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Commissioner [981]
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If resurrections were normal ocurances,
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Feb 19, 2024, 8:45 AM
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do you think more people would accept Jesus'?
For example, If just last month, I heard of 5 resurrections and saw 1 for myself. Do you think that I would be more likely to accept Jesus' resurrection?
I think the answers here might answer a big question for me.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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As it is, the whole thing about whether or not people accept Jesus
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:06 AM
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comes down entirely, without exception, to accepting (or not) what other people tell you about Jesus. Barring of course, some personal supernatural experience.
Anyone who saw Jesus crucified, knew that he was in fact dead, and then saw him walk out of the tomb 3 days later, would have good cause to "accept" him. However, if resurrections were a common occurrence, Jesus's resurrection would not be any kind of sign that he was anything special, so no, it would have little bearing on whether or not people accepted him.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: As it is, the whole thing about whether or not people accept Jesus
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:43 AM
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dang it, I just realized I messed up my question.
It was supposed to be, accepted he resurrected, not accept Jesus
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:48 AM
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People would easily accept that Jesus resurrected if it was a common occurrence. The significance of his resurrection of course, is that that there are no confirmed, verifiable cases of a resurrection in human history.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:49 AM
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Exactly, I'm curious why people don't understand this very simple point.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I'm not sure what you mean.***
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:13 AM
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: I'm not sure what you mean.***
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:44 AM
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That’s because you’re not confused 
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CU Medallion [58448]
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But I AM confused by your question, because I'm not sure what your
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:52 AM
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point is. I mean, of course people would be more likely to believe Jesus rose from the dead if people rising from the dead was a common occurrence. So, what is your point?
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: But I AM confused by your question, because I'm not sure what your
Feb 19, 2024, 12:02 PM
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>I mean, of course people would be more likely to believe Jesus rose from the dead if people rising from the dead was a common occurrence. So, what is your point?
The point is that, when put this way, it's obvious, to everyone on this board, that historical claims about things that we know happen are obvious and thus easy to believe. CUIntulsa even agrees "If supernatural things were occurring every day, of course people would believe them more easily", making it sound like an obvious question with an obvious answer, that's because he's right, it is!
And yet, when presented the other way: You should believe a resurrection, even though we have no evidence for resurrections happening anywhere ever, suddenly it's not so obvious to them that it should be hard to believe. In fact, that think you deserve enteral punishment for not believing it.
That logic gets lost HARD on this board. You can't on one hand admit that something is hard to believe and then turn around and say that person is not only wrong but deserves eternal punishment for not believing it.
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Legend [17918]
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If resurrections were a common thing
Feb 19, 2024, 12:19 PM
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you wouldn't need to have faith in Jesus.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: If resurrections were a common thing
Feb 19, 2024, 12:22 PM
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Right, this is the point I'm talking about, though: it requires faith (i.e. belief without evidence) because it is by definition an unlikely thing.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Of course it requires faith in something we did not witness or can't prove or
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:28 PM
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know with certainty. Water is wet. You don't need to make an argument for that.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Of course it requires faith in something we did not witness or can't prove or
Feb 19, 2024, 1:41 PM
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Never mind then, seems you are confused
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I really am.
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Feb 19, 2024, 2:29 PM
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You said: "Right, this is the point I'm talking about, though: it requires faith (i.e. belief without evidence) because it is by definition an unlikely thing.
And I agreed with your point, but that it's a point that doesn't need to be argued (I don't think) because it's obvious and accepted that belief in the resurrection requires a tremendous amount of faith, and I don't think anybody is arguing otherwise.
What am I missing?
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: I really am.
Feb 19, 2024, 2:54 PM
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It's ok, you're not the target audience.
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Orange Blooded [3074]
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Re: If resurrections were a common thing
Feb 21, 2024, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: If resurrections were a common thing ] |
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If Jesus' resurrection actually happened and for the reasons the New Testament explains, why would anyone expect there to be any other resurrection?
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: If resurrections were a common thing
Feb 21, 2024, 8:13 PM
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They wouldn't, that's not the point of my original question.
I was trying to point out the that if it would be an easy/obvious thing to believe if it were a normal occurrence, then the opposite is also true.
The latter gets a lot of pushback on this board even though pretty much everyone agrees with the former.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: Then the answer is yes. ] |
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You seem to be creating a conflict that doesn't exist. If supernatural things were occurring every day, of course people would believe them more easily. Who is it you think doesnt understand that?
The question is whether the one you refer to occurred. Everyone is granted the right to make their eternal decision about that.
