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Standout [340]
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Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 17, 2023, 11:31 AM
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Opponent: Davidson. November 12th.
Yesterday, we presented some detail (11 different examples) about the substitution patterns for the Clemson and Davidson game. What was evident was that there were several incidents where players were pulled from the game by Clemson Coaches immediately after committing an error of some sort.
Notably, some incidents showed as Immediate by the clock time itself – the play created a dead ball and the player was replaced before play resumed. Time stamps showed that no clock usage occurred in between.
Other replacements showed on our list with a time gap between error and replacement; but understand that the in-game replacement often can and does occur well after a replacement player reports to the scorer’s table and begins waiting for the next dead ball. In other words, we shouldn’t take the replacement time as the immediate time the new player was tabbed by the Coaches. Indeed, the time the replacement sits at the scorer’s table only makes it look like there was delay in the player being pulled from the game. “Only makes it look like...”
This “quick hook” occurred for almost all the players – C Hunter, C Wiggins, R Godfrey, etc. etc. It did not happen to PJ Hall though, and I guess we’re all adult enough to accept why. PJ Hall is the team’s unequivocal centerpiece, and no one’s inordinately yanking Hall from a game for virtually any reason short of incurring a Technical Foul.
Notably however there was one other player whose substitution pattern deviated from the “quick hook” variety, and that player seems far from a “centerpiece”. Here’s the sequence in question:
13:38 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway substitutes in.
13:29 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway turnover, bad pass.
13:26 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway commits shooting foul.
13:26 (1H) – Dead Ball. (DAV) converts 2 FT’s.
13:07 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway misses 3-point FG.
11:58 (1H) – Dead Ball. Media timeout.
10:40 (1H) – Dead Ball. (CLE) Offensive foul.
10:26 (1H) – Dead Ball. (CLE) Foul drawn.
10:16 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway misses 3-point FG.
10:14 (1H) – Dead Ball. (DAV) Team rebound.
10:14 (1H) – (CLE) A Hemenway substituted out.
Player comes in, commits turnover, commits foul, misses shot, and 4 Dead Balls later, player is substituted out. THIS is not at all in line with the pattern shown for the remainder of the team in yesterday’s comment. Not at all.
And finally, I would be remiss if I did not explicitly note the end game sequence for Clemson. Why? Well, for the last minute and a half of game time, Clemson was fighting to hold onto a late game lead (5 points at 1:37). One would expect then that the team on the floor was being rotated in/out to make sure that the better defensive players could get in to assist the effort.
Indeed, there were 4 substitutions made over the final 1:37 of game time, ostensibly to inject better defensive players.
The final in-game substitutions came at 0:21(2H) as Hall was clutch with 2 FT’s to extend the lead back to 3 (68-65). Both Joe Girard and PJ Hall were taken out after this FT sequence as Davidson prepared for one more trip on Offense. R Godfrey and D Hunter were the substitutes in. Note that Hall only had 2 fouls at this point in total, so this substitution out doesn’t appear to be about protecting him from possible disqualification in the event of an Overtime.
So, here’s the 5 players (plus the time that they were last substituted in) that were on the floor to play Defense for the last 21 seconds with Clemson up by 3.
R Godfrey (0:21), D Hunter (0:21), I Schieffelin (0:24), A Hemenway (3:07), C Hunter (7:41).
I’ll let you decide if that’s your best 5 on Defense as well....
Welcome to Stark Raving Brad....
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 17, 2023, 11:38 AM
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TU for the extensive research. Reply back with your point? I’m kind of confused as to what you are conveying as far as subs. Not playing the best 5 consistently?? TIA
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Standout [340]
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yesterday's list showed guys getting subbed off as soon as they made a single
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Nov 17, 2023, 2:13 PM
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mistake.
Today's listing shows the one guy who didn't suffer that fate.
I'm wondering why he got special treatment.
I'm also not in favor of subbing guys off as soon as a mistake is made. It's terrible for confidence and we have several young players with little experience who are key to our success. You have to let guys get into rhythm regardless the immediate results.
basically, I'd throw out Brownell's entire Substitution pattern. It's too reactionary, and a bit oppressive.
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Oculus Spirit [77062]
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I played and still follow the game intensely.
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Nov 18, 2023, 3:03 PM
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I have to agree 100%. The absolute worst way to handle a TO is to take a player out. That's like a golfer hitting a bad shot and their caddy quitting the tour.
