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Hall of Famer [21978]
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srs topic is srs - warning: religious-y
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Apr 1, 2024, 2:38 PM
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just wanna preface this with: I'm not posting this in taggernet.pol nor taggernet.religion b/c a) they're crazies, b) this ain't a religious philosophical debate (happy to do that in the other forum) and c) for some weirdass reason, I trust you guise
So, predicament: I feel like there would be a lot of advantages in taking my kids / family / self to church. Big, hairy, stanky BUTTTTT: I'm not a true believer, nor will I ever be.
I strongly believe in a lot of the teachings of Christ. I believe in the community of church, fellowship, etc. I believe in a higher spiritual being, I believe in an afterlife, I believe in a lot of the same themes - I just don't explicitly believe the writings of the Bible.
If you had to label it, I'd call it a psychedelic's version of Jefferson's view on Christianity.
Do any of you guys deal with this?
On one hand, I feel like the value in raising my kids in that community / environment has more positives than negatives (and believe me, I've experienced the negatives). But I struggle with the notion of going into something, committing to something, eventually having conversations with people that I meet/hang out with...knowing I'm ultimately not buying what they're selling (at least, the big event).
Is that normal?
I'm specifically asking for input from the smartasses and/or dads around how you handle this / how you would handle this. If we wanna take a deeper dive into the belief debate and what have you, more than happy to do that, but do not wanna do that here to disrupt a jounge Monday.
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Hall of Famer [22968]
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I'm a HUGE fan of churches and the community they create
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Apr 1, 2024, 2:46 PM
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However I don't have the faith either. Good person overall (I think), but believe I control my own destiny and not some mystical spirit in the sky.
We still take our kids to Sunday school and let them decide on their beliefs. They might be influenced by me a bit to be pragmatic about things.
Lots of work went into finding a church that didn't make politics/abortion their main messaging as I couldn't make it thru that nonsense. Also any church that heavily pushed women are subservient to men was a veto from my wife.
Good luck with your path.
Most people don't challenge/discuss how strong I am in faith. At the same time, I try not to judge people that are 'Christian' because they attend church on Sunday but are complete asshat cheaters the rest of the week.
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All-In [27184]
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You could think of it like sports or lessons.
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Apr 1, 2024, 2:51 PM
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It's not your jam, but it's good for the kids. No church would (or should) kick you out or look down on you about being there. Church is intended to be for non-believers. And, hopefully, they respect you enough not to hammer away at you, and you respect the process to let them take their shot every now and then. But it's good for the kids, and I think you could find your place in there, too. Maybe not a Bible study or something, but my dad help start this group at the church where the old and not-so-old timers help out both the church and the community with labor projects the people either can't afford or are unable to do themselves because of age/disability.
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All-In [42976]
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If you REALLY want to be able to be honest with yourself and your church,
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Apr 1, 2024, 2:52 PM
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go to a Unitarian Church. You can believe - or not - anything you want. That's probably a little hippy-dippy for you though.
OTOH, if you go to a mainstream church and 'fake it' (I am using shorthand here), I don't think you would be alone. I always assumed a healthy percentage of the people sitting in pews every week are somewhere on the spectrum between 'I struggle with some aspects of my church's teachings' to 'I don't believe any of this but my wife makes me go'.
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CU Medallion [66209]
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Biggest lollers I ever had at church
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:28 PM
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was as a kid, the pastor would rail on people who came to church for "business contacts and networking" I have no doubt some of that was true, but he never turned down gifts from them (notice I didn't say tithes.) These gifts were usually at the end of the year (for tax porpoises) and usually something they'd have to write off anyway
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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honestly, that's my biggest headwind
Apr 2, 2024, 9:21 AM
[ in reply to If you REALLY want to be able to be honest with yourself and your church, ] |
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I won't 'fake it'.
Now, I won't go in guns blazing, right, being like this ish is for the birds. I can at least be, and undoubtedly will be, respectful.
But if anyone asks, my children included, I'm going to be honest. I think I have plenty of runway to prepare the conversation with my kids, obviously, just something that's on my mind I guess.
