|
Replies: 48
| visibility 1,301
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
5
5
Jan 22, 2024, 1:20 PM
|
|
When he took the job, he shared his enthusiasm about Clemson fans turning out for winning basketball despite the program not having much of a reputation there, and was confident he could produce that here. OP's 3 straight NCAA appearances had really juiced up the atmosphere in Littlejohn along the way, and he was eager to step into that.
Instead, he took a 9,000 average attendance season under Purnell steadily downward since, to last season's 6,500 per game - a steady and sure slow ebb of bodies and energy, season after season.
Was Brad wrong about Clemson basketball fans? Or did he simply not deliver what he knew was needed to keep the fans engaged and propel the program forward? Based on the numbers, seems like the latter.
Go Tigers!
#FreeClemsonHoops
|
|
|
|
 |
110%er [5511]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3326
Joined: 1/19/05
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
4
Jan 22, 2024, 1:27 PM
|
|
Clearly Brad has not delivered. And is incapable of doing so.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 1:35 PM
|
|
In year 1, he delivered and did something purnell couldnt do his entire career.
After year 1, the leftovers players were below average. He didnt have a recruiting class in year 1 due to timing and he missed on a few recruits in his second class, which really delayed program progression. Luckily this program is currently in better position for success than how purnell left it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17385]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14314
Joined: 12/14/98
|
Seriously year 2 recruits delayed the programs progress?
1
Jan 22, 2024, 2:17 PM
|
|
Better shape next year after PJ and Girard move on?
Whatever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22409]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31304
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Without a Tournament-ready roster in year 1 for Brad, would he still be here?
4
Jan 22, 2024, 2:27 PM
|
|
I doubt he would have survived his first 7 years had he not had a roster composed entirely of Oliver Purnell's recruits and missed The Tournament in year 1.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Without a Tournament-ready roster in year 1 for Brad, would he still be here?
1
Jan 22, 2024, 6:20 PM
|
|
He inherited our highest ranked recruiting class in Clemson basketball history as rising sophomores. His first year as coach at Clemson, Brownell had 5 of the top 14 players all-time at Clemson per 247 sports. And everyone gave him a pass for absolutely no reason than we seem to resign ourselves to basketball purgatory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Seriously year 2 recruits delayed the programs progress?
Jan 22, 2024, 6:12 PM
[ in reply to Seriously year 2 recruits delayed the programs progress? ] |
|
If you really want to watch his head explode ask him why Brad shoulders none of the responsibility for the best ranked basketball recruiting class in Clemson basketball history were all busts. He loves to trash every player on that squad by name but someone exempts Brad from any responsibility.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4610]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3371
Joined: 8/12/14
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 6:21 PM
|
|
why yes, he does.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 2:44 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here. ] |
|
Hey - I was thrilled that Brad was able to take OP's roster and maintain our NCAA streak after winning the Play-In game. Jerai Grant made big strides also that season so it seemed like we had a legit development guy on our hands who could lead us with a motion style, defensive effort like UVA and Butler were having success with. Like many basketball fans, I was looking forward to what lay ahead.
Then the reality of Brad and his game prep / game flow kicked in, disappointing season after disappointing season, with the occasional shine, and here we are. I was wrong back then in believing it was a step forward. After defending him against the OP comparisons and doing similar math gymnastics to show how he really was doing a bit better statistically - what ultimately transpired on the court, and how these disappointments came about, turned the tide. He's truly done nothing since from an actual coaching standpoint to believe we will ever become relevant under him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 2:47 PM
|
|
Actually the talent left over in year 2 and beyond were below average.
You do agree that we have rarely had freshman come in and be instant inpact players right? What maies you think brownell should have been successful with milton jennings and devin booker leading this team with a bunch of underclassmen?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 3:01 PM
|
|
I believed Brad's credentials as a talent developer. I wasn't all hot and heavy to cut ways until years into it where it was painfully obvious by then that his actual coaching chops were not all that, regardless of who he had on the floor. He has had ample opportunity over the years - his failure to produce a winning program over this span is what it is. His own metrics coming in tell that tale.
I'm sure you can agree that his ability to develop talent is highly suspect, considering how poor his retention is on recruits overall. If it weren't for instant play with the portal today we would be up Schitt's Creek.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 5:51 PM
|
|
Another clueless post. This is a symptom of only watching clemson and not other teams. Transfers happen, and it's not unique to brownell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 6:36 PM
|
|
Really? I watch a ton of NCAA tournament ball and Clemson is nowhere to be found there. Maybe you have the confuses?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1294]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 529
Joined: 12/5/23
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Play In Game Win
Jan 22, 2024, 5:52 PM
|
|
One of the dumbest posts i have season. You mean we are counting the game that we won in the ncaa tournament as an ncaa tournament win? Wow!! My mind is blown. 😂😂😂😂
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Play In Game Win
1
Jan 22, 2024, 6:23 PM
|
|
if you weren't simply troll you'd understand that it was a "First Four" game that did not exist prior to that season. So when you hold it up against his predecessor, which you did, then you are being either dishonest or stupid. Maybe both.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Trainer [26]
TigerPulse: 87%
Posts: 237
Joined: 1/8/24
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40862]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10691
Joined: 6/23/17
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: You are correct for once.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:53 PM
|
|
Op certainly had the chance to beat a 12 seed, and unfortunately he failed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: You are correct for once.
