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Oculus Spirit [80444]
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Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:24 AM
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He was talking about having difference makers on offense and asked if anybody could name 1 sure fire nfl first round draft player anywhere on our offense. Nobody could, including me. I hadn't thought about things in that light before but it really puts things into context about where we stand talent wise and a big reason that we are struggling on that side of the ball. On the other hand, the defense is more than holding their own and they have several future first round players.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:26 AM
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This would be the "plow" Riley was referring to.......figuratively speaking, of course.
Riley's exact quote was, when asked about why the offense was struggling: "I would say it’s who we have and who we are right now and just trying to work through it."
I think that implies we have a serious lack of speed on the field at the moment and that is really holding us back (with the exception of Brown).
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CU Guru [1867]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:47 AM
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Like Reggie said, “we got who we got”.
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Orange Blooded [3629]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning. ] |
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I didn’t realize how slow we were (lulled into the norm over the past few years) until Tyler Brown. He plays at a completely different speed and level. We need about three more of him.
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All-American [570]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 2:31 PM
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When they said Cole Turner was the fastest on the team, I didn't think wow I didn't know he was that fast, I thought wow I didn't know everyone on the team was that slow.
Now that I typed that I feel embarrassed to be talking about those with lack of speed but point still stands.
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110%er [7167]
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Being elite requires superstars.
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:32 AM
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It also requires a solid base of 4 stars. We have that solid base right now and thats why we can play and probably should've beat FSU but also can lose to Duke. Those superstars are the ones that make the plays to put both of those games out of reach for the other team. Thats the difference in these teams the past 3 years. We just need a couple.
Etienne dug us out of some holes in 2019. Trevor did the same that year. But that team wasn't very good dominant but we still made it to the championship against Burrow. Put DJU and Shipley on that team and we probably look like we do this year.
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Orange Blooded [2715]
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Re: Being elite requires superstars.
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Oct 11, 2023, 11:06 AM
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It also requires a solid base of 4 stars. We have that solid base right now and thats why we can play and probably should've beat FSU but also can lose to Duke. Those superstars are the ones that make the plays to put both of those games out of reach for the other team. Thats the difference in these teams the past 3 years. We just need a couple.
Etienne dug us out of some holes in 2019. Trevor did the same that year. But that team wasn't very good dominant but we still made it to the championship against Burrow. Put DJU and Shipley on that team and we probably look like we do this year.
This is probably the most accurate read I've seen in a minute through all the diluted posts I've gone through and needs to be heavily thumbed up and pinned to the board.
We get 3-4 superstars sprinkled on offense like we have on defense (whether developed or recruited), and we're serious playoff and natty contenders again.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 9:34 AM
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I'm not sure there's a sure fire second rounder on our Offense.
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Oculus Spirit [80444]
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No, on the show this morning they only mentioned some that
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:36 AM
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might be 4-7 rounders.
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:37 AM
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Cade has the potential to be a 1st rounder.
Shipley looks like a day 3 pick.
Mafah probably goes undrafted.
Beaux probably goes undrafted.
Antonio looks like a day 3 pick.
Randall certainly goes undrafted.
Stellato probably goes undrafted.
Cole certainly goes undrafted.
Tyler is still a true frosh, so too early to tell.
Briningstool looks like a day 3 pick.
All of these seem obvious to me. Objectively, we have middle of the road skill players for the ACC. And we've had that for 3 years in a row. Missed evaluations and/or poor development are the likeliest causes, IMO.
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Oculus Spirit [80444]
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That pretty much matches with what they were saying this
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Oct 11, 2023, 9:43 AM
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morning minus Cade. As of now, they think he goes much later than first round. He's still got two years to shine and improve but right now, I don't view him as a sure fire first rounder.
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110%er [6397]
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Re: That pretty much matches with what they were saying this
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Oct 11, 2023, 11:08 AM
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Some draft experts are projecting Rattler as a 1st rounder today. We would have laughed at that notion 2-3 years ago. Rattler was always really talented, like Cade. He just needed time to develop.
I believe Cade makes that leap as well. He looks like a guy that will stay for four years. The senior version of Cade is going to look like a 1st rounder, IMO. He has all the tools. Just needs more time. We need to be patient with him.
