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All-In [27193]
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Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
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Mar 16, 2023, 9:37 AM
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same time retain Brownlee? I just can't reconcile the two positions. Something is off.
Full disclaimer: I'm not a Monte Lee fan....but his performance was on par with that of Brownlee.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
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Mar 16, 2023, 9:38 AM
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There is no defensible way to reconcile the two.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 9:40 AM
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And looking at the numbers, I see no tangible net financial gain by retaining him another year. That's what makes it all the more puzzling to me.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 9:51 AM
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It makes no sense beyond the fact that they’re buds and Neff, being significantly younger, looks up to Brownell and can’t overcome that bias. Unless we fully intend to run his contract to zero there is no reason not to do the buyout. I thought renegotiating the buyout down was one of the few good coaching maneuvers DRad made. Now we’re squandering it.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 9:54 AM
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Precisely. The Brownlee fanboys were attempting to suggest that running down his contract was "genius" because the buydown gave us more financial savings if we let him go next year.
I would suggest that the numbers show otherwise. Running an additional year through his contract is essentially a wash. I see no financial net gain or looking at it from a discounted cash flow basis, any tangible return on investment.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 10:44 AM
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While we risk players running off whenever he’s fired, with only 1 incoming freshman signed, I think the potential damage for a new coach is greater next year than this. Next coach may be using the transfer portal to find his entire team. Brownell has also fostered a team culture that is about himself, not the school. Players were trolling Clemson fans on social media after the Monday announcement. Things are not in a healthy place which we’re supposed to believe is one of Brownell’s few benefits.
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CU Guru [1301]
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Just follow the money
Mar 16, 2023, 10:11 AM
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Brownell is tight with Bart Proctor who is bank rolling the program at this point
Monte Lee got the axe because former players stopped giving because they were mad the “their” coach was fired for underperforming. Which really helped Monte out (/s). That’s the only logical reason he would bring Leggett back in an advisor role, to get them to open up their pockets again.
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CU Guru [1301]
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I’d also like to add that I was probably one of Montes biggest fans
Mar 16, 2023, 12:51 PM
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and even I understood it was time for his dismissal. Coaches should be judged on performance, not hunches or relationships or feelings.
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Legend [16058]
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CU Guru [1301]
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Precisely***
Mar 16, 2023, 1:58 PM
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110%er [6452]
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Re: Precisely***
Mar 16, 2023, 2:57 PM
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Oh ####
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Orange Blooded [2723]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 10:13 AM
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Baseball is a historically relevant program that’s expected to be a top 15 team.
Basketball is not.
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CU Guru [1895]
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I find this argument nonsensical
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Mar 16, 2023, 10:19 AM
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I don't know if you're making it, or simply highlighting it.
The fact that our basketball team is historically mediocre is irrelevant.
The only question is: do we wish to remain that way?
If so, keep Brownell. If not, aim higher. The sample size is plenty large enough to draw valid conclusions.
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110%er [6452]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 10:24 AM
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Monte Lee had lost the team. That was it. There were literally players’ parents on social media bashing other players who were in the lineup while their kid was not. There was animosity towards teammates and towards Lee. That’s why he was fired.
We got rid of Lee and the bad eggs that went to Coot U….
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110%er [6452]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
Mar 16, 2023, 10:27 AM
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And yes to what JimmyHoward said too. There were a lot of people in the baseball program that were pissed about Leggett. That’s why he’s back in the dugout. We’ll see how that goes.
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Associate AD [800]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
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Mar 16, 2023, 10:39 AM
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Baseball at Clemson was built into a conference and national power by Coach Wilhelm. Leggett held serve for the most part. Lee did not fit. Basketball at Clemson is the toughest gig in town for a coach. Fire Brownell and we'll go to the bottom of the ACC and be there for a long while. Some of you would then have something real to squawk about.
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CU Guru [1895]
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I call B.S. on this argument
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Mar 16, 2023, 10:56 AM
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Coaching matters. Period. Always has and always will.
Yes, if we get the wrong coach we go to the bottom...and stay there.
