in the 1980’s by the name of Dave Popson. Dean Smith really didn’t like Popson, mostly it appeared because he didn’t know how to play good defense. But Popson was 6’10” and ran like a gazelle. He was the antithesis of the stereotypical white, big man: lean, mobile, quick. He had a good enough jump shot, but was lethal going to the rim or out on the break, and a good rebounder. Unfortunately, most of this was 1-on-1 stuff; and Smith, the ultra-team-oriented Coach, didn’t like it. In Popson’s Junior year, Dean had Popson jump the opening tip because of his athleticism and length, but would uniformly substitute him out at the first dead ball – often only seconds into the first possession. This happened, game after game. In all, Popson averaged 14 minutes per game over 4 years at UNC, and 22 his senior year. That he then got drafted in the 4th round by the Pistons, and managed to hang on for 4 years of pro ball, is simply a testament to his talent. That it was only 4 years, is a complete condemnation of how he was developed. He never should have gone to UNC. It wasn’t a fit for his long-term future, and Smith should have assisted the kid to get to a program that would develop him. Indeed, it was Smith’s responsibility as a Coach to do that.
Just a couple of years ago, we had a young kid come through Clemson who generally fit this description (imho), Jonathan Baehre. Baehre’s currently in his 3rd year of European ball, and putting up somewhat smallish stats for Ludwigsburg in the German BBL. His career in College hardly recommends this though, as he played 2 years at UNC-Asheville before getting to Clemson. Once here at Clemson he was limited to a single season because of injury. But even in that season, Baehre languished. His stat line was 16.8 minutes, 3.4 shots, 44% 2-point FG%, and 3.4 rebounds, all per game. Most big men who are going on to Pro ball easily get all of that in a single Half.
But Clemson was 3-guard oriented, and to a fault, that year (20/21). It isn’t coincidence that Clemson’s Head Coach played Guard in his days in College. For that season, the trio of Amir Dawes, Nick Honor, and Clyde Trapp averaged combined 25.8 MPG, and the guards as a whole (to include John Newman, Chase Hunter, and Alex Hemenway) averaged 20.6 minutes. That’s 6 players at 21 MPG, or 125 MPG, or 60% of the total game.
We “Averaged” a 3-guard team on the floor that year... even as none of those guys will ever – ever – scratch the pro leagues.
Which is weird, because Clemson most likely had more talent in their Bigs that year as Clemson has ever had before – ever. So in contrast, the 6-big men on the squad averaged only 16.1 MPG if you include Aamir Simms (29.7 MPG on his own). The other 5-big men averaged only 12.7 MPG.
12.7 for a group of Big Men who 4 of 6 are already in the Pros (A Simms, J Baehre, H Tyson, O Prosper), and at least 1 of the other 2 is definitively headed there as well (PJ Hall). Given that Lynn-J Kidd is currently averaging 17.5 Points and 9.8 rebounds over 24 minutes for Va Tech in his Senior year, there’s a possibility that all 6 will go pro.
There was so much talent in the Bigs that year that 2 of the 6 transferred out, even as another went pro. And yet, Clemson “Averaged” a 3-Guard team on the floor for the whole year.
For this Coaching prowess, we bombed out in the NCAA 1st round against Rutgers.
And Jonathan Baehre? The kid who came to Clemson needing Minutes and Experience because he had only played in 47 college games TOTAL prior his Senior season at Clemson? Well, Baehre got Dave Popson’d to the hilt. While Al-Amir Dawes was getting 25.5 MPG, and Nick Honor was getting 23.3 MPG, and Clyde Trapp was getting 28.8 MPG,
Jonathan Baehre averaged 16.8 minutes for his Senior and final season.
To put that in perspective even more: Baehre averaged 1 whole Minute Per Game (!) more than did Alex Hemenway, and only 1.2 MPG more than John Newman. 1 freaking minute - EACH. And yet Baehre still toils away in the German League some 3 years later.....
{you will not see me turn away in rage at this point, but it is there}
There’s a kid on this current team that is in the same boat. He’s being improperly used because Brad Brownell is an “Indiana Defensive Coach” first and forever. The kid in question has all the athletic talent of the top 50% of NBA players. But he doesn’t yet have the skills. So, he needs to play, and play a helluva lot. But he’s already been yanked off the court in one game (along with others). The impact of the Portal will make it ever so worse. The kid no longer needs to even be at Clemson – it simply won’t work out because Clemson cannot give him what he needs. Indeed, Clemson needs him much more than the other way around.
Coach – I sincerely hope that the spectre of Dean Smith literally haunts your every possible sleep.
Welcome to Stark Raving Brad....
|
|
|
|
 |
Orange Blooded [4063]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 4550
Joined: 3/6/01
|
OM59. Do U swear you are not JKs alter ego?
