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All-In [26968]
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Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect?
Feb 17, 2020, 7:14 AM
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Why would God command us to do something that is not possible? He wouldn't. The word "holy" means sinless perfection. Just as sinless as God is.
1 Peter 1:15-16
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Sometimes I think we use our inability to be perfect as almost like a crutch. Like, well, God doesn't expect perfection. According to the Bible, perfection is the ONLY thing he expects from us. That's why when don't meet that, we call that sin. If he expected us to disobey him, then it wouldn't be sin. Doesn't that make sense?
I'm not even close to perfect. But it's not because of some innate problem I have no control over. The reason I'm not perfect is because I don't want to be, and I don't try to be. No one has ever been perfect except for Jesus. But again, it's because everyone has chosen to sin, not because they had to sin.
Here's another way to use logic to answer the question. Is it possible for you to go the next 10 seconds without sinning? I hope you would say yes. What about the next minute? What about ten minutes? What about an hour? Is there a time at which you've just gone too far, and you have to sin? No!
One last note: this post is about Christians, not people in general. The sin nature of those who are not Christians is another topic.
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All-In [38323]
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Re: Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect?
Feb 17, 2020, 7:19 AM
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Oculus Spirit [97999]
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To be your best, perfection must be the standard
Feb 17, 2020, 7:24 AM
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Sure, you'll never reach it, which is the point. As long as you have perfection as a goal, you will work harder and get closer to it than you otherwise would do if you thought it impossible and pointless to strive for.
Jesus is essential in this respect. Sure, people can say God is perfect, but without Jesus to bring that perfection to Earth, to average people, it remains in the clouds and fewer will strive for it. But a real, living person who embodies perfection is something that can inspire people.
But no, no one can be perfect.
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All-In [26968]
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I am certain I've never gone a day without sinning.
Feb 17, 2020, 7:26 AM
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Have I ever gone an hour? Probably. What about two? I dunno...I wonder if I really focused and tried, how far I could extend my "record". That's "striving" for perfection, indeed.
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All-In [26968]
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As a Christian, not only is Jesus our inspiration...
Feb 17, 2020, 7:28 AM
[ in reply to To be your best, perfection must be the standard ] |
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He lives inside of us. If He's with us all the time, and we let Him control what we are doing, doesn't that allow perfection? It'd be Him doing it, really.
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Oculus Spirit [97999]
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We are all sinners too. God also gave us this thing called
Feb 17, 2020, 7:48 AM
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free will. You may think of it as temptation. But to think you can choose freely to let Jesus guide you...and you will achieve perfection....God doesn't make it that easy. Free will prevents us from reaching perfection. Which is why we are all sinners.
That makes the person who strives the hardest towards perfection in the face of free will and temptation, that is the person who enters heaven. If a truly perfect human appeared before God, he would know he isn't because if someone were truly perfect, God would have made him so. Which is the trouble with predestination beliefs. It takes responsibility out of the hands of the person and places it in God's hands. That is a weakness, and that person is far more prone to fall to temptation, thinking it is destiny rather than a choice. In the end that places you farther from perfection than if you choose responsibility and free will.
Just how I see things. As I'm imperfect and know it.
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All-In [26968]
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How do you address the command to
Feb 17, 2020, 7:58 AM
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"Be ye holy"? Do you believe "holy" doesn't mean perfect, or do you think this was not really an actual command?
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Oculus Spirit [97999]
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If the command means perfection, I can't. You can't.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:15 AM
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But that doesn't mean we can't try and be as Holy as possible. If the command meant be perfect, then that would assume there are perfect people, which there are not. That would lessen the importance of Jesus, and damage the effectiveness of the message.
For example, I'm on a diet. I've lost 24lbs so far. There are very strict rules (commands) on this diet. Follow the commands, and you will lose weight. But I know there will be times where I can not follow the commands. But if I think I can only lose weight if I follow every command 100%, then WHEN I cheat, which WILL HAPPEN, I would simply give up. I broke the commands of the diet. And I end up worse than if I didn't try it to begin with.