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Standout [340]
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110%er [8540]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 17, 2023, 11:42 AM
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Is there a point to that novel? Every coach has his or her idea on substituting and that will never change. Go back decades and remember the Carolina method when Dean would sub out the entire 5 players and it was not because they were doing well.
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Standout [340]
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As a kid I sat on the floor of Carmichael Auditorium
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Nov 17, 2023, 2:23 PM
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across from the Carolina bench and their entrance tunnel. And yes, Dean did sometimes sub in an entire 5 - the "Blue Team" - and often to shake up a starting 5 that was underperforming.
But this was never done right after the first mistake, or even as a standard subbing pattern.
The "Blue Team" was supposed to be a "shock" to the system of the Starters, not something that happened routinely.
You need to go back to yesterday's list and see the immediate and reactionary subbing pattern that was there - I'm sorry, but it's just bad coaching.
Then you need to re-read this one and tell me why this clown got treated differently.
And then you need to tell me why someone who is known as a 3-pointer shooter ONLY, somehow ended up being intentionally left in during the end game as we tried to defend a final offensive possession of Davidson.
What's clear is that the boy from Indiana got a little favoritism the other day. Could it be that that was because the Coach is from Indiana?
Valley Boy
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Standout [340]
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was reminded that I missed the most important point about Dean Smith
Nov 17, 2023, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17 ] |
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Smith's basic subbing pattern for starters was entirely inverse to what Brownell has been doing. In fact, Smith had an agreement with his starters that if they subbed themselves out when they needed a blow, they could actually put themselves back in the game when they were ready.
In the day, the Carolina players gave a fist sign to the bench when they were ready to come out. Then after a couple of minutes they could report back to Smith at the end of the bench to go back in the game, and he would put them in.
Imagine Brad Brownell having that type of confidence in his players, or providing that type of positive reinforcement!
Valley Boy
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Orange Blooded [4732]
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Re: was reminded that I missed the most important point about Dean Smith
Nov 19, 2023, 11:10 AM
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BB would NEVER give up that kinda control......never!
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CU Guru [1999]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 17, 2023, 11:53 AM
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Most of the time things are not as complicated as they appear, outside of Hall and C. Hunter, I see a team full of players than can contribute at any given time. That has not always been the case in Clemson basketball, so it is a bit of a luxury to have that many bench pieces capable of scoring different ways.
So if you're one of those players, especially this early in the season, and you make a few in game errors you can expect to be subbed out quickly as there is a next man up ready for their chance to show that they can do it better.
Is it 100% fair, no, but its competition. I am sure as the year progresses, our main minutes getters will be decided, and by ACC play we'll have our main 6-7 guys prioritized.
I'd also note that someone will almost assuredly transfer off this team, maybe even in season, and there will be cries on T-Net about it, but that is the way of college basketball, only so many minutes to hand out.
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Standout [340]
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subbing players out because they made 1 mistake, or even 2, is Bush League
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Nov 17, 2023, 2:31 PM
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early in the season or late.
It shows a Head Coach who can't control his emotional reactions, and generally has no substitution pattern in mind.
It also shows that Brownell hasn't developed any understanding of what player pairings and groupings function well together. If he did, they would be coming off 2 or 3 at a time, not just by onesies.
aclemfan48®
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CU Guru [1999]
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Re: subbing players out because they made 1 mistake, or even 2, is Bush League
Nov 17, 2023, 9:53 PM
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There's no way to sub people in and out consistently without it conveniently lining up with a "mistake" several times...
Why aren't you coaching college ball? I do enjoy reading your daily ramblings though, they're well written for the most part.
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Standout [340]
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If you're not going to respond to the post Honestly, then don't respond.
Nov 18, 2023, 10:18 AM
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"There's no way to sub people in and out consistently without it conveniently lining up with a mistake".
The Data unequivocally shows that this isn't the problem. Unequivocal data....
aclemfan48®
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110%er [8034]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 17, 2023, 12:43 PM
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Hey look, another c/p with no citation. BTW, who is we as in the "we presented" ?
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Standout [340]
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did you say something or was that just a fart?***
Nov 17, 2023, 2:32 PM
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CU Guru [1025]
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Re: did you say something or was that just a fart?***
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Nov 17, 2023, 11:07 PM
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Eloquent.