We already know you are an atheist. You've made that choice. No one is telling you not to, no one is not understanding. Relax.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:39 AM
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> You seem to be creating a conflict that doesn't exist. If supernatural things were occurring every day, of course people would believe them more easily. Who is it you think doesnt understand that?
You. You are the one not understanding when you take this to its logical conclusion when applied to the resurrection.
You can’t make the statement you just did and then turn around and say that the resurrection is most likely what happened.
If you believe what you just said then you would also agree that the resurrection is hard to believe yet you claim it’s a punishable offense not to believe it.
>We already know you are an atheist. You've made that choice. No one is telling you not to, no one is not understanding. Relax.
It’s just a question on a forum, calm down a bit gramps
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 10:48 AM
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 Fine. I think people should live in the understanding that everyone makes their own decisions. Carry on with whatever conflicts you enjoy.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 11:13 AM
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You like to conflate decisions with knowledge. That is something you have a conflict with, not me.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 11:32 AM
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Willful ignorance seems to be the majority stance. I'll grant you that.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
Feb 19, 2024, 12:03 PM
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100%, it's the only way religion exists.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
Feb 19, 2024, 12:58 PM
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'So's you're momma'? Really? Okay.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
Feb 19, 2024, 1:43 PM
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Bro I’m responding to a “ your momma “ you just did ya hypocrite
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CU Medallion [58448]
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We can find what we believe to be evidence for the resurrection,
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Feb 19, 2024, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: Then the answer is yes. ] |
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but it ultimately comes down entirely to faith, that is believing something that we can't "prove", or something that we did not personally witness. It can't be proven one way or the other. I think it's a fascinating topic, and I love the debate, but I know for a fact that good, highly intelligent people disagree on this and no matter how certain one is that they are right (and therefore, somebody else is wrong), there's no way to prove it either way, so we have to accept that people aren't necessarily wrong if their experience leads them to an opinion that is different from our own.
ADD: Some people can not, and will not accept that uncertainty, or that they may be wrong and someone else right. Their psyche or their ego can't handle it.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: We can find what we believe to be evidence for the resurrection,
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Feb 19, 2024, 11:55 AM
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“It’s about faith” like I said seems to be a later development in Christianity.
Jesus talked about faith yes, but it was always based on fact, not just blind faith.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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The resurrection has always been based on faith, except for the very few
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:22 PM
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who saw and spoke with Jesus afterward. Every other person is taking someone else's word for it.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: The resurrection has always been based on faith, except for the very few
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:31 PM
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He appeared to 500 people supposedly, and then gave power to perform miracles through the Holy Spirit to the apostles.
Nobody in the Bible relied on faith alone.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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There were a LOT more than 500 people around at that time who did not witness
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:37 PM
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the resurrection or see or talk to Jesus afterward. They relied 100% on faith, as has everyone since.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: There were a LOT more than 500 people around at that time who did not witness
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:44 PM
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I’m not saying no one relies on faith, but nobody in the Bible relied strictly on faith. Jesus said signs would accompany them.
What happened to the signs?
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CU Medallion [58448]
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And I'm not saying that you are saying that no one relies on faith.
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:56 PM
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You are arguing against something I have not claimed, so I don't know what your point is, or what your argument is with me. I am only saying that belief in the resurrection of Jesus is entirley, 100% a matter of faith outside of those who personally witnessed the resurrection, or saw or talked to Jesus afterward. Even then, some degree of faith is required.
I have no idea about any signs.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: And I'm not saying that you are saying that no one relies on faith.
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Feb 19, 2024, 6:05 PM
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"but it ultimately comes down entirely to faith, that is believing something that we can't "prove"
I guess I took this statement as advocating for the idea that "if you had proof you wouldn't need faith".
I was just commenting to that idea that literally everybody in the bible was shown proof, and faith followed.
"I have no idea about any signs"
What's interesting about the passages below is the excerpt from Mark is part of a passage that was not original, it was a later addition. Could it have been added to make it sound like Jesus predicted that the apostles would perform signs?
Anyway, if there were signs, why have they stopped?
Mark 16:17-20
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Acts 5:12-16
Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon's Portico. None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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The less proof or solid evidence you have, the more faith you must have.
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Feb 19, 2024, 8:40 PM
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That's all I am saying. Of course if you witness a miraculouas event, the only faith you need is faith that you actually saw what you thought you saw. If your mother or best friend tells you they saw something miraculous, you would need a lot more faith. If you lived during the days of and following the resurrection, did not witness it, but someone who claimed they saw and spoke to Jesus after he had died on the cross came to your town and told everyone about it, your belief would be based 100% on faith.