3
Nov 20, 2023, 10:59 PM
|
|
That was well-written. But I hope to enjoy a basketball season without incessant sniping from both sides of that inappropriate until March vitriol.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
personally, I thought the team looked much better against Boise than Davidson
1
Nov 20, 2023, 11:13 PM
|
|
indeed. more well coached. I really like listening to Terrance Oglesby, and wish he would do more games. He made several comments about how the Coaching staff had approached the two games differently, and hopefully people were attentive.
But to be honest it was the 20/21 season that put me over the edge with Brownell - just so very much talent completely wasted. And Baehre's story was just truly sad.
I'll try to hold the sniping to a minimum, and simply make it about drawing out the facts, if that is possible. Honest Injun.
Be well! and #GoTigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Figured it out
Nov 20, 2023, 11:22 PM
|
|
You are a Tar Heel basketball fan. Now I get the anger/hate. Makes me happy!
Be
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
actually it was my step-father who was the Tar Heel grad and fan
3
Nov 21, 2023, 1:27 AM
|
|
I was raised as such, and played BBall through my freshman year in college at a GA DII school.
But I went to middle/high school in SC, and I am 3rd Generation Clemson grad on my father's side. Truly I was a BBall fan first before coming to Clemson and falling in love with Death Valley.
But as a consequence I know as much about UNC BBall as Clemson BBall, and certainly more about BBall in general than the vast, vast majority of supposed Clemson BBall fans.
As to suggesting to PJ Hall that he would be better off in Chapel Hill than Clemson, one only has to look at what happened to UNC last year. There's no guarantee that Hall could have recreated Brady Manek's magic from the year before, but surely Hall would have been better than Pete Nance, lol.
It also would have given Hall much more experience at the 4 position with Bacot already entrenched at Center for the Holes. The suggestion was purely about what was in Hall's own personal best interests, rather than what was "best" for Clemson or UNC. You can see that Brownell, et al have created some movement for Hall to get him to the 3-point line, but not nearly as much as Hubert Davis would have.
And unlike stupid MF'ers like you, I really give a #### about these kids. So eff off, punk.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24855]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42672
Joined: 7/31/10
|
Go F yourself.... You're the most obnoxious MFer on TNet.***
2
Nov 29, 2023, 12:30 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
2
Nov 21, 2023, 10:47 AM
|
|
Lmao. Back to jonathon baehre as if you didnt get schooled enough past time you brought him up.
1. Jonathon Baehre is a 6'10 power forward that never played the 3 at UNCA, Clemson, or professional ball
2. He only started about a quarter of his games at UNCA and his best season he only averaged 7 ppg against bad competition
3. He tore the same acl twice while at clemson
4. All of the guards you mentioned could play professional ball overseas if they wanted to.
5. In the year he played at clemson he was 5th in minutes per game, 7th in points per 40 minutes, 5th in rebounds, and 7th in assists.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
THIS is when I really start to Hate you Brownell Bros.
Nov 21, 2023, 11:23 AM
|
|
- when you OVERTLY lie.
“All those guards could play overseas.”
Nick Honor and AA Dawes couldn’t get a good pick-up game in Europe. Screw those midgets.
And no one said anything about Baehre playing the 3. With Tyson and OMax you had two young but impactful 3’s without playing Baehre there.
Baehre, Simms, and Hall should have rotated in the 4 and 5. That’s 70-80 minutes to share for 3 guys, or 25 apiece.
This was easy IF you had an actual Head Coach.
The fact that most, if not all, those bigs go pro makes Buffoonell look like even more if an idiot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: THIS is when I really start to Hate you Brownell Bros.
1
1
Nov 21, 2023, 11:38 AM
|
|
Here is a quote from your lst post about jonathon baehre:
"And this even though tyson, prosper, and baehre are all wing types at the next level, not PF, and should gave been playing it all along in college"
So are you admitting that you were wrong in your original thread about baehre?
And yes, dawes and honor could each play overseas if they wanted. The fact that you dont believe so really illustrates how little knowledge you have of college basketball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
209 pounds. Jonathan Baehre is listed at 209 lbs - he's the same as Beau Collins
Nov 21, 2023, 2:46 PM
|
|
a freaking Wide Receiver.
So, yes, I exactly stated, "SHOULD have been playing it {wing} all along in college."
That doesn't mean that I wouldn't have played him in a rotation at 4 as well JUST TO GET HIM MINUTES.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't have forced minutes to both PJ Hall and O-Max Prosper, even as they were Freshmen, just to get their development in the program kick-started. And just to keep them in the program.
That doesn't mean I wouldn't have taken the 6 Bigs, and played them as close to 20 minutes per to take up the 3-4-5 slots in every game.