Now if I go on the diet knowing it is a guide, and not a command, I also know when I screw up I will be forgiven as long as I go right back to it and weight loss will continue. If it is a command, and not a guide, then why does God have forgiveness? I mean if he makes a command, and you break it once, and become imperfect, then you assume perfection is possible, then why have forgiveness? Why try and be good again if you have sinned once? That view is counterproductive.
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All-In [26968]
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Hmm...I see it as the opposite.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:20 AM
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If it weren't a command, why would you ever need forgiveness? Forgiveness is needed precisely because God demands perfection.
Forgiveness is the mechanism by which we can still have fellowship with God, even when we fail to meet His standard. Thank God, forgiveness is continually available to us.
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All-In [26968]
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No sinless person will ever stand before God.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:01 AM
[ in reply to We are all sinners too. God also gave us this thing called ] |
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The Bible says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
That's why I made it a point to specify that I'm talking about Christians. All Christians have sinned in the past. But what about the present, and the future? Must we sin?
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Oculus Spirit [97999]
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Yes, we must sin. If we didn't we'd all be Jesus.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:22 AM
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In fact, if you're a Protestant, then you know one of the biggest problems of the Catholic church was papal infallibility. Indulgences highlighted that error and the weakness of that belief, and in large part aided the schism and the formation of Protestant Christian religions.
You must have tasted defeat in order to appreciate victory.
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All-In [26968]
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We aren't Jesus in a literal sense, of course, but...
Feb 17, 2020, 8:29 AM
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"I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live. Yet not I, but Christ liveth in me." Galatians 2:20
"We have the mind of Christ." 1 Corinthians 2:16
"For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Philppians 1:21
If we do not sin, it is not because of some great power we have. It is because we have surrendered and let Christ - not just guide - but control or actions and thoughts. And since Christ is perfect, if he's the one in complete control, wouldn't that give us the ability to live sinlessly?
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Oculus Spirit [94302]
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Predestination is a difficult concept to comprehend.
Feb 17, 2020, 11:09 AM
[ in reply to We are all sinners too. God also gave us this thing called ] |
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I believe people, being human, view it from the human perspective only. Yet the scripture proclaims that God is all knowing and we are indeed chosen before the foundation of the world.
Ephesians 1:5 - Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Isaiah 42:9 - Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
How do we reconcile this to your view of predestination?
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Freshman [2]
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Re: As a Christian, not only is Jesus our inspiration...
Feb 17, 2020, 1:23 PM
[ in reply to As a Christian, not only is Jesus our inspiration... ] |
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No, even that doesn't allow for our "perfection". We cannot be perfect--the Bible teaches there was only one "perfect" person and that was Jesus.
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All-In [26968]
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Does the fact that no on has succeeded mean
Feb 17, 2020, 1:30 PM
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That it's not possible?
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All-In [26968]
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Heisman Winner [120299]
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No b/c the devil’s on every street corner!***
Feb 17, 2020, 7:40 AM
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect?
Feb 17, 2020, 7:46 AM
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No. That goes for everyone. Also, what is perfect?
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Oculus Spirit [97999]
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It is a myth. But it is important to believe in it in
Feb 17, 2020, 7:53 AM
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heaven because we know it won't happen on Earth. Life is a process. You achieve things, and you lose things. At the end of the day it's not what you achieved, but how you lived that counts.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: It is a myth. But it is important to believe in it in
Feb 17, 2020, 8:04 AM
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Would you sacrifice having more years for how you lived? Sometimes boring lives mean longer lives. It's a tough call
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: It is a myth. But it is important to believe in it in
Feb 17, 2020, 10:24 AM
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I've thought about this a lot. Do you think it is a coincidence that the things that bring the most temporary pleasure are bad for you?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: It is a myth. But it is important to believe in it in
Feb 17, 2020, 12:18 PM
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So maybe we are meant 5o be more temporary... What do you think?
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: It is a myth. But it is important to believe in it in
Feb 17, 2020, 1:01 PM
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I think something or someone wants us to practice discipline and self control.
A natural world that created itself doesn't need or want anything, so.....
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All-In [26968]
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Perfect means doing every single thing right.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:41 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect? ] |
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And, for a Christian, "right" is defined by what God commands.
So, for a Christian, "perfect" means doing every single thing exactly as God commands.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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Even God couldn't do that.