So yes, if we believe the story, relatively few people had "proof", and everybody since has based their belief entirely on faith, and in that sense, faith followed proof. Again, in no way do I argue otherwise.
As far as signs go, I don't know about these particular passages, but I do believe that a lot of things were added and taken out and rewritten throughout the years to tell the stories in a certain way, creating an evolving narrative over time.
My only real point, the whole time, going back to my original post in this thread, is that belief that the resurrection actually occurred requires a tremendous amount of faith, since it would have been a truly miraculous event witnessed by relatively few people 2000 years ago. While I thoroughly enjoy these threads, I'm at a loss how such a simple, straightforward idea turned into a lengthy back and forth.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: The less proof or solid evidence you have, the more faith you must have.
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Feb 19, 2024, 9:44 PM
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“If you lived during the days of and following the resurrection, did not witness it, but someone who claimed they saw and spoke to Jesus after he had died on the cross came to your town and told everyone about it, your belief would be based 100% on faith.”
I think there can be other kinds of proof though, like say a healing.
That is supposedly what Jesus gave the apostles the ability to do to show people it was real. The Bible literally says that signs would accompany them.
So it’s not just whether you have faith in the resurrection or not. In the Bible proof was given. It was Jesus rose from the dead and he gave me the power to heal your sick mother. Bam, a new believer and why not?
If a pastor could walk in and cure cancer everyone would believe.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I think "faith healers" like Benny Hinn and Ernest Angley convinced a ton
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Feb 20, 2024, 12:15 AM
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of people. No doubt such healings that could be verified by legit doctors would convince a lot more people. So, if your point is, why did God stop empowering people to perform such healings in his name? Good question, and I have no idea.
So it’s not just whether you have faith in the resurrection or not. In the Bible proof was given. It was Jesus rose from the dead and he gave me the power to heal your sick mother. Bam, a new believer and why not?
So you say. All based on the assumption that it really happened, which requires tremendous faith on your part.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: I think "faith healers" like Benny Hinn and Ernest Angley convinced a ton
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Feb 20, 2024, 10:10 AM
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Fun conversation. There does not seem to be a theology on this, that God/Jesus does this or that. If you don't mind me joining, I will propose two observations:
1. Jesus didn't heal everyone, or feed everyone. Few, actually. It seems that most people who met him never saw a miracle. He obviously refused to do them when demanded (same as now). When he did do them, there seemed to be a purpose, often not related to the person being fed or healed.
2. I have witnessed only one. There is a second one I would put in that same credibility category, but I wasn't actually there. In the first, a friend (Dan) was diagnosed with severe heart blockage, was sent directly to hospital, did not first go home. Surgery was scheduled for the next morning. A mutual friend is a radiologist (Pat, he's the one who called me), so we went to the hospital to see him (this is a shortened version, took all afternoon, and the next morning). Pat asked to see the images, said yep, you're in trouble. As we left the room Pat said a short prayer, simply asking Jesus for healing and to give wisdom to the surgeons. Fine. Pat and I went back to the hospital the next morning, we see Dan in the lobby. What tha ...? Dan says, I'm fine. Pat tracks down the surgeon, who says he took additional pre-op images, found nothing wrong. Pat looked at the images. Yep, you're fine. Dan's like, what happened. Pat said, "Is it possible that this was Jesus showing you that what you have been shown, but are not accepting, is true? And is it possible that there will not be another last minute reprieve?" Dan is Jewish, very active in the synagog, etc. Pat and Dan had been friends for years, and they had had many discussions about the nature and identity of the Messiah. Dan obviously held onto the traditional Jewish view that Jesus was not him. Dan's response was, "Obviously so", and became a follow of Jesus in the lobby of the hospital.
Yes, there is a natural explanation: Maybe the first image was a mistake, an image got put in the wrong file, in which case I pity the other guy, and I assume this caused a check of files. Pat the radiologist said, "No way". And it was typical symptoms that had him at the cardiologist in the first place: this was not a new thing.
The other question is, "Why then?" I've known dozens of sick people, have said that same prayer (all answered in some way), but that sort of miracle is unique, so why?
All I can say is that there is not a formula. I think I know why God did that, but only he knows. I am almost certain that in a similar situation I would not be healed like that. The second one applies to those who have not yet heard about Jesus.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I have a friend who had stage 4 cancer.