Jan 22, 2024, 6:24 PM
|
|
Do you think a 12 seed is the same when you're adding more of them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4610]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3371
Joined: 8/14/01
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 2:42 PM
|
|
To be fair, not all of that is on CBB nor the program. Attendance is down in a lot of places and a lot of sports.
Google shows headlines saying the same...
College football attendance declines for seventh straight season to lowest average since 1981
Even the best teams and conferences across college football saw attendance drops this season
2022
NBA, NHL Attendance Lags Behind Pre-Pandemic Pace 2021
These pro sports teams are running out of fans
Grant Suneson24/7 Wall Street 2019
Nobody’s Going to Sports in Person Anymore. And No One Seems to Care. 2018
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 2:46 PM
|
|
The ACC, and college basketball in general, are indeed down alongside. We are unfortunately outpacing the ACC's leaguewide decline by close to double.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [8580]
TigerPulse: 49%
Posts: 11557
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 2:54 PM
|
|
The record tells a different story.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
2
Jan 22, 2024, 3:03 PM
|
|
Worse than every coach since the 80's not named Shyatt? Going from 3 NCAA's in a row to 3 in 13 years?
Lulz old feller.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 5:03 PM
|
|
Ehh, sort of true. Then why is he still here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:48 PM
|
|
Timing. Brad does just enough to turn the tide when his seat is hottest. The NCAA appearance Year 1 went a long way to cover those first four years. Big NIT run when it looked like he might have peaked and flamed out. Littlejohn Reno. Can't fire him just yet the year after because new hotness opportunity needs to work for him. Boom! Sweet 16! Finally! Brad has arrived! Give him guaranteed years ahead and bump up the buyout. Falter, falter - Covid! Then a short season and NCAA (and ACC) one and done. One year this time. Then falter, but WOW! Record-setting 5-game ACC win streak to salvage .500 at season's end. His kids never quit! One-year extension. Then WOW! Historic league finish - he was robbed of the NCAA! Extension!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16947]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10799
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 6:32 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here. ] |
|
Literally no it doesn't. The record is why attendance has become so poor. He inherited a 3 time NCAA squad, with the highest ranked recruiting class in our history as sophomores. He had 4 top 100 players - 3 which had 3 years eligibility left and 1 with 2. There were only 2 senior starters on the team. KJ McDaniels would come in a year later with Brownell's star recruit Bernard Sullivan - another top 100 player. And as would become a constant pattern, he left 2 seasons later. And that's before "Muh Portal!!".
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [8126]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 10531
Joined: 11/28/03
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 3:08 PM
|
|
Are you are saying Brad has lost more games than he has won? As that would be the definition of a losing program. Since Brad has won many more games than he has lost, he has led a winning program.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 3:13 PM
|
|
No, Stupid. I am not. Brad knows what a 'winning program' is and simply being + .500 isn't it. With how defeatist you are with our hoops program maybe that's all it takes for you. Brad knows better.
You could spin that over on FGF, though. SCar football is like 20 games over .500 in their history. Winning program, or laughing stock cellar dwellers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [8126]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 10531
Joined: 11/28/03
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 4:29 PM
|
|
No, Stupid. I am not. Brad knows what a 'winning program' is and simply being + .500 isn't it. With how defeatist you are with our hoops program maybe that's all it takes for you. Brad knows better.
You could spin that over on FGF, though. SCar football is like 20 games over .500 in their history. Winning program, or laughing stock cellar dwellers?
Actually a winning program is exactly > .500. Being < .500 is a losing program. Its not that hard...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17631]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11054
Joined: 10/13/08
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:36 PM
|
|
Then by your definition USuC has had a winning football program over their history? Most Coots would even disagree with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:49 PM
|
|
Apparently he is not like most coots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here. ] |
|
No, Stupid. I am not. Brad knows what a 'winning program' is and simply being + .500 isn't it. With how defeatist you are with our hoops program maybe that's all it takes for you. Brad knows better.
You could spin that over on FGF, though. SCar football is like 20 games over .500 in their history. Winning program, or laughing stock cellar dwellers? Actually a winning program is exactly > .500. Being < .500 is a losing program. Its not that hard...