Feb 17, 2020, 1:50 PM
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He made man.
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All-In [26968]
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Don't want to stray too far off topic, but
Feb 17, 2020, 1:53 PM
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the Bible teaches that God is holy, which means sinlessly perfect. His creation of man does not nullify that. Man chose to sin...God didn't make Him sinful. He loved man so much, He made them special, with the ability to choose their path. It's amazing to think about.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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If God didn't make man with a propensity for sin
Feb 17, 2020, 1:56 PM
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then man couldn't have sinned. Whose fault was it that man had that inclination?
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All-In [26968]
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See new thread I'm starting.
Feb 17, 2020, 1:59 PM
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Sorry, didn't want to derail this one.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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Don't worry about it.
Feb 17, 2020, 2:09 PM
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Sometimes I start with stuff and just keep typing, even though I've said twice I'd stop, and haven't.
I apologize for derailing your thread. It wasn't my intent.
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Oculus Spirit [94302]
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Christ did His best.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:16 AM
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That's what God expects of me. I can't speak for others though I often try to speak to others. This is one of those times.
Our problem, yours and mine is that as God shines His glorious light in our souls new facets of our humanity are revealed. Sometimes when this happens and I see more of myself by looking deeper and more closely into my soul I try to sweep that particular corner. When God gets what He wants from me He does the cleaning.
One of those two examples works the way God wants it to, the other swells my pride which is sometimes the most cumbersome for me to recognize and confess. I am proud to say I know this, right? Fortunately God has a way of dealing with that too. His plan for dealing with each of us is customized, fit for one.
Just when I think I have it all figured out He snaps me back to the reality that I am but a sinner saved by Grace through faith in the Blood of His Son. That's all I am, all I will ever be but I can strive to be Holy just as did Christ. In that manner and that manner only am I Christlike.
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All-In [26968]
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"God expects me to do my best"
Feb 17, 2020, 8:22 AM
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Sounds nice, but is it Bible?
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Oculus Spirit [94302]
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Let's say I don't know.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:43 AM
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2 Tim 4
"7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."
What was Paul's good fight? What was his course?
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All-In [26968]
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Maybe he answers that to the Philippians
Feb 17, 2020, 8:48 AM
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Certainly the idea of a race/course is there.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
When he said he fought a good fight, and finished his course, and kept the faith, I believe it means in the end, he did what God asked him to do. He didn't dwell on the terrible things he did before "forgetting those things behind", but he was always moving forward, trying to win more souls for Jesus, until the very end.
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All-In [26968]
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Sorry, I'll be away from my computer for most of the day.
Feb 17, 2020, 8:49 AM
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Probably shouldn't have started the thread in that case, but I had forgotten. I look forward to seeing thoughts of many others later. This has been really enjoyable and edifying to me so far.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect?
Feb 17, 2020, 9:33 AM
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Jesus summed the Old Testament law up like this: "Love God, Love your neighbor." I think if Christians stop focusing on not doing certain things, and focus on doing those things, everything will take care of itself. Not that we will ever be morally perfect every second of every day, that is impossible in a fallen world. But when we do fail, I think we would find that our focus has fallen from God and his purpose for us. As Paul said in Colossians, "keep your mind on things above, where Christ is, not on earthly things."
I think a good analogy is golf. If you play, you've faced plenty of shots over water. And every avid golfer knows, if you think about hitting it in the water, 9 times out of 10 that's exactly where it's going. If we obsess over not doing this and not doing that as Christians, we lose focus of the gospel, and we minimize what Jesus did on the cross.
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All-In [26968]
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Directly the words of Jesus:
Feb 17, 2020, 11:48 AM
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"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: Directly the words of Jesus:
Feb 17, 2020, 12:23 PM
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In the movie Remember the Titans the coach tells the team "we will be perfect in every aspect of the game". Does that mean they would never have a penalty or miss an assignment? Did he expect that? No.
Jesus was calling his listeners in that passage to strive for a higher standard than the law required. If you are angry with someone you've committed murder. If you lust after a woman who is not your wife you've committed adultery.
All of the Old Testament figures of faith-Abraham, Moses, David, etc. committed sins after they were called by God. David killed Goliath long before he committed adultery with Bathsheba.
