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Wonderful words
General Boards - Religion & Philosophy
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Wonderful words

3

Mar 27, 2024, 6:42 PM
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Hebrews 1:1-3
New King James Version
God’s Supreme Revelation

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Wonderful words

2

Mar 27, 2024, 10:14 PM
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Hebrews is great. I see it as an appeal to the Jews to accept Christ, rather than the Gentiles. The name is kind of a giveaway, too, lol.

That would make me think that someone in the Jerusalem circle wrote it, James and company, etc., since Paul was out on the road appealing to Gentiles.


Look at the persuasive technique the author uses...

"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,"

No Gentile in Greece or Italy or Turkey is going to give a hoot about Jewish patriarchs or Jewish prophets. They have their own ancestors. But Jews would have given a lot of stock to Jewish fathers and prophets.

So it's sort of a "This is just a continuation of God's word to our ancestors, so you know it has credibility" type of appeal.


If I recall, Hebrews goes through a lengthy process of painting Jesus as, of all things, a High Priest. Which again would appeal to Jews but probably be largely irrelevant to a convert who had never practiced the Law.


It's sort of ironic that for all the railing Jesus did against the priests, Hebrews now paints him AS a priest:

8:1 "Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being."

High Priest - that's great. And a long way from a humble carpenter, or fisherman. But I can see a bunch of Jews hearing Hebrews being read in an amphitheater and nodding their heads to each other:

"Yeah, yeah, I can buy into that...Jesus is just like a High Priest. Now that's a concept I can understand, and easily accept."

Look how the author even brings the sanctuary of the Temple and tabernacle into the appeal in 8:2. How many Gentiles that Paul converted even knew, or cared, about the sanctuary? But that's the Holy of Holies to Jews. So that is speaking their language right there.

Just a fantastic book.

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Re: Wonderful words

2

Mar 27, 2024, 10:27 PM
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Many think Paul is the author because of its priestly attributes. I think it is a strong possibility, but cannot say it is with certainty.

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Wonderful words

2

Mar 27, 2024, 10:34 PM
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I think Paul certainly COULD have written it, given his familiarity with the priest class, and being a pharisee of pharisees and all, but I'm not sure it would appeal to the crowd he was trying to convert around the Med.

But, he certainly could have written it, and handed it over to be used in the Judea/Galilee area. I could see that. I do think it is written in a very logical way, that is, it presents as very well laid out case, so that would indicate a very educated person was behind it...which could very well be Paul, I agree.

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I imagine Paul filled them in on the prophesies, Psalms and Torah.

2

Mar 28, 2024, 4:52 AM [ in reply to Re: Wonderful words ]
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Was it incidental that an actually Pharisee became the apostle to the gentiles? I spend more time in the OT and Psalms than the NT.

I think all the apostles understood what Paul wrote to the Hebrews which turned out to have converted more gentiles than Hebrews or so it seem.

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Re: I imagine Paul filled them in on the prophesies, Psalms and Torah.

2

Mar 28, 2024, 12:24 PM
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>Was it incidental that an actual Pharisee became the apostle to the gentiles?

That's a really good question. I'm not sure what drove Paul, exactly, on his mission. But every time I read his story I find some new wrinkles and nuances to it.

For instance, in Galatians he says this:

1:15 “[God] revealed his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles



That makes it sound like Paul chose, but was not commanded, to go to the Gentiles. I suppose anyone, Pharisee or not, could have done that. It would not have taken someone intimate with the Law to teach that one no longer needs the Law, you know?



But in Acts, the third-person narrator describes it this way:

9:15 “Go! This man [Paul] is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles.”



But that's not Paul saying it himself, that's someone else saying what God told them. In any event, Paul didn't seem to mix much, or very well, with the Jerusalem crowd. I think he passed through Jerusalem twice, and they had their brew up at Antioch, but other than that I think he was pretty much an independent operator. But it seems there was clearly huge rift in the early Church, even after Paul and James came to an agreement on the “Faith + 4” compromise. They might have worked it out, but it seems like not all of their followers were happy with their compromise. Here’s the recap:



Paul doesn’t give any details why he went back to Jerusalem the second time, other than this:

20:22 “And now, in obedience to the Holy Spirit I am going to Jerusalem…”



And on his trip back to Jerusalem we get this:

Acts 21:4 “By the power of the Spirit they [his followers in Tyre] told Paul not to go to Jerusalem.”



