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CU Medallion [58448]
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I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 3:43 PM
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the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally". I've had it for years and read it before, but refer back to it every now and then, and it always gets me to thinking. It's a great book.
I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, and was taught that the only way to heaven when you die is to open your heart to Jesus, ask for his forgivness for being a sinner, and accept him as your personal savior. If you did that with sincerity and purpose, you were "saved", and went to heaven, but if you did not, you went to hell when you died, and spent eternity in a place filled with fire. As a youngster, I just always accepted that without any further thought or question. It was only as an adult that I really began to think about it on a deeper level, and question exactly how t worked. So, I have a question for those of you who grew up in a similar tradition, or otherwise still hold those beliefs.
Exactly when did the acceptance of Jesus of Nazereth as savior become THE ONLY WAY into heaven? Was it as soon as Jesus was born? Did it occur before he was born? After the first time he announced he was the son of God? The instant he died on the cross? The instant he rose from the tomb? Or was it later, after word of his resuerrection began to spread? Or is it only after a person, even today, becomes aware of Jesus and his message of salvation? Does it apply to people who never, for one reason or another, hear or understand the message?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 5:51 PM
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The truth is… it depends on who you ask.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Of course. I was asking a specific group of people,
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Aug 5, 2023, 6:16 PM
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but all replies that actually answer or address the question are welcome.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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From Adam all the way to you and me...
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Aug 5, 2023, 7:24 PM
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Jesus was the savior. The first reference to a redeemer who would take away A&E's sin was Gen 3:16. When A&E ate of the forbidden tree they hid from God (lol) and covered their nakedness with coverings made from leaves.
God killed some animals and made skins for them. That was an indicator that only the shedding of blood will hide our sin.
Hebrews held the belief that a messiah would come and save them from their sin. The sacrifices in the tabernacle and later the temple reminded them that a Savior would come. During those 400+ years when the Hebrews were not in power in their land the focus on a savior was perverted to be a savior who only conquered the world and made them a world power.
That hasn't change for Israel though many believed when Jesus came.
I commend you on deciding to read the Bible. The Bible is most precious to me. Whether you take it literally or metaphorically regular reading will change you. If you are curious about something and not sure you understand post the issue here.
The responses might give you at least some options and I recommend you pray about your questions and allow God to respond. He will if you trust Him.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Okay, so up until the time of Jesus, actual belief in Jesus
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Aug 6, 2023, 12:08 AM
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himself was not necessary for salvation, but merely the belief that someday a savior or messiah would appear was all it took to get into heaven. Is that what you are saying, yes or no?
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Yes but with slight qualifiers.
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:10 AM
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Jesus, according to the Bible was He who created this world and everything in it. I don't know if God called Him 'Jesus.'
I can list the scripture if you please.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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We only had one car growing up and my dad drove it to...
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Aug 5, 2023, 7:30 PM
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the terminal where he got in an 18 wheeler and stayed on the road for a week or more at a time. We walked to the nearest church. I've gone to Church of Christ, Baptist, several different of each and several different pentecostal churches.
We moved a lot so I wouldn't remember all of them but everything, I suppose, except Catholic. I got saved at home. I went to the local 1st Baptist and believed that's where God wanted me to worship and serve.
I've visited a lot of churches since then. I believe God's people are strewn among all the different denominations and the Catholic Church.
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Hall of Famer [24121]
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Re: We only had one car growing up and my dad drove it to...
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Aug 6, 2023, 4:33 AM
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He drew you to repentance like he did Jimmy and me. We don't always agree on everything, but I guarantee we all agree on that.
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Hall of Famer [24121]
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Re: We only had one car growing up and my dad drove it to...
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Aug 6, 2023, 4:38 AM
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Repentance is a hard term for some, but to our people it is welcome and life changing and an ongoing blessing.
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Orange Blooded [3227]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 7:37 PM
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Sounds like torture.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 8:05 PM
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As someone who was born and raised southern Baptist just like you…
It was mainly your question here, and the fact that there are so many possibilities of what one could believe or not believe about Jesus, and so many differences in what one could believe, they made me come to the conclusion that Christianity is false.
It’s not the only reason, but probably the main one.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 8:06 PM
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Interesting questions. The first has, I think, an objective answer, but the last one probably doesn't. Good questions.
As to the first, I'll agree with 88 that the need for a sacrificial messiah started in Genesis. How his specific identity relates to all who came before is another subject, but as to Him being the only way, He said, "I am the way ... no one comes to the Father but through me." 88 pointed out that this is the case, and that it didn't begin there.
Your last question deals with an uncomfortable reality, imo, that people are not judged based on what they believe about Jesus. Our lost condition is universal and has nothing to do with Jesus. In the worst case answer to your question - that some simply never have the opportunity to surrender - we have no reason to see that as unfair treatment. If I randomly bail an offender out of jail, simply because I want to, nothing unfair is done to the others: they do not remain there because of me. I do not think that is the answer to your question, but I do think one has to start there. God has not been unfair to anyone. Those who spend eternity apart from Him are receiving their choice, imo.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I am not following you. At all.