Indeed, this most current post was purely about "Getting Minutes", and specifically as lead-in to how it applied to the current problem. So I've simply showed how one could have gotten Baehre the time on the Court that he needed, with the basic premise that we had plenty enough Big talent to not to have to play a 3-Guard offense with a 6'3" wing. And we didn't actually have good options at the 3 with the smaller players: Hemenway can't play defense; Trapp couldn't shoot consistently.
In other words, Baehre and O-Max get their minutes, and Clemson "possibly" loses 2-3 more games that year - c'est la vie. It's about the kids, and not Brownell's job. Even still, with the bigger lineup, and kids having played all year, I'd bet we don't lose to Rutgers.
Otherwise, and as happened, Brownell was just disingenuous to the kid in the end.
To some degree, we see the current kid that I'm talking about being split in the same way. Some on here have talked about playing him at 4 to get to the pros. IMO, that's isn't what he needs in College. He needs to develop the offensive handle, and on-the-floor defense of a good 3 first. Problem is that he may actually never grow to the size of an NBA-4, and his frame certainly doesn't appear to be that big.
But Brownell can't seem to get him minutes as either a 3 or a 4. Brownell is still playing Alex Hemenway at 3 instead - lofl, what a disgrace.
All of this is purely because Brownell is scared for his little job. You'd think the $15+ Million that he's already made would be enough for him and his wife. You'd think he'd be rich enough now to Coach for the kids, and not for his Job. You'd think....
But anyone who thinks that Honor and Dawes are pro-Basketball players, doesn't think much. Oh, I'm sure you could possibly slot them in a 3rd level Serbian league or something, LOL, but that isn't what I mean by saying "pro player". That's semi-pro at best, possibly not even as good as Top-100 US College.
Brownell played those guys until they dropped because he has to play his patented little 3-Guard offense, and without regard for the true talents on his team.
You seem very desperate, Mountaineers. Am I stepping on toes with my posts? I ### well hope so....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: 209 pounds. Jonathan Baehre is listed at 209 lbs - he's the same as Beau Collins
1
1
Nov 21, 2023, 3:17 PM
|
|
Now this is indeed hilarious.
In a year that we made the NCAA tournament, you would have preferred that we played freshman more to potentially keep o-max even if it meant us losing a few more games and likely not making the tournament.
And with baehre, you are saying if he would have gotten 5-7 more minutes per game, he would have been significantly better? He was about the 7th most productive player on our team with the minutes he got. You wanted him to steal minutes from our guards and play a position that he has never played in his entire career at 6'10 fresh off of 2 ACL tears? Keep in mind that many ACC teams play 3 guards so he would have had to guard people much smaller and quicker.
Im glad that you are not a coach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar.....
Nov 21, 2023, 4:34 PM
|
|
1. If keeping O-Max meant losing a couple of more games, you would have made them up the next year, and likely made the NCAAT then. Plus the roster would have been healthier over more years.
But go on... tell us how losing to Rutgers was so important in 2021. Typical "Coach fears for his job" mentality. You can keep your Rutgers ########...
2. Actually, I have two suggestions relative the 5-7 minutes.
Yes, those minutes were important to Baehre; AND THEY AREN'T YOUR MINUTES TO STEAL FROM HIM. Brownell recruited him to Clemson, and then wasted him on the bench. The word is "callous". The word is "disingenuous". The word is "arrogant". F**K Brownell. It's not his Career to F**K with! It is the Kids' career, and always was....
Secondly, if Baehre had any inkling that he was important to Clemson, he might have come back for his last available year. Sure he was 24; but his best bet for a longer more lucrative career was always to develop as much as he could before going pro. That's why he came to Clemson in the first place. So more minutes in 2021 might have meant a Baehre on the team in 2022. Given that he's playing in Europe, clearly he would have made us better. And yes, made it more likely that we made the NCAAT in 2022 - just another year that Brownell air-balled the Tourney....
3. Match-ups are game to game, team to team. There's no reasonable way to argue that in summary. The fact that you bring this up in this way, shows just how disingenuous you are. But it's also a FACT that matchups swing both ways. If at 3, Baehre had had to guard a smaller quicker player, then the inverse holds true at Clemson's offensive end as well. You agains show your willingness to lie by trying to play only one side of the equation.
But what's really funny is that not a single dang person seems to be too concerned about Joe Girard playing defense, and that guy couldn't guard a nightstand. No, what's appallingly obvious at this point is that Brownell can find a place for a white kid (I'm white) like JG or Hemenway even if they play poor defense, but he seems to have a different standard at other times. Your words, not mine....
Worse, if you're saying that Baehre was playing on knees that weren't ready, then that's on you and Brownell, as well.
And as to "play a position that he has never played": I thought Brownell was a "developmental Coach"? Again, he seems to follow through only when he wants.
