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CU Medallion [65530]
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I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:18 AM
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in the same mindset about Brad Brownell that we were back in 2008 about Tommy Bowden. Which is: Yeah, we could fire him, but who would we get that would do any better?
Now, I will be the first to admit that we caught lightning in a bottle in a big way with William Christopher Swinney as our Football Coach. But, if we never take a chance to get better, we will never know if there is even a pale imitation out there that could advance our basketball program into at least regular NCAA tournament appearances.
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Heisman Winner [135993]
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Would it work to bring in a
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:25 AM
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young innovative assistant head coach for in game decisions and make BB more of a basketball CEO running all the things he is good at or would that make things worse?
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Orange Blooded [4596]
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Re: Would it work to bring in a
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:17 AM
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So in this model, what would CBB be doing: Recruiting? Player development? Game planning? Running practices? Calling timeouts at the right moment? Counting the number of players on the court so we don't try to play with 6?
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110%er [6982]
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So we need a CEO to coach 12 players?
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:18 AM
[ in reply to Would it work to bring in a ] |
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College basketball coach is the best gig in the world. You coach 12 players, you have to sign three or four per year, and if you're Brad your season is only November to mid-March, And get paid millions to do this
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CU Guru [1464]
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No, you either back him or fire him.
Mar 12, 2023, 8:37 PM
[ in reply to Would it work to bring in a ] |
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Can't demote someone who's at the top without creating lockerroom division.
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110%er [8003]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:34 AM
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It always seems weird when folks overreach by comparing two dissimilar situations trying to justify their desires. Here is a thought, perhaps simply state you believe CBB has taken us as far as he can so you believe the program would be better served with new leadership.
There is no need to make up things like CBB is terrible or try to compare a historically top 20 program with a historical bottom tier program.
It’s reasonable to believe a change is required so why make silly comparisons to justify it?
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:42 AM
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He’s not comparing programs but as usual you can’t read.
He’s making a comparison how the fan base feels about a current coach to a former coach.
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110%er [8003]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:06 AM
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He’s not comparing programs but as usual you can’t read.
He’s making a comparison how the fan base feels about a current coach to a former coach.
Actually he did compare. I was at WF for CTBs last game. It was clear he had lost the fire needed and most fans understood a change was needed. CBB has not lost the fire needed but after 13 years it appears he has a ceiling in terms of how far he can take the program. Personally I have no problem keeping CBB or making a change as long as we realize a change is unlikely to yield the results many want unless other changes are included in the makeover.
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All-TigerNet [10400]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 2:37 PM
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He’s comparing the fan base not the coaches or the sport.
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CU Guru [1487]
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I was there with you Cobb, and if we don't hear our name today
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Mar 12, 2023, 2:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are ] |
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It will be very similar as that night in Winston-Salem.
The writing is already on the wall. Unless we get in, myself and the overwhelmingly vast majority of the fanbase will we want a change. And please don't try to say not making the tournament is a dissimilar situation. When a coach has reached his peak, it becomes obvious.
The future of Brad will depend on if we hear our name today.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: I was there with you Cobb, and if we don't hear our name today
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:23 PM
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Yeah, pull your monetary support, I’m sure that will work! LOL!
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All-In [31315]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are ] |
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I would not classify us a bottom tier program would you? Mid tier but bottom tier means we might want to consider boarding up LJ and use the land for something else.
Tommy Bowden did not inherit a good program. Those days ended around 1991. He was instrumental in getting DV renovated and probably a few more things to attract recruits which helped benefit Dabo. Tommy was not a great coach but did do some good things off the field to help in what we are today.
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Orange Blooded [2347]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 12:46 PM
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How much did TB really have to do with the DV improvements? I would guess the AD really was the driving force, just like he was at GT.
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CU Guru [1487]
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No sir. That was one of Bowden's pre-employment stipulation.
