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Hall of Famer [21648]
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If we are honest with ourselves regarding the B12
May 29, 2012, 3:23 PM
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There are 4 main reasons why Clemson fans want to go to the Big 12.
1. SCAR has been kicking our @ss lately and Clemson fans have decided the reason that has happened is that SCAR makes more money than us because of conference affiliation.---the knee-jerk reaction, move to the first "football conference" that will take us.
(the problem with #1, the extra money either goes to coaches or facilities. So the only way money could be the reason SCAR has killed us lately would be is if they have coaches or facilities we could not afford. is that the case? Anyone? No.
2. Short-term thinking. a. The ACC has been horrible for the last 10 years. The Big 12 has been a little bit better. So... move to the better conference. b. Right now, the Big 12 is making more money per school. So... move to more money.
problem with #2 Has any one conference been dominate or weak for the entire 100+ history of college football? Nope. It is very presentest minded to assume that because the last 5 or 6 years have gone a certain way that they will continue that way forever. That is ignoring the reality of history. The ACC, RIGHT NOW, has the resources to defet other conferences. The ACC has teams who in the recent past have dominated college football. (Clemson, Miami 80's FSU 90's Georgia Tech National championship 1990) AND the POTENTIAL FUTURE TV CONTRACTS are likely to be better for the ACC than anyone else... IF the football teams wake up. The future TV markets are far and away the best looking in the ACC. The only reason we have not cashed in yet is the odd, temporary suckiness our teams have experienced lately. That will go away if you are patient enough.
3. It's all about the TV contratcs. Right now the SEC, Pac 12, Big 10, and Big 12 have better TV deals than us. TV deals are quickly becoming a dominant source of AD revenue. But this little thing called the economy could blow that out of the water REGARDLESS of how good each conferences is over the next 20 years. ESPN and other contract makers' priorities can shift from team performance to who has enough people living in their markets who still pay for cable? There was a RECORD drop in cable TV homes last quarter and with all the crap going on in Europe (cfr.org if you don't know anything about the eurozone crisis) we could easily see another recession/depression which GUTS tv contracts in 5 years across the board. In that scenario, the ACC would have the inside track to the best deals in the long-term sinply because of the giant potential-consumer markets. Cable TV will dissappear faster in middle america than anywhere else in that scenario. This TV contract thing is way more complex than "football message board poster A" is willing to think about.
4. We hate Swofford! We hate UNC and their dominance over the conference! We hate Ron Cherry! We hate coots making fun of our weak conference!!!! This conference only cares about basketball!!! I need more bumper sticker slogans!!!! Loud Noises!!!! Emotional decisions!!!!
I figured the board would have fun with this one. Have at it.
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Legend [19240]
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The key to #1 is "at the present."
May 29, 2012, 3:28 PM
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Now let's say we get 17 and USuC gets 31 for 5 years then...well you do the math.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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The gap isn't quite that big if you take all revenue into
May 29, 2012, 3:33 PM
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account.
And I agree that it will help them... but if we move to the Big 12 it could potentially get worse. See their markets suck and they rely on increased performance. the acc is making their money despite its performance. If one of the 3 big football schools starts playing with balls, then the ACC gets richer quick.
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CU Guru [1053]
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But with a 5 year lag until the next re-negotiation.
May 29, 2012, 3:40 PM
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Have fun playing catch-up after that.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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What exactly do you think SCAR can buy with even a billion
May 29, 2012, 3:45 PM
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dollars that would make them out-recruit us so badly?
You can't buy wins and our facilities are going to continue to get better. Kids are not going to SCAR because of a gold-plated toilet seat!
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Orange Blooded [4640]
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The attention they get on ESPN and CBS is why they are going
May 29, 2012, 3:53 PM
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to USuCk. The perception is that offers from SEC schools mean more, and that the competition is superior.
They are benefitting from the SEC/ESPN markeing machine.
Meanwhile they are improving facilities, etc. with the money...even though they cannot improve the stadiums location.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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We were getting more attention when we were 8-0.***
May 29, 2012, 3:57 PM
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Orange Blooded [4640]
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Then we lost and they said "Clemson pulled a Clemson"...
May 29, 2012, 3:59 PM
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They do not say that about a 3 or 4 loss SEC team. They instead talk about the difficult conference in which they play...
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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We deserved it. Alabama 08, SCAR 09, the whole '10 season
May 29, 2012, 4:01 PM
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NC State '11, The Orange Bowl? What do you want the media to do? Stop reporting us? They are quick to love us when we give them a reason and they are quick to trash us when we start to suck. I will take the high stakes...we just need to win.
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Orange Blooded [4640]
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My point is that an SEC team doing the same thing will not
May 29, 2012, 4:23 PM
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be crucified by ESPN...instead they will talk about how close they were to glory!