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110%er [9193]
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Re: That pretty much matches with what they were saying this
Oct 11, 2023, 8:27 PM
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Rattler is a 4th rounder at best
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Legend [19586]
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110%er [6397]
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Re: I think Mafah has the potential to be drafted higher than
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Oct 11, 2023, 11:12 AM
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I don't see it. Mafah doesn't run behind his pads like other bigger backs do. He isn't the bruiser like he should be. He doesn't have elite speed and he isn't a threat out of the backfield. I could see him being a day 3 pick if he became our true #1 option. But I don't see a team picking him in the first 3 rounds.
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Asst Coach [707]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning. ] |
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I don't agree with this. And no idea who the hell Plyler is.
Cade could be a first rounder, but because he doesn't have the physical assets, he's going to need to be phenomenal to get there (and without NFL receivers, it's pretty much impossible). I think it's very unlikely right now, and I'm one of his bigger fans.
Shipley might go day 2. I don't think he's particularly great and would flop hard in the NFL, but I think his high school stock was high enough and he gets enough media attention someone would risk earlier.
Mafah will start next year and is flat out better than Shipley in pretty much every way. He's also built like an NFL back. I think he'll end up getting drafted, but probably no better than day 2.
Beaux might be day 3 since they do think of him as our best receiver (even though he isn't).
We'll see about Antonio. I think he is our best receiver, but there are fewer spots for slot receivers. He has a chance if the rest of the offense improves.
I'll wait on Stellato too since he has a bunch of eligibility left.
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110%er [6397]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 11:10 AM
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I don't see it with Shipley. He doesn't have enough game breaking speed. RBs are a dying position in the NFL. I don't see many times using a 2nd or 3rd round pick on someone that isn't a burner or bruiser. Shipley is neither of those things.
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110%er [9193]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 8:28 PM
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Ship won’t get drafted, maybe a late round pick at best.
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110%er [7167]
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Briningstool never delivers contact like a true Tight End
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Oct 11, 2023, 1:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning. ] |
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He usually recoils and waits for it, more like a wide out. ITs just an attitude thing you'd like your Tight End to have. I noticed that last week against Wake and that kinda bummed me out on his NFL aspirations.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: Briningstool never delivers contact like a true Tight End
Oct 11, 2023, 5:01 PM
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He needs to hit the weight room hard and develop his upper body.
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110%er [5268]
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Re: Briningstool never delivers contact like a true Tight End
Oct 11, 2023, 11:08 PM
[ in reply to Briningstool never delivers contact like a true Tight End ] |
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i dont think he gained three pounds over the off season. Huge disappointment. I think he truly believes he is a WR instead of a tight end. Fell for the hype,
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110%er [7497]
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I would put Mafah and Shipley in the same boat
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Oct 11, 2023, 2:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning. ] |
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I think Mafah is better but they are probably both day 3 or FA guys. Other than Beaux who I agree with, I think it’s way too early on all of the WRs you list. They are all young or in Stellatos case he’s just getting on the field. Cole is raw because he didn’t play much hs football but has serious speed. We’ve only seen him in a handful of games. Williams we saw for a year but he’s been hurt and he didn’t look as good last year as Brown does this year based on visual observation. Disagree on Briningstool - we’ve seen a good bit of him - he’ll have to improve drastically to be draft-able. Doesn’t block well and looks clumsy at times. He still has a chance/time to improve but right now I’d say no. He’s just a tall target over the middle, there will be plenty of other options for NFL teams with guys that are more than that. Cade - high ceiling but has work to do and will have to overcome the measurables argument. He doesn’t exactly help his future when he makes comments about having difficulty seeing over the lineman, etc. we don’t exactly have the tallest line.
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Orange Blooded [4976]
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Re: I would put Mafah and Shipley in the same boat
Oct 11, 2023, 5:05 PM
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I've thought myself that Cade probably has trouble seeing past the OL, maybe the DL too. Can't we scheme for that a little bit?
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110%er [9193]
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Orange Blooded [4679]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:11 AM
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I kinda look at it this way. We often forget that football is a team sport and very good players can look far worse than they really are or mediocre players can look far better than they are depending on how the entire group performs as a team.