And Paul definitely assumes that we will sin....
Hebrews 12:4-11:
In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says,
“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”
Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.
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All-In [26968]
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Every single person, ever, has sinned.
Feb 17, 2020, 12:26 PM
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Every single Christian, ever, sins after they become Christians. I would venture to say almost all Christians sin every single day. This isn't about what we should expect. It's about what God's standard is. The standard is perfection.
The great thing is, when I sin daily, hourly, or minutely, as long as I'm confess it, He is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse. And from that point, I am perfect once again. Until the next sin...
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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I knew a girl who believed that.
Feb 17, 2020, 1:53 PM
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So she took it as her opportunity to treat everyone like chit. She felt she was already saved, so it didn't matter.
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible teaches that that person was never saved.
Feb 17, 2020, 1:56 PM
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A true Christian will treat people with love because they are saved.
"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid." Romans 6:15
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." 2 Corinthians 5:17
"As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." 1 Peter 2:16
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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Just telling you her reasons.
Feb 17, 2020, 2:08 PM
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In the end, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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This is all so much baggage to be carrying around.
Feb 17, 2020, 11:05 AM
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I don't know how, or why, you people do it.
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All-In [26968]
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There is no greater liberty than that we have in Christ.
Feb 17, 2020, 11:49 AM
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To know that we have eternal life in heaven is the opposite of "carrying baggage".
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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Thats the definition of faith, I suppose.***
Feb 17, 2020, 11:53 AM
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: This is all so much baggage to be carrying around.
Feb 17, 2020, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to This is all so much baggage to be carrying around. ] |
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The message of the gospel is actually the opposite. The baggage is gone once you give your life to Christ.
You are living proof of the failure of the church to communicate that message. Sadly, I would say at least half of the people attending church every Sunday don't understand that.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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I've made my own personal resolution to no longer get
Feb 17, 2020, 12:26 PM
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into religious discussions. No one's mind gets changed, and nothing positive comes from it.
I'm sorry I posted anything, really.
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All-In [26968]
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This thread is nothing but positive.
Feb 17, 2020, 12:27 PM
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It's been tremendously good.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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maybe, but noone has really questioned the whole idea of the
Feb 17, 2020, 1:35 PM
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premise of the discussion, at least until I did. That's when it gets contentious...and pointless.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: maybe, but noone has really questioned the whole idea of the
Feb 17, 2020, 1:42 PM
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I would welcome that discussion and it is certainly not pointless. Give me your best reason for why Christianity is false. .
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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What is the point?
Feb 17, 2020, 1:44 PM
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Whose mind will be changed?
I've been here and seen this all before.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: What is the point?
Feb 17, 2020, 1:57 PM
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If we’re all going to quit arguing they may as well shut tigernet down.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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I think there are valid discussions that may make others
Feb 17, 2020, 2:13 PM
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see viewpoints that they haven't thought of before. This current thread may be one of those, at least until I started ######## all over it.
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All-In [26968]
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All-In [26968]
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: I've made my own personal resolution to no longer get
Feb 17, 2020, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to I've made my own personal resolution to no longer get ] |
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True, but that's the case with discussions on just about everything. Nobody likes to admit they were wrong, but more often than not I think a misunderstanding of what the Bible actually teaches is to blame for people refusing to even give it a chance.
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Oculus Spirit [81475]
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How can you possibly prove someone wrong about faith
Feb 17, 2020, 1:33 PM
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and biblical stories?
Obviously, logic won't work.
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All-In [26968]
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This thread was designed for people
Feb 17, 2020, 1:50 PM
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who are Christians. Non-Christians will not fully understand the content here.
Debates about the truth of Christianity are fine, but not apropos to this discussion.
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All-Conference [404]
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Re: How can you possibly prove someone wrong about faith
Feb 17, 2020, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to How can you possibly prove someone wrong about faith ] |
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If you proved that key figures or events that the Bible describes never existed or happened. Unfortunately for skeptics archaeology continues to corroborate it.
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110%er [9092]
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yes, one day***
Feb 17, 2020, 2:21 PM
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Is it possible for a Christian to be perfect?
Feb 17, 2020, 5:18 PM
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Nope
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