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Standout [340]
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no reason to hold to civility with a Bonafide Liar***
Nov 17, 2023, 11:48 PM
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110%er [8034]
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Legend [16160]
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Yeah, this is healthy***
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Nov 18, 2023, 12:10 AM
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Standout [340]
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There's nothing healthy about the Clemson Basketball Program now at all
Nov 18, 2023, 10:06 AM
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the level of Denial in the Program gained popular momentum in 2014 after Brownell personally lost the NCAA bid for us, and has drifted into Abject Fealty ever since. You all are still making the same excuses 10 years later....
If South Carolina Football fans keep saying "Wait until next year", then Clemson Basketball fans keep saying, "One more year to make the NCAAT; one more year; one more year...."
It is truly sicko....
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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Re: There's nothing healthy about the Clemson Basketball Program now at all
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Nov 18, 2023, 11:04 AM
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You bring up some interesting "Con" points as to the state of basketball under Coach Brownell.
Coach thinks that even if they weren't impressive overall in the Davidson game, getting the win was big if you look at the results froma similar contest vs Loyola last season. See this interview from this week at the 11:00 mark:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lHmE8-z64aU
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Standout [340]
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What you have posted is Brad in his element - he clearly has the ability
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Nov 18, 2023, 2:59 PM
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to convince Eskimos to buy Ice. Good for him.
I work in Companies that are doing poorly, and I see this ALL the time - abject denial of what is going wrong in a company. And thus there are Losses galore, layoffs, lost customers, defections of good employees to the competition, poor morale and thus poor safety, etc. etc.
I will tell you that virtually ALL poorly operating companies are Political problems not operating problems. And so there's always someone standing there saying "All is OK - I have this." No, what he has is Political Control. Good for him.
What I have posted is 4 comments that approach not "whether we won or not, or by as much as we wanted to", but instead whether or not Coaching is directly leading to good results.
Thus, I have questioned the number of 3-pointers that were hoisted ad nauseam, as well as the definitive Substitution pattern as shown by the game clock.
I've given facts; deny all you want, BS all you want, attack me all you want, snark all you want.
In the end, the facts speak for themselves to anyone who has the courage to listen
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Legend [16160]
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Oculus Spirit [77062]
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Lol.
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Nov 18, 2023, 3:05 PM
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Haven't you heard he had no Scok's??????
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Standout [340]
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You're going to Ban me for posting straight cut-outs from the Game Log?
Nov 18, 2023, 3:07 PM
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Dearest God, What have you let happen to the Clemson and America I grew up in?
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Legend [16930]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 18, 2023, 11:24 AM
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I think the biggest takeaway, for me, is that this post is fundamentally about actual basketball - performance, execution, strategy, game plan, adjustments, etc…. And the Brownell Bros have no response to any of the points actually made.
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Athletic Dir [892]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
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Nov 18, 2023, 8:17 PM
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Whether people like it or I think your post brings up valid questions.
I've long thought Brownell's personnel management was at times odd. I've chalked it up the last few years because his teams have been so deep. Having a deep team is a plus but it can also be a negative with keeping players or team in sync/rhythm or happy.
I definitely found it odd that Hemenway was in at the end of the game against Davidson and recieved as many minutes as he did as opposed to Jack Clark (did he even play the 2nd half?... this is a guy that can easily start and play 20+ minutes a game).
It's still early I hope it all gets ironed out into a smooth, oiled, well working machine by the time ACC play starts
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Standout [340]
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neither Wiggins nor Clark played in the 2nd half
Nov 18, 2023, 8:51 PM
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both got 3-4 straight minutes in the 1st half, then sat on the bench the rest of the game.
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CU Guru [1999]
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Re: neither Wiggins nor Clark played in the 2nd half
Nov 19, 2023, 10:15 AM
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You mean the first half where we were down 19-2 at one point?
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Orange Blooded [4732]
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Re: Stark Raving Brad - November 17
Nov 19, 2023, 11:15 AM
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I haven't done any research on this point but just my observations indicate that there is another major problem with the substitutions. Have you ever noticed that when one of our players gets on a hot shooting streak, he gets pulled immediately. I often wondered why that was happening. If a guy gets hot let him play!
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CU Guru [1404]
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Im good with calling a spade a spade.
Nov 19, 2023, 4:05 PM
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But seriously???You’re ticked because Hemenway was playing solid “D” at the end of the Davidson game? Matched up on their best shooter and kept him from scoring.
Tell me what bad things happened today.
Go Tigers!
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Replies: 30
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