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Hall of Famer [22376]
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Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 7, 2023, 11:24 PM
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We hear the battle cry when it comes to Michigan. Why penalize the players? They didn't do anything wrong.
But, in another thread someone asked about James Madison not being bowl eligible because they have moved from FCS to FBS.
Why penalize the players? They didn't do anything wrong.
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All-American [560]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 1:36 AM
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What about the OSU players? They go (2–4) in the Covid year then suddenly for the next 2 yrs: 23-1 regular season, 2 CFP appearances, and suddenly beating their rival consecutively by an average margin of victory (18.5). UM had beaten OSU twice in the last 25 years before Harbaugh became a clairvoyant. The UM players were most likely aware of it; to feel otherwise is a bit naive. UM players shared in the spoils while being knowingly aware of the elaborate signal theft operations: they had a cheat sheet handed to them 2 days before their weekly game exam.
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All-In [30851]
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I'm fine with UM stealing OSU signs***
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Nov 8, 2023, 5:48 AM
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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The method they used is irrelevant?
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Nov 8, 2023, 6:30 AM
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If they used methods that are against NCAA rules, would you still be fine with it?
What if the coots managed to ack into Clemson's headset electronics and hear what the coaches were saying to each other during the game so they knew everything the coaches were saying and that is how they stole the signs? Would you be fine with that?
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110%er [5014]
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Exactly. It is the extent to which they went to do it.
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:17 AM
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That made this go from just stealing signals to espionage level hacking/stealing. I mean a guy sneaks into stadiums in disguise , gets on the sideline (and gets others to go to games too) to record the other team’s sideline for the express purpose of systematically stealing their signals. That is clearly against the rules and if everyone did it, it would make a mockery out of the sport. This level of cheating is on the same level as throwing games on purpose to win $$ o get paid off by others who win $. It totally distorts the integrity of the game.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Exactly. It is the extent to which they went to do it.
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:45 AM
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So if they stand on their own sideline and steal a signal it is ok?
If they watch video of the opponents games over and over to find what ever they can that’s ok?
Go to the opponents game when you are not playing them and figure out the sign that’s worthy of the death penalty?
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CU Medallion [53829]
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It is a rule. They knew the rule. They broke the rule. End of story. If they
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Nov 8, 2023, 11:48 AM
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change the rule, then fine. I mean,back in the day, you could tackle a guy by grabbing the collar of his shoulder pad...
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Rock Defender [54]
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This changed my mind.
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Nov 8, 2023, 1:03 PM
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Thank you for the brevity and clarity.
And I'm not being sarcastic.
I've been breezing by thinking "Eh, if Michigan weren't having such a huge year, this'd be a non-issue. It's an Ohio-generated scandal and they're splitting hairs on the what, who, how."
However, if Harbaugh knew it was going on, he should answer for it. If he knew it was going on and even facilitated some of it, he should be immediately made free to seek other employment.
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All-American [560]
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Tantamount to an...
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Nov 11, 2023, 7:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Exactly. It is the extent to which they went to do it. ] |
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Admission of you being mentally challenged...I applauded your courage to admit your borderline brain function. But in the future, I'd advise you and your other dim-witted ilk to limit your board convos to the ' T@rd forum'. Thx dunces
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110%er [9032]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
Nov 8, 2023, 7:45 AM
[ in reply to The method they used is irrelevant? ] |
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What if Dabos head set all of a sudden went dead when at a crucial moment in a competitors stadium? Could happen....
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Orange Blooded [2984]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
Nov 8, 2023, 8:01 AM
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Fairly certain that did happen against NCST a couple years ago. Maybe it was another team, but I’m just saying NCST because that seems like something they would’ve done.
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110%er [6089]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
Nov 8, 2023, 10:03 AM
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Yeah I think it was nc state.
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Orange Blooded [4713]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
Nov 8, 2023, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to The method they used is irrelevant? ] |
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It wouldn't matter Bret. For the past 3 years, every defense seems to know what play Clemson will run before it is run.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
Nov 8, 2023, 11:25 PM
[ in reply to The method they used is irrelevant? ] |
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Well I don’t like straw men. Are you saying that Michigan is hacking into the opponents head sets?