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CU Guru [1210]
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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Look at our coaches. Look at our facilities. Our campus
May 29, 2012, 4:03 PM
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gives us an advantage they can't buy. Our family atmosphere and comminment to academic excellence is something they can't buy.
We can stand 5 years of financial disadvantage and kick their @sses and then make more money after the ACC gets better.
Because of our markets, an ACC that is even close to the SEC in on field quality will make at least as much in 5 years.
Message was edited by: Completely Solid Orange®
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CU Guru [1210]
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Re: Look at our coaches. Look at our facilities. Our campus
May 29, 2012, 4:12 PM
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I think its a pipe dream that the acc will be that improved in 5 years...Miami isnt going to be because of ncaa sanctions....so it will only be us,fsu,and vt and ocasionally gt. Now yes at the moment we have a great staff but they havent been making the money that long down there..(although i believe they made 20 million more than us last year) in the long run the sec and big 12 will get the better coaches because of money..
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Orange Blooded [2361]
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Re: The money (granted, at present) isn't about the product
May 29, 2012, 6:44 PM
[ in reply to Look at our coaches. Look at our facilities. Our campus ] |
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on the field, and it's not about the markets. People nationally find the SEC fascinating. TV picks up on the passion in their packed stadiums; even when the ACC was competitive on the field with the SEC for 10 yrs., it was a lot more fun to watch an SEC game. Put that in HD, and the advantage their way is multiplied.
Granted, win some games and things will come back our way some. But even so, the only "interesting" football destinations in the ACC, are in Clemson, Tallahassee, and Blacksburg. That's why watching Ole Miss-Miss. State is more fun than watching Wake vs. BC.
I agree with your point about not getting carried away with concern about a present unpleasantry - but the ACC will have to win BIG BIG BIG to counter the INTEREST LEVEL of the SEC. The big, public, Deep South football schools just make for better TV.
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Oculus Spirit [83263]
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CU Guru [1218]
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Exactly right.
May 29, 2012, 4:25 PM
[ in reply to The key to #1 is "at the present." ] |
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It is an arms race that we are already losing. Put us on a more level financial playing field and we will dominate the chickens again. Stay in the ACC and....well...my grandchildren will be talking about the good old days of Tommy Bowden.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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1. Swofford and the rest of the people in the Kremlin
May 29, 2012, 3:32 PM
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in Raleigh have shown over the last 5 years or so that football is not the top priority (and possibly not a top priority for the conference)-- losing the Gator Bowl and sending teams to Shreveport, Pitt and 'Cuse, ignoring ACC Heisman candidates (most egregiously CJ Spiller whereas other conferences take out ads for theirs), etc.
Football is NUMBER 1 at Clemson University and we want to be in a conference that takes it seriously. If that's the ACC then that's fine. But it will not be the ACC under Swofford's watch. He's made it known where he stands.
We have to be proactive, cover our #####, watch our backs, whatever you want to call it--but watch out for our interests. There's no loyalty if the ship is going down. FSU and Clemson see that and we're testing the waters.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: 1. Swofford and the rest of the people in the Kremlin
May 29, 2012, 3:35 PM
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not flaming you, but ACC headquarters is in Greensboro, not Raleigh. (AKA Chapel Hill west)
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Oops. Even worse...***
May 29, 2012, 4:20 PM
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Commissioner [991]
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It seems you have the fans reasoning down, how about
May 29, 2012, 3:42 PM
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what the BOT must be thinking. Given that publicly stated they would listen to another conference, what is on their minds. Obviously the fans will have some unreasonableness to their thoughts, but the BOT and others will have a clear thought process to their decision.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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They should listen to other conferences. That's a perfect
May 29, 2012, 3:46 PM
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move. I totally support flirting with other conferences. But at the end of the day, I think the ACC is the best choice for us... right now at least.
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Oculus Spirit [83263]
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110%er [6937]
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Re:True.***
May 29, 2012, 3:45 PM
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Legend [17790]
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Honesty can result in a lot of TD's on TD-Net !
May 29, 2012, 3:49 PM
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Thought-provoking summary of Big 12 motivations. Yes. Yes. Yes. And yes. All of your explanations for Clemson wanting to leave the ACC have some merit.
You could have added: 5) ACC unwillingness to redistribute bowl funds, and 6) Lost revenue from the nine-game ACC conference schedule.
When do excuses become valid reasons for leaving and vice versa? Some of the factors by themselves are valid reasons to leave, piled on top of each other there is a reasonable case for leaving the ACC.
Remember Clemson and Fla State are creating some leverage ... what we do with it will be up to the Board of Trustees and the administration. As others have stated on T-Net, I hope they use this leverage to make wise decisions.
The kicker is ... it could will take 5-10 years to know if the right decisions have been made. As you state correctly, conference affiliation is a long term decision with peaks and valleys.