Mar 12, 2023, 2:49 PM
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We were waaaaay behind in facilities and other things, and if nothing else Bowden was the impetus for moving into the current times. It was a huge drive spurned on by Bowden's observation that we needed to adapt in order to recruit.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are ] |
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Are you under the delusion that Clemson football was “historically” a top 20 program prior to Dabo Swinney? In 107 years of football prior to his tenure, we finished ranked in the top 20 a whopping 19 times. 18% of the time. In the preceding 19 years before he took over the team had finished in the top 20 twice (11%) so he inherited a program performing below its already modest historical average. We have finished the season ranked on top 20 eleven straight years. Our longest such previous streak, in 107 years, was six. It’s weird when folks overreach by completely making something up to justify their desires. Here is a thought, how about next time simply state that you know absolutely nothing about a topic but would love to regurgitate an opinion on the topic anyway.
- we were actually ranked at end of season 3 times from 99-08 (Hatfield through Bowden) so closer to but still below our historical average. He did not take over a “historically top 20” program nor a program on the rise.
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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CU Guru [1722]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 12:05 PM
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1980-1999 , 19 years, football finished in top 20 twice?
Did you mean 9 years?
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Legend [16921]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 1:29 PM
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I was referencing the 19 years prior to Dabo being named full time head coach. The Hatfield through Bowden era , 99-08, which I actually miscounted and it was 3 times. Only Ford/Pell had us ranked a majority of the time. So to say we’re “historically top 20” is incorrect in the extreme.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Yup. Before Dabo
Mar 12, 2023, 2:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are ] |
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we were the 26th in historical wins.
During Dabo's we are 2nd in the nation in wins, behind only Alabama.
Adding in Dabo's tenure to all-time, his record has moved us from 26th to 14th all-time.
We were not a top 20 all-time program prior to Dabo, and now he has us as 2nd during his tenure.
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Varsity [217]
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CU Guru [1487]
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CU Guru [1404]
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Contract is structured to
Mar 12, 2023, 2:52 PM
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Reward a NIT bid with $$ incentives. This starts with the AD and what is acceptable. If retained, this incentive needs to be removed. If it is not, all the whiners need to voice their disgust to the right people. I’m sure you all matter.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Contract is structured to
Mar 12, 2023, 3:56 PM
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He gets $100k for the NCAAT, or $15k for the NIT.
I don’t think that is remotely the problem with his contract…
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CU Guru [1404]
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Re: Contract is structured to
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:21 PM
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Any monetary bonus is acceptance.
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CU Guru [1215]
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110%er [5512]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 7:41 PM
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There is logic. You are just ignorant as to what that logic is.
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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There is logic, but it's poor logic!***
Mar 12, 2023, 8:45 PM
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CU Guru [1215]
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Orange Blooded [4036]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:35 AM
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After 13 years, we know exactly what Brad is and what he is not.
The main defender points to Brad simply doing better than the low expectations of the writers. Yet he has never won anything.
I say, put oxygen back in the room and put hope back in our hearts.
Maybe the new coach won’t do well, but maybe he will. I would rather take that chance - who cares if we drop from an average of 7th to 8th? I would rather have hope that we would jump up.
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110%er [8003]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:56 AM
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After 13 years, we know exactly what Brad is and what he is not.
The main defender points to Brad simply doing better than the low expectations of the writers. Yet he has never won anything.
I say, put oxygen back in the room and put hope back in our hearts.
Maybe the new coach won’t do well, but maybe he will. I would rather take that chance - who cares if we drop from an average of 7th to 8th? I would rather have hope that we would jump up.
It’s weird that you could not simply say you feel it’s time for a change without making false accusations about those who feel differently than yourself.
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CU Guru [1487]
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Lol. What "false accusations"?***
Mar 12, 2023, 2:58 PM
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110%er [8538]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 8:51 AM
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You do not fire a coach whose team set a record for number of ACC wins that will likely never be beaten. Great season to go from the 11th ranked team pre-season.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:04 AM
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Brownell will and has shown he will have some great years in comparing them to the overall history of the program. But is that all we expect? I guess that’s for the big boosters and Neff to decide.