So God is telling Paul to go, but God is also warning others that there will be trouble. And that turned out to be true; not just from Jews, but early Christians as well. After Paul arrives in Jerusalem:

21:20 “…they said, “Brother Paul, you can see how many thousands of Jews have become believers, and how devoted they all are to the Law. 21 They have been told that you have been teaching all the Jews who live in Gentile countries to abandon the Law of Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or follow the Jewish customs.“



So now Paul has a problem…

“22 They are sure to hear that you have arrived. 23 This is what we want you to do. There are four men here who have taken a vow. [to be ultra-religious Jewish Nazirites, presumably, per Numbers 6:1. It required shaving your head during the vow but never again. Samson was a Nazirite]

24 Go along with them and join them in the ceremony of purification and pay their expenses; then they will be able to shave their heads. In this way everyone will know that there is no truth in any of the things that they have been told about you, but that you yourself live in accordance with the Law of Moses.



That’s pretty awkward for Paul, because he IS telling them to ignore the Law.

And, it’s a real interesting twist on the story. It’s the Jewish believers in Christ who are angry that Paul was relaxing the standards on the Law. James must have gotten off the hook, even though he was the one who made the final call after Antioch.

25 But as for the Gentiles who have become believers, [not Jews who have become believers] we have sent them a letter telling them we decided that they must not 1) eat any food that has been offered to idols, 2) or any blood, 3) or any animal that has been strangled, 4) and that they must keep themselves from sexual immorality.” [Faith+4]



So that sounds like there were some Jewish-Christians angry enough at Paul’s message that they wanted to kill him. We’ve got three groups here:

1) Jews who don’t believe Jesus was messiah, who still follow the Law – angry at Paul
2) Jews who do believe Jesus was messiah, who still follow the Law – angry at Paul
3) Gentiles, who have the Faith+4 compromise – happy with Paul



Later, in Acts 22:

17 “I went back to Jerusalem, and while I was praying in the Temple,

So here, even though Paul has rebuked the Law himself, he still prays at the Temple rather than at a Christian follower’s house. Maybe Paul hasn’t fully formed his interpretation yet.



“I had a vision, 18 in which I saw the Lord, as he said to me, ‘Hurry and leave Jerusalem quickly, because the people here will not accept your witness about me.’

So God tells Paul to leave Jerusalem now, even though he sent Paul to Jerusalem, back in Acts 20:22


And also in Acts 22:

19 ‘Lord,’ I answered, ‘they know very well that I went to the synagogues and arrested and beat those who believe in you. 20 And when your witness Stephen was put to death, I myself was there, approving of his murder and taking care of the cloaks of his murderers.’ 21 ‘Go,’ the Lord said to me, ‘for I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”



So now, we have God sending Paul back to the Gentiles. It sounds like for protection, as much as anything else. But in this case it’s clear that it’s God’s decision, not Paul’s choice.

There’s some back and forth in there, I think, and not until the very end is it explicit that Paul was sent by God’s direction. That still leaves the pharisee question up in the air. But, it might have been because Paul believed in resurrection to start with. Here’s Paul in front of the Jewish Supreme Court, the Sanhedrin:

Acts 23:8

“6 Then Paul, knowing that some of them [his accusers] were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, “My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.”

That’s very clever of Paul. Because he KNOWS that his fellow Pharisees on the court believe in resurrection just like he does. So in effect, he’s saying “You have me on trial for something that you, yourself, believe in.”

That was half-true, because there were other conditions to being the messiah, of course. But Paul gets the desired effect by framing his defense around the resurrection issue, alone.



7 When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)

Paul would have made a great lawyer, lol. But as to your original question, maybe God thought a prior believer in resurrection would be a better apostle to the Gentiles. No way to know that.

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That opening to your post is most applicable.

2

Mar 29, 2024, 6:27 AM
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Gal 1:

"13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:

14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:..."

You have to consider the impact of vs 13 and 14. We got a guy who is hard, cold and without mercy persecuting the Church. None of the other 11 are even in the same league. Paul was brutal, heartless and deadly. His primary challenge among the pharisees was to seek out women and men who believed Jesus was the Christ, bound them and delivered them to judgement. He played Judge Dredd when he found Stephen.

Consider the impact on those who saw him added to the church, both within and not. 'What's this? We know well all the foolishness of a Messiah who ended up crucified and now this guy has become a believer?'

How hard is it to pick out the Christian when men so many are behaving properly in public? No one had a problems seeing Christ in Paul. No testimony exist which more shows God's work in a heart than Paul. I say it was a setup.

Psa 22, 139 and others include the phrase 'separated me from my mother's womb,' indicating Paul shared with David a believe he was predestinated to do what they were doing.




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Re: That opening to your post is most applicable.