No issues putting in the work to be "involved". I played drums in my church growing up from 6th grade to ~ sophomore year of HS when SHTF family wise and I wrote off church completely.
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All-In [28440]
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i think its a good idea for the kids - and for yourself
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:01 PM
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not because of my beliefs, but it helps kids understand that life is about doing the greater good. that others are not as fortunate. i never push my belief system on others - not my place to judge. learned that in church when i was a wee lad. i can only advise you on one thing - visit a few and see which one family enjoys and that will have “life” meaning. i think sunday school for girls helped them understand the meaning of help and kindness. they loved their youth pastor. now, let’s not allow me to get it twisted - girls don’t go at college and rarely when home. i didn’t either in college or right after. but, i do believe church formed a foundation for them.
my 69 cents.
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All-In [49081]
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I have been all over the place with my spirituality...
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:19 PM
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We currently attend a non-denominational church that is very new testament focused in their teachings. Pastor does fantastic sermons that make you think more deeply about the things you've read in the Bible. I'm not a huge fan of the praise songs before and after the sermon, but everyone else likes them so...
Seacoast in SC is not only non-denominational but they are also explicitly welcoming of non-believers. You could maybe find a church like that.
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All-In [27184]
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Seacoast is good people.***
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:23 PM
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Hall of Famer [24171]
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Re: srs topic is srs - warning: religious-y
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:25 PM
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I'm probably in the opposite camp as you. I do believe in Christ as my savior (I'm guessing that is what is still considered Christian), but I'm not really involved with organized religion. That being said, the right place would probably be good for your family.
My Dad was a minister, and I can tell you he would appreciate your attendance no matter your beliefs. I'm guessing many pastors are the same way.
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110%er [7004]
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Man, great question. My 2 cents:
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:29 PM
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1) There is a big benefit to the community aspect, especially for kids. I enjoy socializing with our church group. Beyond that, they are the group I call if/when I really need something. It is pretty awesome to see and experience a group of friends that loves one another and sacrifices for one another in this way.
2) If you believe in most of the moral teachings of Christianity, church would be helpful in instilling those morals in your kids.
3) I thinkregular church attendance is correlated to positive life outcomes for kids. There is probably some overlap here with other social factors.
To your point on "But I struggle with the notion of going into something, committing to something, eventually having conversations with people that I meet/hang out with...knowing I'm ultimately not buying what they're selling (at least, the big event)."
Many churches would welcome you and your family even if (and perhaps especially if) you are honest about what you believe and why you want to be involved. The level of commitment/fellowship allowed* will differ by church but most will see your good intentions. You could likely attend and get many of the benefits you are looking for without formal membership. You'll certainly run into some individuals who try to debate you, and some might be wary of you but most good churches will think "Awesome, come on in." Don't be surprised or offended when they try to convert you.
Lastly, I don't want to sidetrack the convo but feel compelled to put my cards on the table that I'm a fairly typical, orthodox Christian. So, I'd love to have you come to church (and would love for you to become a "true believer."  ">"> Sometimes God works when you least expect him to).
*For example, few churches would put a non-believer in a leadership role. Others, including mine, reserves home group membership for professing Christians.
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CU Medallion [58471]
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You sound like me.
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:29 PM
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And I'm one of the crazies from the religious bored.
I felt pretty much the same way, and brought my kids up in the Episcopal Church. I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church, and didn't want the fire and brimstone that scared me out of my wits as a kid, for my kids. In the Episcopal church, there's lot's of ritual, but depending on the church, can be welcoming to a diverse crowd, without a demand for strict adherence to dogma. My kids learned the foundations of Christianity, and had the social aspect of it as well for support and reinforcement. As they got older, I still made sure they knew how to think and decide for themselves however, instead of me telling them what to think.
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Hall of Famer [21588]
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No reason to scare kids with religion.
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:33 PM
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Let them make their minds up as adults. There are plenty of other positive structures to get them involved in for community.