As far as I know they have not been accused of that!
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All-American [560]
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Re: The method they used is irrelevant?
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Nov 11, 2023, 7:51 AM
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You need a teachers aide when you serf...nobody has the time to explain: 2+2=4, the sky is blue, etcetera. And we d@mn sure don't have the time to understand it for you! Now back in your crib...and please have ya mama change that nasty @$$ diaper.. you ephing stink..
barf!!
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All-American [560]
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Freshman [-79]
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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I think he meant to say, "Mich was 2-4 in the covid year!"***
Nov 11, 2023, 7:28 AM
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Orange Blooded [2020]
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Because there are players
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Nov 8, 2023, 5:26 AM
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On camera that show they were complicit with the cheating and down right enjoyed it
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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So you are making my point.
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Nov 8, 2023, 6:31 AM
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The Michigan players were "more guilty" than the JMU players. But, the JMU players are the ones being punished.
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110%er [5014]
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Yep. Hypocrisy 101***
Nov 8, 2023, 7:18 AM
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All-In [30841]
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nope. totally different scenarios.
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:57 AM
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Michigan broke rules
JM is following the rules. There are procedures in place when jumping divisions.
The NCAA has postseason bans for teams that move up divisions or classifications as a deterrent from allowing too many teams to move up.
JMU can go to a bowl IF there aren’t enough 6-6 teams. The same goes for 7-3 Jacksonville State.
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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Yep. The NCAA has a rule that...
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Nov 8, 2023, 9:41 AM
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...penalizes players if the team moves from FCS to FBS.
(That is my point. Folks are saying, "Don't penalize players. It isn't fair." Well, it's OK to penalize players when they did nothing wrong sometimes, but other times it isn't.)
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All-In [30841]
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again.. 2 different scenarios.
Nov 8, 2023, 11:05 AM
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JMU announced they were moving two years ago. JM is NOT being punished. Their players are not being punished. They are following the rules they KNEW about. It's harder for me to pee now a days than to transfer so They had options . This is NOT punishment, it's just accountability for their decisions.
Michigan players may be punished so i'll answer your, "that isn't fair" question. The answer is as old as question, " Life isn't fair." You put your trust into the wrong people and you got screwed. My 401K is a good example.
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All-TigerNet [10906]
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Orange Blooded [2020]
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110%er [8003]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 5:49 AM
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It’s the team concept which means you take the good with the bad. In the era of participation trophies, it’s not uncommon for some to want players shielded but the result is they learn nothing from the experience.
I am not sure if stealing signs had much to do with beating Ohio but guess it’s as good of an excuse as any.
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CU Medallion [52463]
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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That statement is typical of the NCAA.
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Nov 8, 2023, 6:34 AM
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It ranks up there with, "There was no evidence directing connecting O. J. with the blood on the driveway at his house."
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CU Medallion [52463]
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Re: That statement is typical of the NCAA.
Nov 8, 2023, 7:06 AM
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Exactly!
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: That statement is typical of the NCAA.
Nov 8, 2023, 7:47 AM
[ in reply to That statement is typical of the NCAA. ] |
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I watched that entire trial!
“ if it don’t fit you must acquit “!
I never did think they had enough to convict OJ.
That ice cream was not melted!
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:03 AM
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What exactly are they accuse of doing?
Stealing signs?
If they did not steal play books or hack into headsets or computers why is that cheating?
Get some better signs!!!
( if you figure out a tell tell sign from a qb is that cheating?
I don’t have enough information to form an honest opinion. I await your help.
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CU Medallion [52463]
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CU Guru [1071]
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CU Guru [1071]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities. ] |
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What exactly are they accuse of doing?
Stealing signs?
If they did not steal play books or hack into headsets or computers why is that cheating?
Get some better signs!!!
( if you figure out a tell tell sign from a qb is that cheating?