At the end of the day, Bo Peep, you have one big-azz problem: for all your claims about supposed bad knees, positional match-up deficiencies, lack of productivity, et al, the kid is playing the position in Germany as we speak. Seems people that are not in Clemson have an entirely different view of what Jonathan Baehre can do.
And that is indeed the problem: Brownell has played his self-serving politics until actual Clemson Basketball no longer matters, only the Brad Brownell politics....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2003]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2872
Joined: 2/10/02
|
Brad's sycophants
2
Nov 21, 2023, 4:39 PM
|
|
Don't let facts get in the way of protecting their boy
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar.....
1
2
Nov 21, 2023, 6:25 PM
[ in reply to I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar..... ] |
|
Jesus man, you are seriously off your rocker. 😂😂
1. So you would have played omax more as a freshman, which would have probably led to us losing more games and not making the tournament. You would have then started OMax over collins the next year despite collins being a better rebounder and scorer that year. Great foresight.
2. Just because you recruit somebody doesn't mean you are obligated to play them. Baehre was probably our 7th most productive player on that team. He wasn't going to play the 3 at clemson. During the season we are speaking of, had had the 8th best FG%, 7th in points per 40 minutes, 4th in rebounds, and 7th in assists per game. He did all of this in spite of getting the 5th most minutes on the team. All the metrics say he should have gotten less minutes.
3. You are right match ups are game to game. I would rather not have my 6'10 guy on a guard especially when that 6'10 guy never really showed much post dominance. Also if you could actually read, i have cited girard's lack of defense many times on this board. Also, let's not pull the race card, psycho. Girard is the leading returning scorer in the ACC.
Lastly, jonathon baehre isnt playing "the position" (SF) in Germany "as we speak". He is currently the tallest player on their team and is listed as a Center. LMAO. He currently comes of the bench and is their 8th highest scorer on the team. Sucks when the facts aren't on your side.
https://basketball.eurobasket.com/team/MHP-Riesen-Ludwigsburg/41?Page=1
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
Re: I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar.....
Nov 21, 2023, 10:27 PM
|
|
1. You wouldn't have needed to recruit Collins out of the Portal with O-Max returning. And please don't compare the two, that's idiotic - only one's playing in the NBA.
2. Playing, not "starting", O-Max would have been enough. The kid only got about 9 minutes a game as a FR. But now he's in the NBA because someone - not f*cking Brad - developed the kid. Someone at Marquette. Brad did nothing at Clemson but play all the older guys he thought could save his little job.
Like I said, you can keep your measly loss to Rutgers. If that's Brad's big accomplishment in the last 3 years, you can keep him too. Please.
3. Don't limit yourself to defending Girard - you've got to defend Hemenway too. Both are "white", and both suck at Defense. Both somehow get minutes though. And you better bet that I am "holding back" a-hole. If you really want me to bring up the crap that has been spewed by Brownell over time on the subject of not playing kids who can't play defense, I am freaking happy to do it. In fact you only have to go back a couple of days to start picking out stuff where Brownell has been entirely self-serving. You really want to go there? I'd think twice if I was you, because it sure won't take long to show how duplicitous Brownell can be.
4. You're going to preach on what Baehre (listed at PF) isn't doing in Germany? Thanks for making my point that his development was crapped all over by Brad Brownell while here at Clemson....
what a doofus.
But mostly, you people are just complete a-holes: "just because you recruit somebody doesn't mean you are obligated to play them." That may work for High School kids in need of development just get on the floor, but it doesn't apply to 3rd-year players transferring in from other colleges. These players are transferring specifically for playing time - that's all. Coaches know what they are getting beforehand, and those who lie to kids just so they can build depth should be fired immediately and banned from the Profession. SEC Football Coaches used to get charged with having "Plantation mentality". If I've ever heard someone espouse that ethic, it was you just then.
I don't necessarily question his views on Race, but I sure as hell question his views on his responsibilities to these kids now. F*ck Brownell's job and him with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16939]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10792
Joined: 1/25/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar.....
1
Nov 22, 2023, 9:42 AM
|
|
If you bothered to look at his 3 seasons at his team in germany, you would realize that he has always come off of the bench as a back up big man and has hd very pedestrian scoring numbers. This season has been his best year statistically despite the injuries.
If we only played him 5 more minutes per game, he would probably be in the NBA. Geez brownell!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Starter [364]
TigerPulse: 77%
Posts: 928
Joined: 11/18/23
|
How many professional players has Brad developed?
1
Nov 22, 2023, 10:06 AM
|
|
Kids going to other schools in order to be professional-ready don’t count.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16939]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10792
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar..