If we get the right coach we have 1-2 tough years - perhaps - then begin the climb to the top. See: football coach.
The only thing we know with absolute certainty is that if we keep Brownell we stay average and irrelevant for the tenure.
I don't understand fans who aim low, and then justify hitting low.
Aim high instead.
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CU Medallion [52462]
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Re: I call B.S. on this argument
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Mar 16, 2023, 11:13 AM
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"I don't understand fans who aim low, and then justify hitting low.
Aim high instead."
AMEN!!
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110%er [6858]
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Commissioner [929]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
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Mar 16, 2023, 12:28 PM
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If I am going to try to rationalize the 2 decisions:
Monte Lee took over a team that won the ACC tournament and hosted regionals for three straight years. He solved the Clemson problem of not being able to win enough games in regionals by no longer making it to regionals at all. I feel bad for Monte because the best team he had a Clemson and most importantly the best pitching staff (which is what matters in the postseason) only got to play a third of a season.
Brownell was hired because the previous coach left. He maintained the level for a short period of time, then dipped and has now returned to the level the program was at with the previous coach. The problem for Brownell that is out of his control is that if Purnell ever finished 3rd in the ACC he would have been a 3 seed in the NCAA tournament. Brownell just finished 3rd in a terrible ACC and he didn't even make the NCAA tournament. Brownell has not made the program worse than it was under OP, but the selection committee no longer wants to choose a mid-tier ACC team to be in the NCAA tournament.
TLDR version. Monte Lee fell below the standard of winning set by the coach who was fired before him. Seems like an obvious reason to fire a coach.
Brownell after some ups and down in the middle, has the program at the same level as the previous coach who was not fired but chose to level Clemson on his own while still being in good standing from a win/loss standpoint.
I am all for raising the expectations for Clemson basketball, but if you simply look at the fact that people were mostly happy with OP for winning a similar percentage of games then firing Brownell for keeping that standard recently doesn't make sense.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Can Neff realistically defend firing Monte Lee but at the
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Mar 16, 2023, 1:15 PM
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You mention that it doesn't make sense that fans are unhappy with BB for keeping a similar winning percentage as OP, and I'd say that's because the ACC is nowhere near as good as it was when OP was here. You mentioned BB finishing 3rd in the ACC and missing the tournament as if the NCAA standards have gotten tougher, but fail to realize it's because the ACC has gone down. It's not even just that the ACC isn't as tough, it's that we lost to a South Carolina team that finished 11-21, got blown out by a Loyola team that finished 10-21, lost to a BC team that finished 16-17, and a Louisville team that finished 4-28.
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Legend [16058]
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At least Monte Lee won an ACC Championship***
Mar 16, 2023, 12:59 PM
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All-In [44054]
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Of course he can.
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Mar 16, 2023, 1:03 PM
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Brownell just had one of our best seasons in program history, setting multiple records.
In contrast, Monte had a bad season which was another losing ACC record and a worse ACC finish than the year prior.
The two situations aren't similar at all.
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Of course he can.
Mar 16, 2023, 1:05 PM
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They’re similar because they’re both terrible coaches. And the records are meaningless when you change the number of games played and how the schedule is made. So keep harping on that. It’s a clear sign you have no actual defense of this coach.
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Legend [16058]
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At best its the 14th best season in program history...
Mar 16, 2023, 1:07 PM
[ in reply to Of course he can. ] |
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And being bounced in the first round of the NIT puts it even further back.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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ANY SEASON that ends without playing in the NCAAT...
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Mar 16, 2023, 1:29 PM
[ in reply to Of course he can. ] |
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cannot possibly be considered the best in program history. Not even close !!!!
You can define this past season a lot of different ways, but "the best in program history" isn't one of them.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Of course he can.
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Mar 16, 2023, 10:10 PM
[ in reply to Of course he can. ] |
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That's absurd. We missed the NCAA's and lost the 1st round of the consolation prize tournament to the 16th seed. And you call that one of "our best seasons in history"?!? Wow....maybe you can gaslight Neff but you can't gaslight knowledgeable fans.
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