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Lot o points [163012]
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There is nothing like being indoctrinated as a kid
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Apr 1, 2024, 4:41 PM
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by a nun with a ruler.
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Lot o points [156046]
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Yeah. Same with math, history, and general ethics and morality.
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Apr 1, 2024, 11:37 PM
[ in reply to No reason to scare kids with religion. ] |
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Keep em ignorant. If they need it, they’ll figure it out after 21.
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All-In [46864]
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I definitely see the value of community that church provides. Especially in the
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Apr 1, 2024, 3:34 PM
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Deep south like where most of us are. However, growing up in church like I have, one of the things I despise the most is hypocrites. I would feel too much like one being there and not believing. Plus I find a lot of church interactions to be extremely fake and I'm not for that.
Now if my kids want to go then they can go. I won't stop them from it. I spent every Sunday for years getting them ready for my mom to pick them up for church. I'm not going, but they can go.
They can also decide not to go which has happened recently. I don't know what happened but my kids decided they did not want to go back and I'm not making them like my parents made me. You want to talk about a HEATED conversation with my parents about that. My God.
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Lot o points [156046]
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Thats sort of the nature of sin.
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Apr 1, 2024, 11:38 PM
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It makes every Christian you see a hypocrite. However, almost all of us acknowledge it. It’s no deep secret.
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Legend [15218]
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My strongest lifelong friendships go back to several guys who
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Apr 1, 2024, 4:04 PM
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went to church with me. Couple of "mission trips" where we helped pour concrete and build houses, etc to less fortunate people. Pretty eye-opening stuff in your middle school, high school formative years. Those bonds have also stood the test of time.
Now sure, you can do that stuff on your own, but I think the easiest way is to get plugged into a solid local church. Don't see any harm in it no matter your own personal beliefs.
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All-In [29890]
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Re: srs topic is srs - warning: religious-y
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Apr 1, 2024, 4:12 PM
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I'd recommend at least trying some churches out. Multiple. They're all different even within the same denomination. Especially if you are in a larger city you'll have more options. All kinds of beliefs. Read up on some and try a few out. There may even be a psychedelic Jeffersonian congregation out there. Maybe you'll find a Love Connection, maybe not.
I say that not because I'm particularly religious myself anymore, but because I think less knowledge, less information, and less exposure to ideas is never the right answer. There's a cultural familiarity aspect, too. Religion of any kind is just a big part of society, from American country churches to Tibetan monasteries. You don't want to be the only kid on the block who has never seen Star Wars, you know? You might not like it, but you should at least see it, once.
Trying a few congregations out might feel right, or not, but you won't know till you try. And you'll find out pretty quick whether the group is right for you or not. Plus, if you don't...
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Heisman Winner [135687]
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I think you're doing your kids a disservice of you don't join a church.
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Apr 1, 2024, 4:28 PM
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It's the only way your kids are going to get to play organized basketball if they don't end up making the school team, I mean. Plus, think of all the great casserole recipes your wife will get from the family hanging around those potluck suppers.
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Hall of Famer [22968]
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Clothing budget will increase though
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Apr 1, 2024, 5:01 PM
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We also skipped joining a few churches where men always wore suits and women were in crazy expensive dresses. Nothing proves how religious you are without proving you dress well.
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Lot o points [156046]
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Take religion out of the equation
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Apr 1, 2024, 4:49 PM
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You’re asking “I think X would be good for my kid on many levels. Should I take my kids to X?
That’s a pretty easy question for a good parent.
Your daughter will probably do dance lessons or similar where you’ll have to go to recitals that are the most painful 3 hours of your life, but it’s good for her, so you do it. Just think of this as the same.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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sidebar......
Apr 2, 2024, 9:09 AM
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have you seen some of these "modern" dance studios?
idk how I feel about my 5 year old twerking in a one piece bikini.
call me old fashioned, but gahlee man, what happened to the traditional ####?
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Lot o points [156046]
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Yeah, a distant cousin of mine proudly shared some
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Apr 2, 2024, 9:24 AM
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Pics of her 9 year old’s recital in some fake leather outfit that would have made Catwoman embarrassed.