1
Nov 22, 2023, 10:39 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'll admit it, you're one helluva Liar..... ] |
|
You argued OleMike was wrong about the position he is playing. But you were wrong because you used a website with bad information. I was simply providing information (I’ve made no other comment on this thread). I would consider it a primary source since it’s the actual league and team websites. I never argued he would be in the NBA - but he is in his 3rd season in a (note “a”, not “the”) top Euro League. The ability to be retained at that level probably places him in the upper quartile of all the talent to come through Clemson in the last 13 years. But, as usual, if it doesn’t serve the pro-Brownell narrative there is no one you aren’t willing to throw under the bus. For the last 7-8 years, Brownell (in a constant scramble for job security) has failed to develop much of the best talent to come through the program. Yet, even with a win now philosophy, he’s made 2 tourneys in the last 6 seasons. He’s made 1 in the 5 seasons since the Sweet Sixteen season which was supposed to be the demarcation point of Brad’s arrival as a major coach. He’s the 3rd longest tenured coach in the ACC. He should be finishing in the top 3 every season. Not be apologized for when he can’t even make the NCAA tourney.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
|
|
|
|
|
Starter [364]
TigerPulse: 77%
Posts: 928
Joined: 11/18/23
|
Can you list the accomplishments for Brad?
1
Nov 22, 2023, 9:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: THIS is when I really start to Hate you Brownell Bros. ] |
|
I’ll start:
1) World Championship baby!
2) A sweet 16. One. Never in the round of 32 otherwise, but then again we’ve only made 3 tournaments if you include the play-in win then subsequent loss.
3) ??? I’ll wait…
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: Can you list the accomplishments for Brad?
Nov 29, 2023, 1:20 AM
|
|
Not a Brownell pumper...but to be fair thats like half of Clemson basketballs total resume. Like it or not we are the South Carolina of ACC basketball.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22931]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11591
Joined: 10/12/14
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
Nov 21, 2023, 10:56 AM
|
|
Man, that’s a lot. Get a life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
Nov 21, 2023, 11:37 AM
|
|
Tar Heels are miserable. I find this enjoyable and predictable. Looking forward to their regular season ending loss to N.C. State.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
LOFL, could you be a bigger, more presumptive moron?***
Nov 21, 2023, 2:50 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
my first sentence was for you "not to read" - you ignored that
Nov 21, 2023, 2:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21 ] |
|
then you presume to tell me what to do with my time. LOFL, quite the little blowhard control freak, aren't we?
Whatever; I don't report to you, pumpkin.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Thanks Cornell!!
Nov 21, 2023, 3:04 PM
|
|
The Smith - Popson reference solidified my confidence in Brownell!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
well, that's one thing I've never been called before, I'll give you that....***
Nov 21, 2023, 3:15 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22931]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11591
Joined: 10/12/14
|
Re: my first sentence was for you "not to read" - you ignored that
Nov 21, 2023, 6:05 PM
[ in reply to my first sentence was for you "not to read" - you ignored that ] |
|
It’s a figure of speech, moran. And now another one comes to mind - Lighten up, Francis.
And to call anyone a blowhard after that rant is absolutely priceless.
Carry on, princess.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
blowhard***
Nov 21, 2023, 9:56 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24855]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42672
Joined: 7/31/10
|
Yes... You DO!***
1
Nov 29, 2023, 12:33 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2003]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 2872
Joined: 2/10/02
|
So you don't think BB will give
1
Nov 21, 2023, 3:58 PM
|
|
RJ or Chauncey minutes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
I'd rather not mention the kid by name - I don't know him personally in any way
Nov 21, 2023, 4:45 PM
|
|
it's his life and career, not mine.
Secondly, you can read the "Box Score" just as well as me, if not better. It is what it is, so far.
What I am arguing about is that neither Jonathan Baehre nor O-Max Prosper appreciated how minutes were doled out. It didn't really work out for them here.
But I'm not arguing something from a "perspective"; I'm arguing what has already come to pass. People need to see the situations for what they are, not what Brownell or Clemson want to portray.
It's like the situation noted above: Mountaineers suggests that Baehre couldn't play defense against 3-Guards. I point out that we've got two Guards on the current squad, Girard and Hemenway, neither of which is a M2M defensive presence in anyway. Why then the concern about Baehre? The word is "duplicitous". And if they're willing to be disingenuous about something in the past, how honest will they be about things yet occurred?
The Brownell Bull-scheatt in Clemson is out of fricking control...
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: I'd rather not mention the kid by name - I don't know him personally in any way
Nov 29, 2023, 1:30 AM
|
|
I can buy your argument in regards to Prosper, with Baehre you lose me. Looked up hus stats at UNCA. 2nd year in the program only averaged 7.1PPG. UNCA is a solid program, not quite mid-major but a good small school program (being from Western NC, I enjoyed going to game there.) However, The NBA was never in his future given his injuries, build, lack of production, etc. If the NBA thought there was any meat left on the bone they wouldve have grabbed him fkr the d-league. Theres a reason the NBA doesnt draft 24 year olds.
