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All-In [27193]
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I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
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Mar 26, 2024, 10:28 AM
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appears that the basketball program lost just over $6.6 million on a $8.8 million dollar budget last year (2023). The basketball program's net position decreased by that amount from 2022 to 2023.
Revenues were just over $2.2 Million, with the difference coming from revenues generated by the football program.
These are audited financials, in case anyone wants to argue against the facts.
https://media.clemson.edu/finance/controller/annualreports/supplementalschedules_2023.pdf
In contrast, Dook roundball reported 2022 revenues of $33.4M. That's over 15x what Clemson roundball generates. It stands to reason they'd spend more $$ on their roundball program, given those numbers.
How in the world can someone claim we are "under funding" the roundball program when in fact, it's the revenue disparity that's causing the imbalance in spending? This disparity is due to TV revenues, merchandising, ticket sales, etc. It's not a lack of will from the AD, it's just the harsh reality of economics.
Numbers don't lie. I think Neff and the BOT realize that long term, our success depends upon getting out of the ACC and into another conference where football and basketball can get on better financial footing and succeed. The numbers paint a pretty depressing picture, by the way. The football program (in sum total) saw its net position decline by over $20M......I think this has a lot to do with the BOT taking legal action once they had time to digest the financials.
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All-In [32656]
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Uhhhhh . . . . that's eye-opening. What is the "net" bottom line on other
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Mar 26, 2024, 10:30 AM
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programs ?
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Uhhhhh . . . . that's eye-opening. What is the "net" bottom line on other
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Mar 26, 2024, 10:32 AM
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Indeed it is. Just follow the link to the supplementary schedules, starting on Pg. 14 and you can go program by program to see what they spent, what they generated, and what the shortfall is (the ending net position in 2023). All of JK's bullcrap motivated me to dig into the numbers and what I found clearly indicates that overall, there is no bias against roundball whatsoever. This is a revenue problem.
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All-In [32656]
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Wellll - jk's right - we don't allow our basketyball program to charge
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:05 AM
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$700 per seat to watch us lose to the Morehead State's of the world - so we would only have a $3milly shortfall . . . .
We are terrible - we are the problem.
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CU Medallion [65528]
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I want an explanation of how Duke basketball supposedly generated over $34 Mill
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Mar 26, 2024, 10:38 AM
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in revenue. Cameron Indoor only seats 314 more people than the stated capacity of Littlejohn after the recent remodel at Clemson. 9314 vs 9000. Is Duke basketball getting some huge TV dollars that they are not sharing with other conference members, somehow? What is the everloving deal here?
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All-In [27193]
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Re: I want an explanation of how Duke basketball supposedly generated over $34 Mill
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Mar 26, 2024, 10:40 AM
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That I don't know. Since they're private, it's hard to dig into their numbers. But one thing is for sure, what I have found, indicates they are spending about $1.3M per year per player. That's incredible.
But there are credible sources reporting that they are considering a move to the Big XII.
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CU Medallion [65528]
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For them, and us, it's all about the exit fees, penalties, and buyouts to get
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:26 AM
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OUT of the ACC. Let's hope as more and more schools sue the ACC, the conference and ESPN just finally throw up their hands like the NCAA did over NIL, and say "DO WHAT YOU WANT TO DO!"
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Legend [16186]
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Re: I want an explanation of how Duke basketball supposedly generated over $34 Mill
Mar 26, 2024, 8:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: I want an explanation of how Duke basketball supposedly generated over $34 Mill ] |
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I like the idea of Duke moving to the Big 12.
If the Ivy League would take Duke, the entire school and student body would soil themselves over such a move. Imagine the honor of being thought of in the same light as Brown.
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110%er [8588]
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It's all about how you allocate the revenue
Mar 26, 2024, 11:34 AM
[ in reply to I want an explanation of how Duke basketball supposedly generated over $34 Mill ] |
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When someone buys a duke t-shirt from dekes sporting goods do you attribute the royalties to football, basketball, lacrosse...it's really kinda pointless to compare individual programs across schools because they all have different accounting practices.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: It's all about how you allocate the revenue
Mar 26, 2024, 4:13 PM
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The private ones do, yes.