So just maybe this "talent" gap everyone wants to blame is really Clemson not being able to synchronize the team to have the synergy to make talent stand out. Ahead of every great college football QB is a great offensive line. Great receivers are made by great quarterbacks getting them the ball or vice versa. A great running back still has to have the hole to run through. Great D-Lines force bad passes that create interceptions or knocked-down passes, and secondaries guarding receivers well forces an offense running game which makes them single-faceted and easier to defend against....all of this begins to let the talented guys shine more and more brightly..
You might say we lack talent straight across the board, but I just kinda wonder how we ended up like this with top recruiting classes year after year. Did the talent that everyone ranking recruiting classes across the USA agreed upon just disappear or is it still there but just not synched up and trained up like it could be?
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:44 AM
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The talent "gap" or whatever you want to call it is the real issue.
It's not that the talentbus "bad", or that all the services got it wrong. It's that the guys we got are all complementary guys, and not "main" guys.
How did we get to this point? Simple. We don't have the recruiting advantages we had in the past. If you go back to around 2011-12 when we first started winning, all the big time schools were playing smash mouth football. Alabama and LSU played that infamous 9-6 game. Alabama had Greg McElroy and AJ McCarron at quarterback. Ohio St was running the Tim Tebow offense with Braxton Miller and JT Barrett. We had something more unique to offer. We were running a more wide open offense that featured the passing game. That gives guys like Deshaun Watson and Sammy Watkins mire incentive to cone here.
Now, all the big schools have changed philosophy. Alabama's kady 3 quarterbacks were Tua, Mac Jones, and, Bryce Young. All first rounders. Ohio St's last 2 quarterbacks were Justin Fieldss and CJ Stroud. Both first rounders. Our offense isn't unique anymore, so recruits can do the same kind of thing at these other big schools now.
Also, 10-12 years ago, Clemson was one of the first schools to use social media in recruiting. Now everybody does it. A few years ago, Ohio St hired a guy from Clemson's team to head their social media operation. Again, we no longer have that advantage.
Also, everybody has copied Dabo's whole style. Even 80 year old Mack Brown is dancing in the locker room now.
We don't have the recruiting advantages we had in the past, so now we have to compete straight up with Alabama, Georgia, Ohio St, etc. for elite recruits, and we aren't getting them like we used to.
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CU Medallion [58438]
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I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:15 AM
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definitely miss that. What concerns me, however, is that we are still significantly more talented than Wake or Duke, yet it didn't show on the field. To me, missing those elite players explains why we aren't elite as a team, but it doesn't explain looking totally unprepared and playing like crap. And yes, I know we outgained Duke, but we were outplayed, and even without those elite players, we should have run Wake off of the field. Something else is still missing.
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110%er [5483]
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Re: I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:21 AM
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Bulls eye!
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110%er [6453]
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Re: I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we ] |
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You know what’s missing? A competent coaching staff who can develop players and are able to put those players in positions to play clean, efficient, and complete games.
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Recruit [90]
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Re: I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we
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Oct 11, 2023, 10:46 AM
[ in reply to I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we ] |
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yeah i definitely co-sign with this. At this point, my expectation of the program is nothing less then 10 wins (especially while we are still in the ACC), and if we have 2-3 losses, those losses came during a prime time top 25 match up. I only see 3 teams on our schedule that are on our level for a competitive game, FSU, ND, and UNC.
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we
Oct 11, 2023, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to I agree, we don't have Trevor/Etienne/Higgins, and we ] |
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Well, we kind of don't have enough talent to blow out Duke or Wake Forest, for this reason. Our entire philosophy has been to beat teams with skill players making plays. We are simply not constructed as a team that can line up and beat you physically, or methodically drive down the field. That was the entire basis of the Chad Morris offense, to make up for being outmatched physically.
A good example is the South Carolina game in 2016. As dominant as that game was, the announcers made the point that when we ran a straight up play, South Carolina was able to hold up ok against us. It was when we got our skill guys isolated or ran some misdirection that we overwhelmed them. (I think this was said right before we scored the 3rd touchdown.)