In regards to Girard, you're right. He sucks on defense. His lack of M2M abilities playing in Cuses zone is apparent. However, 16pts with 4 made from behind the arc is worth the tradeoff. Arguably, without him tonight we dont win the game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3303]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1574
Joined: 11/9/11
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
Nov 22, 2023, 9:34 AM
|
|
I was trying to give you an award and my fat thumb hit TD. Sorry about that. Great book! Great insights as well! I also screamed nepotism when Will Swinney started ahead of true physical specimens.
Brad Brownell may be the worst coach in basketball history. He’s the person Shane Beamer was based on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13579]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8958
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
Nov 22, 2023, 10:44 AM
|
|
"Brad Brownell may be the worst coach in basketball history. He’s the person Shane Beamer was based on."
Ouch, even I felt that one... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
Nov 29, 2023, 12:25 AM
|
|
Yeah, but we won tonight! Go Tigers!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
|
|
|
|
|
Starter [364]
TigerPulse: 77%
Posts: 928
Joined: 11/18/23
|
walk-on Wide Receiver slot to the detriment of others playing time
1
Nov 22, 2023, 9:57 AM
|
|
Never happened, ever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Walk-On [127]
TigerPulse: 92%
Posts: 74
Joined: 12/21/21
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
3
Nov 25, 2023, 10:56 AM
|
|
Interesting thoughts. Totally wacko, aberrant, and almost completely wrong, but interesting. Jonathan Bahre stunk; Brownell's coaching methods produce more from limited material than any other coach. Get back on your meds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24855]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42672
Joined: 7/31/10
|
It's gonna take more than meds for that one.***
2
Nov 29, 2023, 12:34 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
3
Nov 29, 2023, 1:03 AM
|
|
Interesting read to say the least, my thoughts:
1) I'm neither a Brownell hater or pumper. I think on his best days he's above average, and on most days he's run of the mill. The same could be said for our basktball program as a whole.
2) Im not a basketball talent scout, nor do I claim to be, but I doubt you're talent evaluations. At the most basic level, NBA talent level guys dont come to Clemson. That doesnt mean they cant be developed, and that doesnt mean that 4 star guys still wont choose us, but at the most common sense level these aren't the players on our roster. PJ Hall will probably have a chance at the NBA, but given his age (he's a 4th year player, NBA places a higher value on drafting younger and developing them earlier) and his injury history he will probably be a 2nd round pick of free agent.
3) I think your logic has a flaw. Playing guys for minutes, if they arent yet ready is a detriment to the entire team. Sure, experience early plays dividends later, but playing guys for development at the expense of other game ready, albeit, less talented players isnt correct either. Additionally, college is a guard driven game. The number of 6'3" guys are a dime a dozen and rosters are stacked accordingly. The number of 6'9" guys and greater who can legitimately play the 3 spot, shoot from deep, handle and pass, and post up are rare. There's a reason the college teams arent loaded with Kevin Durants or Giannis Antetokounmpos. Those dudes are rare. Theyve been indentified early and are either playing ball overseas or are committing to Duke/UNC/Kentucky etc. If Baehre is the player you think he is UNCA wouldnt have been his destination, Clemson his transfer, or Euro ball his destination. If he playes to your level the NBA will take notice, but most likely he's destined for a career of Euro ball (no shame in that.)
4) We are a Hunter Tyson type of program. Get the talented player, utilize the skill he has, hopefully develop it more, and then hope he gets drafted in the 2nd round or fulfills a Euro league career....or graduates WITH his degree and becomes a productive adult. The only player currently on the roster that I see with elite athleticism is Godfrey. I could be wrong but he probably wont be drafted either. Making a guy who is a post player a wing just to develop them into the hopes of making an NBA talent probably is the wrong course of action. Kinda like fitting a square peg into a round hole. Isnt gonna fit, and isnt gonna help the team.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [24855]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42672
Joined: 7/31/10
|
My thoughts... a very accurate and realistic evaluation. It is what it is.***
1
Nov 29, 2023, 1:20 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1413]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 661
Joined: 11/4/23
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
Nov 29, 2023, 2:36 AM
[ in reply to Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21 ] |
|
Very well written, and agreed. I can understand where olemike59 is coming from about Baehre, but I think he's stretched his argument a bit too far. I wasn't following the team as closely back then as I do now, but I remember the year he transferred in he was seen by most as a big wildcard. One of those high ceiling but low floor type guys that you just never know how its gonna work out until it actually happens. Inevitably, some fans threw all their chips in on expecting Baehre to achieve that high ceiling, as fans usually tend to do with those types of players. But the truth was that he was largely an unknown.