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110%er [8538]
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Re: I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:14 AM
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Our only issue is not a $ issue but a ticket buying one. Many of our games are late starts and because Clemson is in more or less a remote location (not in a city), people simply will not buy tickets for those games. Take my 9th grade grandson who lives 2 1/2 hours away for example, there is no way they can go to a midweek game and really only get to Saturday games that are in the afternoon. Sports at Clemson, other than football, always lose money so this is nothing new and the money received for the football program and the ACC cover the bills.
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All-In [48351]
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Re: I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:37 AM
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Not a financial person by any means but I just don't think ticket sales for any of our sports make much of an impact. I'd guess it's more brand merchandise and eyeballs.
That's why a lot of the expansion talk says Clemson isn't worth what a unc or fsu would be.
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110%er [8054]
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Re: I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:33 AM
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Does this take into account TV revenue? I doubt it. You have to look at the whole picture. Also, what about basketball only supporters? I am sure there are many who give big bucks to IPTAY because of their love of Clemson basketball. Your representation, while good intended, does not capture the full picture (revenue).
After reviewing the linked audit, using your argument, we actually lost more money on football than basketball.
Message was edited by: baker5801®
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All-In [48351]
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Re: I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
Mar 26, 2024, 11:38 AM
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Maybe more money, not more percentage.
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All-In [27193]
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110%er [8588]
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Amateur financial analysis is the cornerstone of internet message boards
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:39 AM
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If we don't watch out we're gonna turn into twitter.
Bottom line none of the reported financial statements have the only KPI that matters; how much are they spending in NIL? The schools are technically not allowed to give NIL money directly to players so it's not reported as expense on an income statement.
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Athletic Dir [869]
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There is no way that ticket sales, concessions and sponsorship sales attributed
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Mar 26, 2024, 11:44 AM
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to Littlejohn and Clemson basketball are only $2.2m a season.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: There is no way that ticket sales, concessions and sponsorship sales attributed
Mar 26, 2024, 4:10 PM
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Well, you can choose not to believe it, or you can believe the audited financials. Doesn't matter to me, those are the numbers.
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All-In [44054]
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It clearly does matter to you.
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Mar 26, 2024, 8:42 PM
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If it didn’t, you wouldn’t have wasted so much time trying to invalidate the correct numbers on the U.S. Department of Education site.
Our men’s basketball program doesn’t lose money, and we could some more if we wanted to.
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Legend [16921]
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THEY ARENT CORRECT AND YOU KNOW IT.
Mar 26, 2024, 9:55 PM
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Nfm
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Legend [16921]
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110%er [8588]
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Had 5 minutes at lunch to look at the schedules and had to give you a TD
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Mar 26, 2024, 1:00 PM
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Of the 180M in revenue on the P&L over 100M is unallocated to an individual sport and sits on a total enterprise line
Even excluding the 58M in IPTAY revenue there is 46M administrative (probably the TV contract), 6M in ad revenue, and 9M in licensing. The basketball team helped generate at least some of this 61M in revenue.
Using the logic from your OP we should probably eliminate the football team since it "loses" over 40M a year.
Here is my real concern, what in the hale is IPTAY doing to spend 6M of our donations on overhead? We spend more on IPTAY than building maintenance.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Had 5 minutes at lunch to look at the schedules and had to give you a TD
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Mar 26, 2024, 4:08 PM
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That $100M is not directly attributable to a program revenue. That's why it's shown that way per governmental accounting standards. I actually agree with you about IPTAY, however.
TD back at ya big fella.
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110%er [8588]
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Oh I know exactly why the revenue is held on a consolidated line
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Mar 26, 2024, 8:21 PM
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I produce documents like this regularly; only with a few extra zeros. The point is you can’t use a public filing like this to make a conclusion about whether or not an individual program is in the black. There is a difference between a financial report and an operational report; I guarantee you that the athletic department has internal measurement that allocates all revenues back to programs to measure relative financial health, we’re just not privy to those reports.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: I'm trying to understand something here. Looking at Clemson's financials, it
Mar 26, 2024, 8:53 PM
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This may be apples and oranges but another report came out for 2023 by the university on revenue and P&L by sport and it showed Football and Basketball as the only ones that were profitable. BB wasn't all that much, ~$700K, but at least they weren't losing money.
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Legend [16921]
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