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Aug 6, 2023, 12:16 AM
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First, is what I was taught, that the only way to heaven is acceptance of Jesus as savior, true or not?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: I am not following you. At all.
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Aug 6, 2023, 12:40 AM
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Sure. True. I don't see anyone being unclear about that. Maybe it is these two things you are questioning:
1. "Accept Jesus as savior". That term is not in the NT. I'm not saying it is not a useful phrase, but the definition of 'accept' is vague enough that 5 Christians might come up with 5 different definitions. The NT is clear about what John 3:16 means, but we mess it up a lot, I think. Faith is not what one intellectually believes, imo, but is one's surrenderedness to Jesus.
2. Rather than getting into OT believers here, I'll refer to the mention below of Hebrews 11 as it relates to OT believers. That chapter is as good a description of faith as one will find, imo, when one compares them to the very devout and 'believing' pharisees who Jesus called a 'brood of vipers'. To me, that makes clear how Abraham and 88 are saved by the same Jesus.
Anyway, good questions.
Edit: I'll put it another way. When I was young, in a similar church experience as yours, I had little doubt about who Jesus was. Ask me if Jesus was executed for the sins of mankind, and resurrected as a promise of eternal life with Him, and if this was the only provision for one's sin, I would have said "yes". I believed it, and I was old enough to take responsibility for that answer. I didn't know why I believed it, and I didn't know the reasons the NT is reliable, but that is irrelevant, not a requirement. People who knew me would have said, "Yes, he has accepted Jesus as his savior." I would not have disagreed. But a couple of years later I mostly walked away from it, as I said somewhere else in this thread.
20 years later later, an honest look in the mirror revealed who I actually was. In youth I had been a pharisee, agreeing to the rules and religion. As an adult I had been a moralist, striving to be a 'good person' with miserable results. The first merely led to the latter. I knew what John 3:16 actually meant, but I had hand waved at it through age 35. In the greatest act of grace God can muster, He then placed me in a position where I knew I had sailed beyond my competence. I had to either give up, and hand myself to Him, or double down on my ability to pull it together tomorrow. I said to him, "I deserve nothing, ask for nothing, hope for nothing. I belong to you. If I never have another friend, I will depend only on you. If I never have a dime, I will depend only on you. If MissTulsa leaves me, I will depend only you you. Anything I am to have, it will be what you provide. Tell me who I am, and what I am to do each moment."
That was, to me, 'accepting Jesus'. Those in the OT were asked to do the same with the promised messiah. "It is not the blood of goats and bulls that save men's souls ..."
Oh, btw, no, I do not claim to live up to my promise to Him every moment. I'm sure that on some days I behave as self focused as before. So, what is the reality of my faith? All I can say is that He is the standard. If He says I messed up, I messed up, and I admit to it, and repent of it. The standard is no longer what I think is right, but what He says is good. That is not an easy out: He is not a compromiser with those who follow Him.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Okay, that's a lot. Tell me if I've understood correctly.
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Aug 6, 2023, 6:16 AM
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To be "saved", as it was called in our upbringing in the Southern Baptist church, to have eternal life (in heaven), one must totally and completely surrender to Jesus. Not just intellectually believe, but surrender. That's what I was trying to get at in my original post with "open your heart to Jesus, ask for his forgivness for being a sinner, and accept him as your personal savior. If you did that with sincerity and purpose...". It's about acceptance and surrender. It's spiritual, not just intellectual.
Then you are saying that before Jesus, people only had to surrender to the future Jesus, who they only knew not as Jesus, but the promised messiah.
And people who never heard or knew about any of it went, and continue to go to hell.
How'd I do?
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Another question ...
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Aug 6, 2023, 6:34 AM
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You said "Those who spend eternity apart from Him are receiving their choice, imo."
But, "In the worst case answer to your question - that some simply never have the opportunity to surrender".
If some never have the opportunity to surrender because they never knew that was a choice, then how are they choosing to spend eternity apart from Him?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: Another question ...
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Aug 6, 2023, 9:45 AM
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Also a great question, as it is hard to describe in universal terms what happens in one's human heart. But a shot at it, as I understand it:
What happened in Eden is something we all have done, deciding to "know good and evil". You have thought about what that meant, and however you view that is fine. I'll propose that it means we were not created to decide what was moral, right and good. We looked to God for that, as child to parent, and everything else was ours to do as we saw best. Then you know the Enemy said, "God just doesn't want you to be like him." They fell for it, and later God says to himself, "They have become like us, knowing good and evil." The Enemy deceived us with the truth. We were not made to handle that responsibility, and here we all are.
As I look inside myself, I don't blame Adam and Eve. I am fully responsible for that state of being. That is who I was, because it is where I wanted to be. My responsibility. Whatever the judgement is, it is not about Jesus. It is about us. That is where we are.
Surrendering to Jesus is disavowing that decision, as discussed above. A return from the rebellion. If I don't take the opportunity, or don't know it is available, I am still responsible for being part of it. In the end, that is what hell is, imo. "You got it." If it is as harsh as that, it is completely fair.
If I could say all that in 3 sentences, I would.