When the season came, he did have some nice contributions here and there, but he really never lived up to the hype. He never became anything more than a role player at best. And for all the criticisms one could make about positioning, minutes, Brownell's scheming, etc., the reality of the situation was that Baehre was just never that good. And I mean absolutely no disrespect to Baehre in saying that; he was a useful piece at Clemson and he has carved out a sustainable career for himself in Europe. But acting like he was some undiscovered superstar who could have played in the NBA and drastically changed Clemson is just not accurate. To put it simply, if he had been that good, he would have impacted the game significantly regardless of what position he played. Brownell also would have played him more if that had been the case, and if it hadn't been that way to start he would have earned more minutes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
Dear Doug Kingsmore... Many thanks for the well-thought out response.
1
Nov 29, 2023, 11:06 AM
|
|
I think the problem that gets people here is that Baehre DID NOT get the development time on the court with Clemson that he sought. So, for people to "assess" him and his capabilities as a finished product in college is completely backwards.
That's a bit like raving over a painting in the few minutes after a painter breaks out the canvas for the first time.
He needed development, and he didn't get it.
And yes, I disagree with you specifically - In my view it was most certainly Brad Brownell's commitment to the 3-guard lineup that denied both Baehre and O-Max Prosper minutes that year. That's why Prosper transferred - because he didn't see Brownell changing his way of coaching. It's also part of the reason that Baehre went pro as opposed to coming back - he didn't see Bownell changing.
I agree with them - not with the Judge Keller and Brownell sycophants on here.
Baehre's 40-Minute projection for his last year was 10 pts, 8 rebounds, 2 assists, and 1.5 blocks, even as he was playing only 17 minutes per game. He was shooting 44.4%, and that 10 points was projected only on 9 shots.
Those aren't All-American stats, even for 40 minutes. They do speak to the possibility of making more out of a 6'10" mobile talent - the same talent that German Pro franchises have seen.
But without the time on the court, talent goes unserved. And Brownell lied to the kid, short and simple, by not giving him the time.
And for one final point. Note Baehre's stat line in his final game - a loss against Rutgers in the 1st round of the NCAA - another Brownell failure even as the higher ranked team.
He went 2 points on 4 shots, 7 rebounds, 2 assists, 1 steal, 1 block, and 2 TO's. That's in 17 minutes. Seventeen.
Alex Hemenway's stat line included starting: 3 points, 1 for 3 3-pointers, 3 assists, 1 rebound, 1 steal, 1 TO. Hemenway played 20 minutes as the "wing Guard". Guards got a total of 117 minutes that night - a whole game with 3 Guards.
We got out rebounded by 41 to 32 by Rutgers, and gave up 13 2nd chance points as they outscored us by 7 points in the 2nd half on the way to a 60-56 win.
We got out rebounded by 9, and Baehre had 7 boards in 17 minutes.
Nick Honor came off the bench that night and got the same number of minutes as did Hunter Tyson, a starter - 22. By the way: Honor was - 0 for 5 from 3 that night; Tyson was 2 for 3.
Brownell doesn't have a ####### clue. He's a fraud who knows how to make friends, that's all.
Thanks again for the response.
DougKingsmoreCrusade
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Dear Doug Kingsmore... Many thanks for the well-thought out response.
Nov 29, 2023, 11:21 AM
|
|
I’m willing to say that their was potential for Baehre to do better. And maybe even blame coach for some of the untapped potential.
Do we credit coach for developing our successful players? Or do we just credit the players? Do players also share responsibility for their success?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
name 1 guy in the NBA***
Nov 29, 2023, 11:27 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: name 1 guy in the NBA***
1
Nov 29, 2023, 11:36 AM
|
|
Hunter Tyson?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
and so the 1 guy you're going to name to defend Brad Brownell's capability
Nov 29, 2023, 5:09 PM
|
|
to develop players has about 30 minutes total of game time in the Pros?
You have to be kidding me that this is your argument.....
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: and so the 1 guy you're going to name to defend Brad Brownell's capability
1
Nov 29, 2023, 5:50 PM
|
|
You asked for 1 guy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
Well then, I guess all you got is a weak-azz argument***
Nov 29, 2023, 5:56 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: Well then, I guess all you got is a weak-azz argument***
Nov 29, 2023, 6:09 PM
|
|
Can the same argument not be said for half the other ACC teams as well? Or at least the ones not named Duke/UNC. Only like what..60 or so played get drafted every year? Outside of the blueblood programs I would bet most programs average only a player or so drafted every 5 years. Does that give Brownell a pass? No. But the law of averages doesnt lie. Over the course of the Clemson mens program how many players have even been drafted? 15? Maybe 20? Over what..an 80 year span? Like it or not we arent a top tier program. Expecting top tier development and coaching isnt realistic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: Dear Doug Kingsmore... Many thanks for the well-thought out response.