And wait till you start going to HS school events and seeing the halftime dance team show. 30 years ago you couldn’t get strip club dancers to dance like that. It’s weird how sexualized it’s all becoming.
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All-In [27184]
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In high school I ran for student government on a platform of
Apr 2, 2024, 9:42 AM
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cleaning-up the music we had at school events. I guess I was ahead of my time.
(PS - I won, and was given control of the Powderpuff game soundtrack. There were many confused people.)
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Heisman Winner [119794]
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Wrong board, #######***
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Apr 1, 2024, 5:51 PM
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All-In [49216]
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I'd give it a shot. Shop around. There's plenty o church attendees with
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Apr 1, 2024, 11:14 PM
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little faith.
We settled on ELCA Lutheran, I was raised Baptist. See what works for you. Prolly good for the kids, faith is a good thing
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Orange Blooded [2821]
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No tids for my time?
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Apr 1, 2024, 11:36 PM
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Grew up forced to go to church. My best friends to this day were made there, I’m grateful for the upbringing. As a kid I was bitter because I was forced to go. I was like arm candy: “look at our family, we go to church together.”
Not having the choice led to resentment in my younger years.
As an adult, I’ll take my kids and stay for the Bible baddies. 🥵🥵🥵✝️✝️✝️
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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seemed a little more brazen
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Apr 2, 2024, 9:17 AM
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than even I'm accustomed to.
ha, but at least you acknowledged I usually try
this kinda fits:
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All-In [45843]
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I didn't want to comment....
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Apr 2, 2024, 6:00 AM
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Butt I will. Yesterday I went to the visitation and funeral for my 45 year old 2nd cousin. She passed in her sleep March 28. The Baptist pastor that performed the services did the strict biblical tradition of the only way to heaven is through Jesus. I have read the Bible front to back have been to 80 percent of Christian churches. Both parents were Lutheran and I was raised in the Lutheran church.
Believe what you u want to believe. if it's Buddha, Satan, Mothra or xenu I don't care. Its your choice.
The Jews and Arabs are going to battle to the end of time.
Call me a heathen if you want. Call me a saint. I don't care.
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Oculus Spirit [93751]
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Do what you always do.
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Apr 2, 2024, 6:15 AM
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Do what you believe to be best for your children.
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Heisman Winner [105702]
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A day late, but here is my $0.02
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Apr 2, 2024, 8:28 AM
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Greenr was raised in the church, Presbyterian though, so you just sit on the back row, thank the preacher for the message and feel good when you leave. No fire and brimstone, women served in the church, mostly happy messages, etc. This was also a VERY small community church, 75 on a good Sunday. After college, Greenr went back to that same Church, even served as a Deacon then an Elder. Small church, goota have help where you can. Kids were baptized in that church, same one I was baptized in. Church hired an interim minister to help with transitioning to a new full-time minister who ended up being openly gay. He was a great minister. He lasted a couple months until the shidd hit the fan, his facebook page had pics of him an his boyfriend/partner. As an elder, we were tasked with voting to keep him on or "fire" him. Votes were 9-3 to send him on his way. I voted keep him, Dad voted keep him, one other keep him vote. I knew this was a sign so I handed in my resignation from the board that day and have maybe been back once since then.
Went to a bigger Presby church in Rock Hill and really enjoyed it. We were "outsiders" since we didn't grow up there but the kids were getting involved and we were participating in everything. COVID hit and church attendance was sparse. We coached basketball teams, went to the Youth events, volunteered elsewhere, but it never hit that pre-COVID crowd. The people with Young Kids just kinda stopped coming as much. Then we moved to Wilmington and visited a couple churches, but haven't dove back in.
All this is to say, the right church is a great place to raise your family. The key is finding that church. I believe in a higher power, but I don't particularly like organized religion. My kids miss it though and I feel bad for that. Daughter goes with friends to some events, but we still haven't gotten too involved. I'm not into a 1000 member see and be seen church, nah. We did visit one church I liked alot here, but we were the ONLY people under 50 there, no kids, LOTS of old folks. I hated it too, the minister was great.