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110%er [5512]
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Legend [16961]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 10:39 AM
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Valley coot is reaching.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
Mar 12, 2023, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are ] |
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You have to do what you think is right for the program long term. Yes, it would seem like an odd time to let him go after one of his better seasons but you can also argue it was a bad time to hang on to him after some of his bad seasons. Neff will have to evaluate the future and not the past and come to the decision he believes is best for Clemson moving forward.
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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All-In [44054]
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I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better.
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:01 AM
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Let’s commit to stop being near the bottom of the ACC in financial support for men’s basketball. Let’s stop being outspent by millions of dollars each year by most other schools in the ACC, and many others in the southeast as well.
Let’s commit to showing up regularly to support the team and give us a more consistent home court advantage, rather than having among the lowest attendance in the ACC.
Let’s travel better to tournaments so that we don’t have fewer fans than much smaller schools (e.g., Loyola Chicago in Atlanta in 2022, St. Bonaventure in Charleston in 2021).
Let’s stop being so negative about the basketball program when we have success, such as this year when we’ve set records for consecutive ACC wins and ACC wins in a season yet our fans complain about how horrible we are.
Let’s take a chance on being a basketball school and not merely a football school, setting aside our fear that doing so will hurt football or compromise our identity as a football school. I know that’s a lot to ask, but if we want to take a chance at getting better, let’s start there.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better.
Mar 12, 2023, 9:12 AM
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JK this is a conversation you would need to have with the big money and Neff. I’m sure if expectations were higher many of the issues you mentioned would go away.
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All-In [44054]
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Neff gets it.
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:59 AM
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I just wish more of our fans got it.
Many of our fans expect champagne on a beer budget.
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Orange Blooded [4747]
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Re: Neff gets it.
Mar 12, 2023, 8:36 PM
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No, we expect Clemson to be competitive and make the NCAAT consistently. Brownell has gotten there three times in 12 years (leaving out 2020 when it was cancelled). Compare that to his predecessor who got there three times in seven years while cleaning up the mess Shyatt left. It's clear that Clemson can do well in basketball with the right coach.
A better analogy is we expect a cold IPA but we keep getting warm Miller Lite.
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All-American [594]
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All-In [44054]
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Assistant salaries, staff budget, and recruiting budget.
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Mar 12, 2023, 9:57 AM
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Those are the biggest needs.
Another way to look at it: what are other schools spending those additional millions on each year? We probably need to be doing similarly. Asking our coaches to not only continue to overcome that (as they have been), but to overcome that even more, is unfair.
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CU Guru [1687]
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Re: Assistant salaries, staff budget, and recruiting budget.
Mar 12, 2023, 10:19 AM
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And real facility upgrades focused on fan and player experience. First helps with attendance and second with recruiting.
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CU Medallion [65530]
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Did we not renovate Littlejohn just a few short years ago?
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:32 AM
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Show us some EXACT plans for what you, or others have in mind for these nebulous "facility upgrades" that we are so far behind the opposition in. Show us where our assistant coaches are coming up short. Give us something CONCRETE to focus Administration efforts on. Otherwise, it is just "Pie in the Sky" speculation.
Message was edited by: 76er®
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All-TigerNet [11487]
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Re: Assistant salaries, staff budget, and recruiting budget.
Mar 12, 2023, 1:14 PM
[ in reply to Assistant salaries, staff budget, and recruiting budget. ] |
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Those are the biggest needs.
Another way to look at it: what are other schools spending those additional millions on each year? We probably need to be doing similarly. Asking our coaches to not only continue to overcome that (as they have been), but to overcome that even more, is unfair.
they just did that. Billy Donlon is one of the highest paid assistants in the ACC. I bet you can't even give me the teams assistants salarys in the ACC this past season? You can't because you don't have it.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better.
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Mar 12, 2023, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better. ] |
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If we were to really do all of those things then let's finish the job by upgrading the head coach as well. Brad has been good for Clemson basketball overall but a lot of folks including myself believe he has taken us as far as he can. There will need to be a catalyst for the changes you recommend and that catalyst will most likely have to come from a coach that we really want to invest in.