Mar 29, 2024, 10:52 AM
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>'separated me from my mother's womb,'

Yeah, it's a very common phrase. Appears many, many times in the OT, even outside of Psalms


>He played Judge Dredd when he found Stephen.


It's interesting that Paul was 'hands off' when it comes to the stoning itself. But, he's close enough to hold people's coats. The 'persecution machine' is something there's just not much info on. Paul seems to have been the tracker, and then handed the dirty work over to others.

But's who's doing the persecution? Is it a sanctioned group, or a street gang? Pharisees served on their SCOTUS, the Sanhedrin, along with Sadducees. So it's not like saying "it was the Democrats" or "it was the Republicans" because they were apparently all mixed together.

And there were many more sects beyond what became today's Christians that were persecuted. Maybe it was a faction within the priest class, but not all priests. Caiaphas was definitely a ringleader, but both Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, who were both Pharisees on the Sanhedrin, and thus a "judge-priest" types of some sort, aided Jesus.

I note that when they came for Jesus, it was by Roman soldiers. But the Romans were usually hands off unless the offenders were agitators who threatened the peace. Sort of like the cops who drive around outside of gangland, but don't go into gangland unless violence starts trickling out.

But however it was structured it had quite a reach. Paul was being sent all the way to Damascus to find believers. Still a lot of gray as to how all that was set up, I think.

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Christians, today, still try to hold on to Law as a stairway to heaven

2

Mar 29, 2024, 8:01 AM [ in reply to Re: I imagine Paul filled them in on the prophesies, Psalms and Torah. ]
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Specifically, the Ten Commandments. Amazingly, the Ten Commandments were never presented as a stairway to heaven. They were, and still are, however, a thermometer that helps one see how [sick] they truly are. Why? Because no one keeps the Ten Commandments all in one day - ever! And to be guilty in breaking one is to be guilty in breaking all.

One might have a "good run" at a few of them during the day, but no one is pure in them all - not even in a single day.

In fact, a closer look at the Ten Commandments and one can find these instructions, measured in the three groups that they address, to be clear:

1) #1-4 deal with a person's relationship directly with God
2) #5 deals with the family circle
3) #6-10 deal with one's relation to others or restraint of self.

What's truly amazing, and so many do not see this, is that the Ten Commandments only describe what one should give of themself to God, family, and their neighbor. NONE of them tell anyone what they should expect to receive from God, family, or neighbors.

Isn't it amazing, too, that Jesus summed up the greatest of the Laws as loving God with all one's strength, mind, and soul. Then, He said, the second is like the first, to love one's neighbor as they love themself. Again, only what one should give, and not expect in return... Just as Jesus Himself walked before the Father and creation. And it could not be made any clearer than it was when, hanging from the cross, He said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Re: Christians, today, still try to hold on to Law as a stairway to heaven

1

Mar 29, 2024, 11:06 AM
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>One might have a "good run" at a few of them during the day, but no one is pure in them all - not even in a single day.

That's a great post, Hunt, and fundamental to understanding how Jews viewed Sin and salvation. To them, even today, it's not a matter of "failure is not an option," it's more like "failure is an absolute certainty."

One will never, ever, live up to even 10, much less the other 603, commandments in the Law. So 'salvation' is viewed as a constant process...sin, cleanse, sin, cleanse, sin, cleanse.

The analogy I've heard used several times is "it's just like washing your dirty clothes. You have to do it all the time, over and over."

So you can understand how the idea of one final 'clothes washing' for eternity would throw them for a loop. Which it did, and which is why there was so much resistance to the message. It just requires a complete and fundamental reset on how one views sin, and salvation.

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Re: Christians, today, still try to hold on to Law as a stairway to heaven


Mar 29, 2024, 2:40 PM [ in reply to Christians, today, still try to hold on to Law as a stairway to heaven ]
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The ten commandments do not even seem applicable today.

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I know christians try to apply this to a modern world. Like you shouldn't put money or fame or whatever else before god. But that is taking the commandment out of context. It was a literal command not to worship other gods.

Further, the writer of this commandment, whoever it was, claimed to physically see god act in nature. We do not see that today. How can we worship a god that we can't even know is there?

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Re: Christians, today, still try to hold on to Law as a stairway to heaven


Mar 29, 2024, 2:53 PM
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>Further, the writer of this commandment, whoever it was, claimed to physically see god act in nature. We do not see that today. How can we worship a god that we can't even know is there?

I agree, but I would suspect that will say otherwise, and that god does physically act in nature today. Good luck getting any verifiable evidence for that though.

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