Basically I am a lib with particular beliefs that sometimes do no align with churches, especially deep south churches, but I like the environment and the family and it is GREAT for the kids. I believe in a higher power, just not sure that book is spot on, word for word, so I take it as a general guide and not the end-all, be-all that some people do.
This post is making me think we need to revisit churches again. Thanks for taking away my Sundays, geez.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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see, that's the joungy rub....
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Apr 2, 2024, 9:15 AM
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I usually play golf on Sundays at 7 AM.
same boat though man. crazy how (and I had this intuition, which is why I brought it here) a lot of us here had the exact same experiences. I think it's a generational thing.
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Starter [382]
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Re: srs topic is srs - warning: religious-y
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Apr 2, 2024, 9:07 AM
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I apologize upfront if this has already been posted, since I didn't read every post in the thread.
I did deal with this at one time and I discovered that my "problem" wasn't with religion but with church. As my children reached 5 and 6, I thought it would be a good idea to "get right with God". Not just for them, but for myself as well. here's what I found:
You're familiar the adage, "you get out what you put into it". Church is probably the only place I've discovered that to be 100% true. You have to get involved in it, then you see more and more about what church is about. That being said.....
I learned that it's OK to say no to certain things. I was volunteering for committees (Presbyterians don't do anything without a committee), every function, became a deacon and an elder, joined the choir and so on. One Sunday I was at the church for around 12 hours because of all my commitments. I finally said enough. I cut it down to just a few things that I was good at and enjoyed doing.
Through all that I learned that Christians are capable of some very un-Christian-like behavior. We had issues in deacons meeting, session meetings, finance meetings, issues with the youth and their leaders, etc. I was discouraged, angry and enlightened. And I stayed.
When my sister passed away at the age of 46 with breast cancer, to say I was angry with God would be a huge understatement. But that church family got me through it. I learned it's Ok to be angry at God. Christians don't complain, they lament. Hence Lamentations.
If you are concerned about conversing with fellow church members or these feelings that you're some type of hypocrite, I suggest let that be the topic of conversation. My guess is that you're not alone.
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Hall of Famer [21978]
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good stuff boys, appreciate it
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Apr 2, 2024, 9:23 AM
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my hunch was right that a lot of y'all would have good advice and perspectives
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Oculus Spirit [81130]
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I found if I follow these tenets, everything else works out
Apr 2, 2024, 9:45 AM
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I
One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.
II
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
III
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
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The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.
V
Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.
VI
People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.
VII
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.
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All-In [27184]
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Church of Satan?***
Apr 2, 2024, 9:50 AM
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Oculus Spirit [81130]
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Doesn't seem like its that bad.
Apr 2, 2024, 9:53 AM
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I wonder what communion is like?
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All-In [28440]
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theres this crossroad you go to for communion***
Apr 2, 2024, 10:28 AM
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Lot o points [156046]
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Joined: 5/6/13
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The overlap with several run-of-the-mill Judeo-Christian tenets is ironic.***
Apr 2, 2024, 10:16 AM
[ in reply to Church of Satan?*** ] |
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Oculus Spirit [81130]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56208
Joined: 9/13/04
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I think they are much more about personal freedoms and less dogma
Apr 2, 2024, 10:22 AM
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They nor The Satanic Temple believe or worship a "Satan". They profess hedonism and "ethical egoism" above all else.
I'd guess more people live with a lean toward these tenets than they'd ever, ever want to admit, just because of the "satanic" nonsense.
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All-In [27184]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 15720
Joined: 1/26/22
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It makes sense. Christianity stripped down to behavioral cues is
Apr 2, 2024, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to The overlap with several run-of-the-mill Judeo-Christian tenets is ironic.*** ] |
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love, respect, and service. Exactly what you hope/need to keep free will from losing its wheels. Very similar construct to libertarianism, wherein basic morality is the check on capitalistic avarice. It is only ironic if you take Church of Satan at its surface, which is primarily a (highly successful) troll job on the religiously sensitive.
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