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Legend [15230]
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Completely disagree. I think this a business decision based
May 29, 2012, 3:49 PM
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off of 3 things.
1. Money - especially from conference networks in the future
2. Lack of football commitment from the leadership of the ACC
3. Football soon to be controlled by super-conferences and conference officials and not the NCAA.
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Oculus Spirit [83263]
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#2 is a myth and #3 is debatable.***
May 29, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Amateur [37]
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Re: If we are honest with ourselves regarding the B12
May 29, 2012, 4:05 PM
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The one thing that people aren't talking about nearly enough is that all of the arguments for staying in the ACC is if no one moves to the Big12. If FSU agrees to go and Clemson turns down an invite, odds are Georgia Tech goes too.
All the arguments about the money being pretty close to the same, the ACC perhaps remaining relevant in college football start to get shaky at best. If the SEC takes Va Tech and NCST, per the rumors, there is no football left in this conference. We'd have what, Miami and UNC? Forget it.
If the Big12 sends Clemson an offer, it signals that things are going to be changing dramatically in this conference. And if that happens, odds are in favor of us getting screwed if we stay. Clemson's only recourse is to jump ship if FSU decides to leave and we get invited along for the ride, even though we'd lose rivalries and it makes no sense for us geographically.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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I think everyone agrees that Clemson can't be left behind.
May 29, 2012, 4:09 PM
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Everyone I have spoken to who is in favor of staying in the ACC ONLY would do so if the whole thing stayed put.
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Amateur [37]
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Ideally, yeah
May 29, 2012, 4:12 PM
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But what is the ACC going to do about it? Invite Notre Dame? They'd laugh in our face, and to be honest that is the only thing that can be done. We hate the 9 game schedule, we hated the addition of Syracuse/Pitt (which can't be undone) and there's no signs of Swofford stepping down.
If the ACC could renegotiate the deal with ESPN to get the value that the conference's footprint demands, maybe we'd have something. But I don't think there's anything that can realistically be done to keep FSU from jumping ship - so us leaving is the only option to keep Clemson football relevant.
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Trainer [31]
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It is a horrible idea to think ACC contracts
May 29, 2012, 4:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: If we are honest with ourselves regarding the B12 ] |
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will be more in the future because of markets. If that's true, the Big East would have had the best conference payouts. I don't think people realize what the money difference will be between the ACC and SEC will be once the SEC Network is started and playoff money is factored in. Potentially a gap of 20 - 30 million per year.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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That's asuming the economy stays the same and the SEC
May 29, 2012, 4:10 PM
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continues to dominate forever. While not impossible, I doubt it.
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Trainer [31]
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Re: That's asuming the economy stays the same and the SEC
May 29, 2012, 4:15 PM
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Very true on both counts. However, money breeds success. Just look at Oklahoma St once T Boone Pickens started donating. Also, the economy would work the same for both conferences, so money would decrease for both conferences but the gap would still be there.
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Hall of Famer [21648]
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That's the kicker, it would not hurt the ACC as much because
May 29, 2012, 4:18 PM
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of demographics like socioeconomic ratios and population density. The ACC would actually benefit in a relative sense. Hopefully that doesn't happen... but it could.
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Trainer [31]
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You may be right...
May 29, 2012, 4:24 PM
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however Swofford signed away the ACC for 15 more years. That's a long time to wait. I know there are two 5 year look-in's. Do you think the ACC could possibly get more $$$ if the conference is held intact? Any look-in's in contracts that I have ever seen is criteria related. In this case I would think it would be triggered by ratings increases.
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Oculus Spirit [82043]
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It will require a couple of either Clemson, FSU, VT, GT, or
May 29, 2012, 4:26 PM
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Miami to actually become dominant.
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Orange Blooded [2765]
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5. Access to one of the four playoff spots.
May 29, 2012, 4:14 PM
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This is what pushes the scale for me. We are not Duke, WF, BC. We play big boy football and deserve a shot at the NC.
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Oculus Spirit [82043]
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The access to the playoff spots is in our hands. There are
May 29, 2012, 4:15 PM
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no conference tie ins, it will be the top 4 in the BCS.
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Amateur [37]
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Re: The access to the playoff spots is in our hands. There are
May 29, 2012, 4:17 PM
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It's partially in our heads, partially not. Large part of the BCS is human voting. This past year we could have been in the top 4 had we not shat the bed, however if the ACC becomes a new version of the Big East do you think an undefeated Clemson team gets in over a one loss SEC/Big12/Pac12/Big10 team? I don't think you could say so for certain, which is a huge problem.
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Legend [18930]
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I think you are correct.
May 29, 2012, 4:34 PM
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My main concern is the logistical juggernaut the Big 12 will put on all of Clemson sports. The Big 12 cure may be worse than the ACC cold in the long run. I think John Swofford resigning would do more to help the conference right now.
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