I don’t have enough information to form an honest opinion. I await your help.
Do you have any standards of right and wrong? This is a violation of the rules and you are trying to justify it
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 9:07 AM
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I have a lot of standards of right and wrong!
What I did not have was a knowledge of what they were being accused of so I asked!
Do you just like to jump on people and talk down to them or do you not understand when a question is being asked?
I said what exactly are they being accused of.
Now that I have a little more information but not much I will say it sounds like much to do about not much!
NCAA football did away with all their integrity on their on whith the NIL ( no Rules) transfer portal ( make up the rules to suit your need)
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All-American [560]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 8:16 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities. ] |
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You're the typical Amercan voter minus your honesty–which is why people should be encouraged NOT to vote, to stay the EPH home but also why one side campaigns for: this mass of brainless zombies to vote or die, no voter ID, welcomes the illegal detritus that pours over the southern border daily and encourages casting multiple ballots or the attempt of it—
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:42 AM
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I am not sure if you were responding to me or not and I really do not know what you were saying in that incoherent statement. But I can assure you you do not have any idea of how I vote or what my views are. But I will tell you they are extremely conservative!
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Legend [19610]
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While I actually agree with your point,...
Nov 8, 2023, 7:16 AM
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the players at James Madison were aware that it was agreed there would be no bowl when it happened. Some may have signed with JMU because they wanted to play in a true playoff format(and now can't) but they all had opportunity to either not commit or transfer.
Whereas the Michigan players can claim ignorance of the sign-stealing.
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Legend [16378]
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Germans, but what about the players on the team that gets edged out by cheaters?
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:18 AM
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If Micheatgan gets a bowl bid, that means an entire team of players and coaches will get bumped out of that slot and into lower bowl prospects. It’s the interests of those players that directly suffer most from a decision to include Micheatgan in the postseason.
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110%er [5014]
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Good point too^^^^***
Nov 8, 2023, 7:22 AM
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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I have made that point in another thread. Thanks.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:46 AM
[ in reply to Germans, but what about the players on the team that gets edged out by cheaters? ] |
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Thanks for reiterating it.
If Michigan gets into the playoffs that means the players on the team that finished 5th get penalized. If Michigan misses the playoffs but gets invited to a bowl, that means the players on the team that didn't get invited get penalized.
Players will get penalized. It is just a matter of which players.
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110%er [9034]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 7:35 AM
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when they beat osu, fsu, and leghumpers
all is forgiven
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110%er [9188]
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I dont think this whole thing is a big deal
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Nov 8, 2023, 7:38 AM
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I don’t think there is anything wrong with sign stealing. That said, this whole situation was outed by a former player so they players (at least some) are in on it as well and not some rogue coach.
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CU Medallion [64593]
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It's not just a matter of stealing signs...
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Nov 8, 2023, 8:19 AM
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which, by the way, is impermissible per NCAA rules, Michigan also scouted future opponents which is also a major NCAA rules violation, and anyone who doesn't think that gave Michigan an unfair competitive advantage is lying to themselves. Just look at Michigan's record prior to the sign stealing and scouting. It's no coincidence that their record improved after they started cheating.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: It's not just a matter of stealing signs...
Nov 8, 2023, 9:47 AM
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OK I understand there is a rule prohibiting scouting opponents ( I guess) . But if you cant scout opponents then why are they allowed to watch film? It seems to me you can learn much more from the film or the tape or whatever technology is being used than by seeing something live.
When was the rule written? Do you think the rule should be updated?
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: It's not just a matter of stealing signs...
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Nov 8, 2023, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to It's not just a matter of stealing signs... ] |
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What rule prohibits sign stealing?
What rule prohibits scouting a team?
( off campus scouting)
This is at best am antiquated rule .
Teams watch film of opponents every single day and coaches would be fired if they did not.
Seems to me people don’t like Harbaugh and they are looking for an excuse to pile on..
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CU Medallion [64593]
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NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1...