Next these geniuses are going to tell us winning a game in the ncaa tournament is not an ncaa tournament win. 😂😂😂😂
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4610]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3371
Joined: 8/14/01
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:28 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here. ] |
|
Brad Brownell has lost more games than any head coach in Clemson history. He has a losing record in ACC play 120–121 (.498). His overall winning percentage is lower than any head coach since the 1970s except for Larry Shyatt.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 3:11 PM
|
|
While I can see the direction you are going, what constitutes a winning program? Tournament berths, winning%,etc… Can you define what a “winning program” IS? Would like to define the target level expected. Just saying winning is too broad in my opinion. Thanks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 3:37 PM
|
|
Certainly a fair question, and hard to pinpoint. In this instance, since it was Brad stating that if Clemson is 'winning' in basketball that the support and turnout is great, I'm guessing it would be based on the roughly 2/3 winning percentage and success in conference tournaments that he had experienced in his prior HC stints, and what Purnell was doing here at the time. Deliver those results here and LJ will be filled with raucous fans regularly. But alas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 3:47 PM
|
|
Ok, I’m good with this. .667 winning %. Would this be conference or overall?
And we are also setting Purnell as a good standard to measure against? I liked OP, probably a good standard to bounce off of as a comparison. What was Purnell’s winning %? Do we know? Assuming better than .667.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 4:02 PM
|
|
Overall here I think OP is under .600? He took over the dumpster fire after Shyatt and incrementally built it up to cap off with 3 NCAA appearances and a trip to the ACC finals in the midst. His last 3 seasons were definitely at or above that clip and at a 'winning' level that provided Brad with assurances that our fans would show up accordingly with a similar product.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 4:45 PM
|
|
But to be blunt, expected win % would be 67%, or they should be fired, right?
How many times have you given an annual review and included other years for that year’s performance. 67% last year, 72% this year, am I right? Maybe Neff was just using the facts for last years review. We shouldn’t have lost the GaTech game. That one hurt, but if someone says we are a winning program right now, we are. By you own criteria.
I mean I guess Neff could say, “sorry we should have fired you in 2022 and 2019 before that.” ,but that really isn’t how it works.
Dabo’s success and Covid saved this guy, but the current win % IS pretty good. Should he be fired mid season?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16275]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12797
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:35 PM
|
|
Nobody should be fired mid-season save for something non-sports related or if a coach was straight out face planting, losing the team, and potentially gutting future prospects. I wouldn't advocate for that otherwise at all, in any sport.
I also agree that currently we are having a 'winning season' based on Brad's stated expectations coming in, moreso than mine, and are in a decent position record-wise to gain a NCAA berth, provided we perform strong enough down this finishing stretch. Were he to coach us into the Big Dance, that's going to be an improvement from one year to the next, and outside of other circumstances likely enough to invest in another season.
Brad bought himself extensions in the past when it could have gone the other way. As I've mentioned before he has a knack for delivering just enough when his seat is most on fire. Hard to blame AD's for re-upping, though I have questioned the longer pacts he was granted at the time based largely on a winning blip and promise. Perhaps he does that again this season. The one year tack-ons of late from Neff seem to be effective enough IMO.
Regardless, I'll be tuned in to every minute of Clemson hoops that I can muster, like normal. I don't dislike Brad, or his TNet handlers, enough to ever let that get in the way of Tiger glory and seeing our kids enjoy those moments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
Jan 22, 2024, 5:55 PM
|
|
Your analysis of always being the bare minimum to get by is spot on. The only way to fix this is to raise expectations and having those expectations in writing.
No contract extension was a good start, but there is still verbiage in the contract that rewards subpar performance. Should he get an extension this year, Neff needs to get these things updated. No extension will most certainly mean we part ways and therefore moot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 8366
Joined: 8/12/14
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
Jan 22, 2024, 5:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here. ] |
|
The talent shyatt left for OP in year 2 was better than the talent OP left for brownell in year 2. Other than that, we still had the same crappy facilities and worst history in the acc. So they were both basically left in the same position year 2 on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Recruit [91]
TigerPulse: 64%
Posts: 99
Joined: 1/3/24
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
2
Jan 22, 2024, 3:17 PM
|
|
Brad got fortunate that he coached against a "burnt out" old man Leonard Hamilton (75 yrs. old) who was never a good coach, but a good recruiter. Duke will be much different at Durham. That is for sure a loss, and based on the schedule remaining they still have 6 more losses left. That's a total of 11 losses at least. That FSU win did not get him out of the woods. Looks like 19-12 for the regular season.
NCAA bid with a losing conference record (11 losses) not likely. NIT bid.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1408]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1157
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Even Brad would have to admit that he has not led a winning program here.
1
1
Jan 22, 2024, 3:21 PM
|
|
Nah, we’ll win the conference tourney. Mark it down! 😉
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 48
| visibility 1,301
|
|
|
50