1
Nov 29, 2023, 2:42 PM
[ in reply to Dear Doug Kingsmore... Many thanks for the well-thought out response. ] |
|
What about his development in the European leagues? Doesnt seem to be doing much better there. The Prosper argument I get, Baehre is a lost cause. If he was that talented, albeit underdeveloped he wouldn't have gone to UNC-A, if the talebt was still NBA level he wouldve been picked up by one of the college bluebloods. You're love for Baehre, while well intentioned seems misguided. Additionally, like it or not you have to be healthy to be developed. 2 ACL tears while out of his control didnt help his cause. He may have played about the most he could given his recovery from major surgery. Like it or not, the number have never validated Baehre being more than a serviceable big, much less and elite player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Standout [340]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 3171
Joined: 6/12/20
|
I think you miss the point of the argument.....
Nov 29, 2023, 5:21 PM
|
|
for Baehre NOT to deserve better minutes on the 2020/21 Clemson team,
he only has to be better than Nick Honor and Alex Hemenway - he doesn't have to be better than every forward who ever played in the NBA.
LOFL - the argument has always been that Brownell wasted his development in college, because he played a 3-guard lineup.
If the stance that people are taking to defend Brownell is that Baehre was too hurt to get more minutes in college, that has never been publicly stated by Clemson, nor corroborated by Baehre himself.
To get more minutes in 2020/21, it's a Baehre versus dumbazz midget conversation that apparently Brownell was having in his head. The fact that Baehre had enough talent to get to the German leagues basically invalidates the argument in support of Brownell because Nick Honor ain't making no German League.
2011Tiger
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: I think you miss the point of the argument.....
1
Nov 29, 2023, 5:52 PM
|
|
He didn’t play defense and left with a year of eligibility. Go drink some more!
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-Conference [441]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 370
Joined: 8/25/18
|
Re: I think you miss the point of the argument.....
Nov 29, 2023, 6:03 PM
[ in reply to I think you miss the point of the argument..... ] |
|
I think you may be missing the point also. Until yesterday Baehre was a forgotten player. Out of all the talent scouts across college and professional ball, you are the only one still promoting his abilities. Are you entitled to your opinion? Absolutely! Lord knows I share mine on this site all the time. That doesnt make you correct. Is Brownell a flawed coach? Absolutely! That doesnt mean either you or myself are 100% correct in our arguments. There is not a coach employed by any school or pro team who will play a player if he thinks it will impact their job security. In todays sport environment winning now keeps you employed. If not playing Baehre kept Brownell employed (which is a fringe argument at best) then so be it. Players from smaller conferences with actual pro talent are identified and transfer accordingly. Look at Seth Curry. Played at Liberty (took Clemson to the wire that season as well, if Im not mistaken David Potter was the hero of the game for us). He was immediately identified as a player who was overlooked. What happened? He transferred to Duke and has had a long and successful NBA career. Baehre was never regarded as that level of talent. Did Brownell stunt his growth? Yeah. Probably. We're we worse off for it? Maybe, but the contributions he wouodve given us weren't gonna make or break our season. As for Prosper...yeah, he screwed up...But Baehre, the numbers or evidence that he was anything more than serviceable just dont back up your claims. Not at UNCA, not at Clemson, and not in Germany.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2852]
TigerPulse: 65%
Posts: 2579
Joined: 6/9/00
|
You are nuts and have lost your mind
1
Nov 29, 2023, 6:01 PM
|
|
You must be the founder/CEO of the Lunatic Fringe. I will not be clicking your insane ramblings again. I just scanned your last entry. Too long, too dull, too out of touch. If you do not play defense or do not want to play defense, you will not play for Brad Brownell. Period.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4102]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 5227
Joined: 10/23/10
|
Are these the rants of a madman ?
Nov 29, 2023, 6:01 PM
|
|
Bottom line, the Lads did good (well) last night. Let us rejoice and gorge on Chicken Wings and drink copious amounts of beer in celebration.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
1
Mar 29, 2024, 3:45 PM
|
|
OleMike t-mailed me today and wanted to say "hi" to everyone. He said "don't worry, be happy." He seems to have had some sort of epiphany and misses his time at BAE.
As always, he's happy that Clemson has Brownell and unfortunately missed the game last night.
Thanks Olemike! We miss you too.
olemike59
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13579]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8958
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
1
Mar 29, 2024, 4:55 PM
|
|
He had a rough night. Clemson won and his Heels lost...
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1406]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1152
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 21
Mar 29, 2024, 6:56 PM
|
|
Yeah, Hubert really coached poorly down the stretch. Playing the slow transfer over his stellar guards. RJ Davis played awful and apparently Mondo just decided to let everybody go through him in the end.
Should’ve Popson’d those guys.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 61
| visibility 3,351
|
|
|
50