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Feb 20, 2024, 10:48 AM
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She had already had one round of chemo and radiation a year or two prior, which of course was brutal, but the cancer came back with a vengence. She was contemplating what to do, and really did not want to go through that treatment again. A friend talked to her about seeing a shaman in South America who does healing ceremonies involving Ayahausca, a psychedelic brew made from plants native to the area. Having nothing to lose, she gave it a try. I don't know the exact timeline, but a short time after getting back to the states, she saw her doctors and the cancer was completely gone. That was about 6 or 7 years ago, and still healthy and cancer free. She still goes back about once a year to see the shaman.
In my eyes, that's a miracle. I can only speculate as to how and why it happened, but I really feel there is a spiritual component. Just my feeling, my opinion, my belief. There is so much we don't know or understand with any certainty.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: I have a friend who had stage 4 cancer.
Feb 20, 2024, 10:50 AM
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I need to get me some of those plants.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: It's controversial, but was profound and life-changing for my friend
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Feb 20, 2024, 12:49 PM
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Agreed. You've probably seen the pie chart analogy. Picture a white pie chart, with about a 16th of it colored in blue. Another 16th is colored red. The blue is what we know. The red is what we don't know. The white is what we don't know that we don't know. Most of our efforts are spent trying to turn the red to blue, with the rest spend arguing about what is in the blue.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I have not seen it, but that sounds pretty accurate!***
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Feb 20, 2024, 1:09 PM
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: I have a friend who had stage 4 cancer.
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Feb 20, 2024, 12:00 PM
[ in reply to I have a friend who had stage 4 cancer. ] |
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That's the thing, miracles are claimed by many religions/people. Are they actually happening? Maybe. Do they appear exclusive to a particular religion? Don't appear to be.
I agree with you that if there is a spiritual component, any one religion doesn't appear to have a monopoly on it.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 11:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Then the answer is yes. ] |
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“ Everyone is granted the right to make their eternal decision about that”
This is another one of those points I was talking about in the other thread.
“Whosever believes in him”
This can be interpreted to mean so many different things.
Believe what exactly?
Jesus repeatedly said keep the commandments and give to the poor when teaching about eternity.
Salvation by faith was a later church doctrine, not a teaching of Jesus.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: Then the answer is yes.
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Feb 19, 2024, 12:47 PM
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Yes it is interpreted many ways. However, I do not agree that salvation by faith is something Jesus didnt discuss. This would be another thread, but one example is his conversation with Nic. Nic was a teacher/keeper of the Law, and as one not opposing Jesus he understood the underlying themes of loving God and man: Nic had sought out Jesus for this conversation, after all. Rather than getting a discussion about loving others, Jesus cut him off with "You must be born again." That is a wild statement that cant be reduced to, "Go help the poor and you're good."
What does a comment like that mean? Jesus discusses this in several places, ending in Rev 3:20, as clear a description as any, at least to me. Take all the letters out of the NT, and the surrender of oneself to Jesus in response to an atoning sacrifice remains the central message. That is the act of faith, which as you said, is based on the fact of who Jesus is.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: If resurrections were normal ocurances,
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Feb 19, 2024, 4:02 PM
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In Jesus Earthly ministry, some who saw the miracles believed and some did not. It would be the same today.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: If resurrections were normal ocurances,
Feb 19, 2024, 4:14 PM
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You think miracles being a common thing would have no effect on people believing the biblical claims of miracles? That's what I'm asking.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Re: If resurrections were normal ocurances,
1
Feb 19, 2024, 6:03 PM
[ in reply to Re: If resurrections were normal ocurances, ] |
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Good point. Many saw the miracles happen without then believing what he said about himself. That wont change. If he showed up again today under the same circumstances, we would crucify him all over again, for the same reasons.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: If resurrections were normal ocurances,
Feb 19, 2024, 6:13 PM
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>Many saw the miracles happen
I mean, again, we have claims that miracles happened. Literary evidence only. That's it.
You believe a small subset of them (Christian mythology) but you do not buy the miracles claims for others, like Caesar or Romulus.
So there is definitely a bias an inconsistency going on, it's just not from my side.
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Oculus Spirit [93687]
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Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is different than believing He is God's Son.
Feb 23, 2024, 6:39 PM
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James 2: "19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
So NO! When Israel left Egypt many of those occupying the land God promised them believe He was real. Satan, who served God until he didn't certainly believes.
Churches are filled with people who have head knowledge of God and know that Jesus is Him only Son. Yet, they are as lost as a blind goose in a snowstorm.
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Commissioner [981]
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Re: Accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior is different than believing He is God's Son.
Feb 23, 2024, 9:05 PM
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>For example, If just last month, I heard of 5 resurrections and saw 1 for myself. Do you think that I would be more likely to accept Jesus' resurrection?
Just to clarify, your answer to this is "no"?
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