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CU Medallion [58430]
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You're right about some of that, but wrong about some too.
Mar 12, 2023, 11:12 AM
[ in reply to I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better. ] |
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I agree 100% with the following:
Let’s commit to stop being near the bottom of the ACC in financial support for men’s basketball. Let’s stop being outspent by millions of dollars each year by most other schools in the ACC, and many others in the southeast as well.
Let’s take a chance on being a basketball school and not merely a football school, setting aside our fear that doing so will hurt football or compromise our identity as a football school. I know that’s a lot to ask, but if we want to take a chance at getting better, let’s start there.
If we very openly and aggressively correct those errors, the rest will naturally take care of itself. If Graham Neff announces tomorrow "We are frustrated with our basketball history, and are tired of being a non-factor in basketball, and we are setting about correcting that today. We appreciate Brad Brownell's commmitment over the last 13 years, and the job he has done, but we are making a new commitment to our basketball program for the future, which includes a new coach, a new finacial commitment, giving the program all of the tools it needs to be successful on a level unfamiliar to Clemson basketball fans." that would be a start which would get the ball rolling in the right direction and would yield results fairly quickly, including improvement in the following:
Let’s commit to showing up regularly to support the team and give us a more consistent home court advantage, rather than having among the lowest attendance in the ACC.
Let’s travel better to tournaments so that we don’t have fewer fans than much smaller schools (e.g., Loyola Chicago in Atlanta in 2022, St. Bonaventure in Charleston in 2021).
Let’s stop being so negative about the basketball program when we have success, such as this year when we’ve set records for consecutive ACC wins and ACC wins in a season yet our fans complain about how horrible we are.
Anything less is likely more of the same.
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CU Guru [1143]
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Re: I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better.
Mar 13, 2023, 2:19 PM
[ in reply to I’d rather see us take a chance on supporting the program better. ] |
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I'm sure someone more intelligent than me, and/or better familiar with the nuances of NCAAM...but it would be interesting to see a chart of financial commitment in relation to tournament appearances.
I don't disagree with you Judge Keller® that more funding can help us improve, but I'm curious about some of these smaller/mid-major schools and their budgets. Are there teams that more frequently make the Tournament then us with a significant less amount of program funding? Or is it the nature of the selection/automatic-bid system that gets these smaller schools in more often?
I know NIL probably throws all that historic data out of whack, but is the quickest fix to keep up in the 'arms race'? I'm basing my question and assumption that fan attendance and attitudes will improve with more wins, better performances, more consistency, etc.
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Scout Team [190]
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Re: I get the feeling that Clemson basketball fans right now are
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Mar 12, 2023, 10:43 AM
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Brownell had a great year. If we do not make the tournament and NC Stare does the whole system is broken
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Legend [19950]
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Brownell had an extremely easy OOC schedule
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Mar 12, 2023, 1:04 PM
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and still managed to lose 2 of those games to terrible teams, and also lucked out by only having to play the good ACC teams once. NC State was the only ACC team with a winning conference record that we played twice.
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CU Guru [1487]
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I'm not feeling that.
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Mar 12, 2023, 2:41 PM
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If we don't make it and Brad is let go because of it, I have 100% confidence we can do better at reaching our potential.
The whole line - that we don't pay enough, or have good enough facilities, or hungry fans - to attract a top notch candidate.. that's horsepooh.
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CU Guru [1404]
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Don’t think any one will use Arkansas to
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Mar 12, 2023, 7:34 PM
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Collect a ransom this time. We were pretty dumb back then. I don’t see a contract extension that rewards a NIT bid. Like the one we have now.
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Legend [19697]
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3 choices
Mar 12, 2023, 8:34 PM
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Keep Brad another year, the most likely
Fire Brad and...
get an up and comer like Kelsey or Richey, which has been our go to
or
chase a big name, even one with baggage like Greg Marshall
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Legend [16058]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 24596
Joined: 5/14/02
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Now is time to cut ties. We deserve better.***
Mar 12, 2023, 8:47 PM
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Replies: 53
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