Nov 8, 2023, 12:23 PM
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which states that off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents is prohibited. While sign stealing is not prohibited under NCAA rules per se, teams cannot scout future opponents in-person or use electronic devices to transmit data (i.e., defensive and offensive signals).
The allegations against Michigan are a bit more complex than that because they no only sent someone to sit in the stand or on the sidelines and record the games, they also allegedly paid someone to conduct those scouting activities.
Is it stupid? Sure...largely because the same thing could probably be accomplished through the normal tape exchange process but that still doesn't make it permissible under NCAA rules.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1...
Nov 8, 2023, 11:24 PM
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Thanks for the response and clarification that sign stealing is not illegal.
The scouting rule is antiquated and makes no sense!
This is over blown! I respect others opinion who actually engage in conversation!
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Team Captain [460]
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Re: NCAA Bylaw 11.6.1...
Nov 9, 2023, 7:02 AM
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It's not overblown dude. Look at the results. It's cheating.
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All-In [30841]
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CEO of a company dumps all his/her/they profits into a mega yacht
Nov 8, 2023, 7:52 AM
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company goes bankrupt.. employees are let go.
Why should they lose their jobs? They didn't do anything wrong.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: CEO of a company dumps all his/her/they profits into a mega yacht
Nov 8, 2023, 9:49 AM
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That is not a good analogy. They workers are not being punished by a governing body. They just happen to work for a guy who can no longer pay them. 2 totally different things.
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All-In [30841]
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the football players CHOSE to play for a scumbbag coach
Nov 8, 2023, 12:04 PM
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and got screwed.
just like the employees who chose to work for a scumbag CEO and got screwed..
NOt their fault but they will have to deal with the consequences.
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Freshman [-98]
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Re: the football players CHOSE to play for a scumbbag coach
Nov 11, 2023, 7:51 AM
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I knew a few gents in the military whose family chose to take a shower, and it happen to be a gas chamber. ...your logic?
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110%er [5081]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 8:11 AM
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Why can't CFB teams use the same wireless tech that the NFL uses?
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Orange Blooded [4159]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 8:21 AM
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^^^^^THIS!!!!!^^^^^^^
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Scout Team [185]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 11, 2023, 7:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities. ] |
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You're exactly right, use the old way of sending the plays in with the players or go the NFL route and use use wireless communication.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 11, 2023, 4:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities. ] |
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7
I agree with your premise, but I imagine that the NFL spends a good deal of cash making sure that the 32 NFL stadiums have secure and equal communication systems. That might be a bit more difficult in 132 disparate CFB stadiums.
Don't get me wrong. I think the NCAA should do it (they certainly have the money to do so) - to stop all of this type of cheating - it destroys the integrity of the game. I am just saying that it is easier said than done
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 8:36 AM
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The everything spin network is pushing the narative.. A competitive mich will get more viewers watching truck and beer ads. "Don't punish the players. There is no evidence he knew about it."
The standard plausible deniability defense. They want a scapegoat instead of the perpetrator and I'm sure mich will gladly supply one.
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All-In [26036]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
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Nov 8, 2023, 8:45 AM
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They penalized the Clemson and SMU players way back when.
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CU Medallion [52463]
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Orange Blooded [4150]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:03 AM
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Real simple answer in my opinion "If you don't follow the rule there are penalties." If the penalty is the team is disqualified from bowl games so be it. If the NCAA does not follow their own rules then all teams are free to do whatever they want in the name of winning.
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All-TigerNet [10640]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:15 AM
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I almost always agree with you Bret, but not sure what you are suggesting here. Maybe you are not suggesting anything, just provoking thought. Are you saying that the players should not be penalized because of what the coaches may have done? A group opf football players and the coaches are a "team" and any cheating that give them an advantage gives them all an advantage, whether they are aware of it or not. It is not different than when we were nailed after our 1981 natty because of illegal recruiting by oiur coaches. In that case, we got zero advantage because the player in question never came to Clemson. So, yes, if Michigan's coaches are guilty as charged, the entire program should pay the price.