It's just a by product of the way the team has been constructed, so if we don't have those elite guys, it hurts us more that your Alabamas or Georgias.
https://youtu.be/bwnsA77_RdE?si=S-xxOsmxIRk7FJo-
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Oculus Spirit [80444]
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110%er [5579]
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Hate to break up a good narrative
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Oct 11, 2023, 2:25 PM
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But, does anyone think guys like Nuke, Mike Williams, Renfro, etc, and a long list of past players would have been drafted so high, or at all if it weren't for the great coaching they received at Clemson??
How many 1st round offensive guys has Clemson even had under Dabo? Three, maybe? DW4, TL, and Sammy Watkins. None of them played together.
Remember Hendon Hooker who was going nowhere fast at VT? He transfers to UT, gets coached up and all of the sudden he's a superstar who proceeds to gets drafted in the 1st, or 2cnd round?
Dabo's most talented teams on paper are struggling to score points. Why could that be? Maybe without great coaching....you won't have any 1st rounders???
Lord knows, as college football teams go we're super-talented across the board. It's not really a mystery, the talent is in the locker room. Cade's super-talented, and has 1st round talent potential. But, it'll need to be developed. Same goes for some of the other guys....there's lots of talent to work with.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Mike Williams and CJ were the only other two on the O side?
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Oct 11, 2023, 4:57 PM
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Clemson's average team talent based on recruiting class for the 6 year run...
Hendon Hooker was very talented at VPI&SU[Top 250 talent, 5 overall Dual QB, 247], he was surrounded by a lot more talent at UT as a 5th & 6th year guy after earning his degree at Hoki Hoki Hi.
He got beat out by Joe Milton in 2021 before Joe got hurt in their 2nd game and Herndon took over.
Nice story, but time[6 years] to realize talent revealed at Hoki Hi was Hooker's friend after which he was taken in the 3rd round.
Group effort, Hooker included for patience and work ethic?
+1
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110%er [5579]
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Re: Mike Williams and CJ were the only other two on the O side?
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Oct 11, 2023, 6:50 PM
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Great points all around.
Is there something the lack of speed at WR hurting the offense? Probably. But, even if we had Nuke and Mike Williams on this team it wouldn't fix everything.
My thoughts are that we're a couple of stud WRs and a few coaches away from being elite again.
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Rock Defender [64]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
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Oct 11, 2023, 2:34 PM
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Wow! I’ve never seen a fan base so full of excuses. Who did lose last year that made us…not talented enough to do better offensively. Last year at this time we had beat Wake by scoring 51 points; had a top 15 overall offensive production; were in the top 5 for red zone production; AND 5th IN THE COUNTRY.
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CU Guru [1750]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 3:14 PM
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Yeah I figured our talent was at least comparable to TCU on offense, but sadly I was mistaken. Thus not looking like a well oiled machine yet.
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Scout Team [174]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 5:17 PM
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We have to many recruiting misses. Its sad to say some of these guys got a recruiting bump.
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Orange Blooded [2030]
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Cade a day one NFL pick?
Oct 11, 2023, 5:28 PM
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🤣🤣🤣
That ain’t happening.
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Rock Defender [64]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 10:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning. ] |
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The only recruiting Miss we have had lately is not signing a 2024 QB…don’t recall that ever happening. In fact, I’m pretty sure that last 8 years has been the best run of 4 and 5 star QB’s clemson has ever had. Before DW4 we might have had 1.
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Walk-On [102]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.***
Oct 11, 2023, 8:12 PM
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Walk-On [102]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 8:12 PM
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If Phil had more carries he would be our Todd Gurley.
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All-Conference [406]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 9:20 PM
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So last year everyone was screaming for WG’s head on a plate for crappy D. Now the D is stellar. Now this season it’s all on the O and you’re b*****n’ about GR’s offense as a 1st OC and with an inexperienced QB as well. Geez but y’all disgust me as CU fans.
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Rock Defender [64]
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Re: Caller on Plyler's show had a good point this morning.
Oct 11, 2023, 10:18 PM
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Just curious- why does GR get a 1st year break and the offense under streeter did better with only 1 year, but we wanted him gone 🤔
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