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Hall of Famer [22376]
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You and I agree.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:51 AM
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The administration (coaching staff, et. al.) broke the NCAA rules. The excuse of "we can't penalize the players" is lame.
1. The NCAA penalizes players all the time. I just brought up one case, JMU.
2. Players on teams who are caught violating rules get penalized all the time.
3. Players on the teams who did nothing wrong and their teams didn't cheat will be penalized by missing out on the playoffs or a bowl game if Michigan is not punished.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: You and I agree.
Nov 8, 2023, 11:37 AM
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JMU did not break any rules and they are not being penalized.
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: You and I agree.
Nov 11, 2023, 4:59 PM
[ in reply to You and I agree. ] |
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the sins of the father . . .
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Oculus Spirit [93679]
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That was the same bullchit cry we heard from the entire...
1
Nov 8, 2023, 9:36 AM
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PSU (pedophile) organization.
The NCAA won't do jack to UM.
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All-Pro [650]
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Re: That was the same bullchit cry we heard from the entire...
1
Nov 8, 2023, 10:09 AM
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In my utopia Michigan makes it to the CFP and everyone refuses to play them. If teams stand up and the networks take a hit you'll see some consequences.
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Orange Blooded [2965]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 9:52 AM
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did James Maddison break a rule?
They cant compete in a bowl because they moved up a division.
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All-Pro [650]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 10:08 AM
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It's NCAA policy. App State and others were prevented from playing in the Sun Belt Championship when they moved up as well. I think it should be changed but with protections to keep teams from jumping back and forth on years when they have a good recruiting class.
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All-Pro [650]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 10:06 AM
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JMU should be allowed to participate and I think the entire Sun Belt has petitioned the NCAA.
Michigan players should feel the sting this year alone and be allowed to transfer via portal before Michigan faces more punishment the next two years. I don't let the families of bank robbers keep the money even if they weren't in the bank. Without consequences there is no conscience. Hurt Michigan by making it a place few want to play and make them rebuild. This will serve as a warning to others.
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110%er [6171]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
1
Nov 8, 2023, 10:08 AM
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Stop worrying about the poor players. They know who the coach they play for is and what lengths they will go to for an advantage. The rules apply to everyone so break them at your peril and prepare to suffer the consequences.
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Walk-On [115]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 3:31 PM
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Where's the penalty on the players? This will be adjudicated after the season. If their wins are vacated oh well. I didn't hurt Matt Leinart, Reggie Bush, et al. They still went to the league and made millions. Also, with the new rules if scholies are taken away, bowl bans, etc. they can transfer immediately to another school.
Either way if the sign stealing is anything like it's being reported (and some video has emerged that is a very bad look), they should be penalized.
I'd expect Harbaugh to bolt back to the NFL within a year or two regardless especially if the Chargers job becomes open.
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Legend [17625]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 8, 2023, 3:51 PM
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bretfsu® Without sign stealing, Belichick, Brady and New England would have far fewer championships. SpyGate was the cheating pinnacle of the NFL's history and was successfully covered up by Goodell who destroyed all the video evidence.
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CU Guru [1150]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 11, 2023, 7:54 AM
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James Madison knew the rules when they moved up
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Orange Blooded [4365]
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Re: Why penalize the players, a tale of two cities.
Nov 11, 2023, 4:50 PM
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Bret, two observations/opinions
1. Football is a team sport - and the coaches are a part of that team. I really don't want to penalize the kids, but the whole team benefitted from the cheating and so perhaps they cannot escape some of the effects of a just punishment.
2. STEALING SIGNALS IS WRONG, I don't care how anyone does it. It completely undermines the entire analytic part of the game. A coaching staff ios supposed to be able to see the patterns in your playcalling and design an effective counter for that. That is the fundamental to the contest.
It is like peeking at another players cards - you may get away with it but it is still wrong and it subverts the nature of the competition at hand.
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MVP [548]
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If it benefits my side, Im OK with it
Nov 14, 2023, 9:17 AM
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Sounds like our politics today. Morally bankrupt.
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