Edit: I had a history prof say that if he was an insurance company he would cancel the policies of all grandparents of Clemson students. "I missed the exam because my grandmother died. When is the makeup?" He said, "I hate to be harsh, but I don't care. You know the date, so tell her not to die then. If you are not here it is your choice." That doesn't really apply, just a funny recollection.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Another question ...
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:34 PM
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“ We were not made to handle that responsibility, and here we all are. “
So we were made to be robots? Beings without the free will to choose good or evil?
Is that what you’re saying?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: Another question ...
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:45 PM
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Being robots and leaving moral agency to the creator are not the same thing. Charlie Duke, Apollo 16 lander pilot, is not a robot. It is true, however, that most people resort to any and all justifications and arguments to avoid giving it up.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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But there's a difference between being responsible for the
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Another question ... ] |
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choices we do make, which you are talking about, and I agree with, and being responsible for choices that you didn't know exist or have any way of knowing were available.
It's my belief that God would not create or allow a situation where people he loved were doomed to hell when they never had a chance to choose otherwise. And I'm totally satisfied that people who have never heard of Jesus or the bible do not have that choice available to them.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: But there's a difference between being responsible for the
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:51 PM
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Your second paragraph might be right. I will add only that it seems we are not held responsible for whether we know Jesus or not, or for what reason, but for our chosen lost state. A person who knows about Jesus, yet rejects him, is not lost for eternity because of that. He already was, by his own choice. So, I do not agree with your summary last sentence, but I do not see it as something we cant agree to disagree about.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 6, 2023, 2:07 PM
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friendly discussion. I am curious as to what choice we made that makes us lost for eternity unless we surrender to Jesus.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 6, 2023, 4:50 PM
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While the theological answer is, "In the day you eat of it you will surely die", practically I know that is/was me. I was independent of him, a choice I made.
If I bail A out of jail, but not B because he rejected or didn't know about my offer, B will be judged not on that but on his prior actions. If he were to raise that as a defense, the judge would say, "I am judging only you and your actions, nothing else." If the judge were to then say, "I am granting you only what you have chosen", B has little complaint, imo.
You ask good questions that lead to good discussions.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:04 PM
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> If I bail A out of jail, but not B because he rejected or didn't know about my offer, B will be judged not on that but on his prior actions. If he were to raise that as a defense, the judge would say, "I am judging only you and your actions, nothing else." If the judge were to then say, "I am granting you only what you have chosen", B has little complaint, imo.
This I follow, it makes sense.
It still doesn't answer his question: "I am curious as to what choice we made that makes us lost for eternity unless we surrender to Jesus."
I have the same question, what choice, precisely, made us lost for eternity? I don't recall making any such choice.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 6, 2023, 8:05 PM
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I think the answer was in the sentence above that quote. "In the day you eat of it ...". Ask again if that doesn't answer your question.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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If I understand, I think you are saying that all of us are
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Aug 6, 2023, 8:39 PM
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automatically sinners, by our very nature, and therefore unworthy of heaven - unless we surrender our souls to Jesus, or for people who lived before Jesus, surrender to the future messiah, who turned out to be Jesus.
I can kind of understand how some people would think God would send people to hell, or allow them to go to hell, as a form of punishment, or to keep sin out of heaven. What I don't understand, is why, if God truly loves all of us, he would deny the opportunity to get into heaven to anyone by allowing them to be in situations where they will never know about Jesus, and therefore never be able to surrender to him. If surrender to Jesus is the only way, then so many people never have a chance and are instead doomed to hell through no fault of their own. That is nonsensical, and I don't buy it. That's what I mean when I say there has to be more to the story.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: If I understand, I think you are saying that all of us are
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:26 AM
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I deleted this answer. Is covered at the bottom of the thread. I like stories better anyway. 
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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God created the stars, moon and everything but His angels...
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Aug 7, 2023, 6:44 AM
[ in reply to If I understand, I think you are saying that all of us are ] |
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and man to do exactly as they were designed. To the angels and man God gave free will. I admit, the sun, stars and moon glorify God but their glory is not comparable to the glory God receives from a being which is able to choose whether to glorify God or not.
Do we want robots or children, wait, maybe that's not the right question. Do you want a wife or a blowup doll?
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: God created the stars, moon and everything but His angels...
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Aug 7, 2023, 8:48 AM
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According to Genesis that’s exactly what we were before the fall.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Not so.
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Aug 7, 2023, 6:01 PM
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Adam walked with God in the cool of the evening. When has God walked with the stars, Moon or Sun? There's not fellowship with them.
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All-In [29879]
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 6, 2023, 9:56 PM
[ in reply to Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the ] |
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It sounds like you are talking about original sin, which would contradict that anyone made the choice on their own after adam/eve. It was made for us.
So, is there a choice I made that you are referring to other than something adam/eve supposedly did?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 7, 2023, 10:19 AM
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I see that you keep upvoting without answering. So I’m assuming this means you are a Calvinist or something like it?
Your answers leave no room for free will.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: Absolutely we can agree to disagree, I appreciate the
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Aug 7, 2023, 5:45 PM
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Ha! Yes. I figured your upvote was already destined, so I might as well give it to you.
No, you asked an interesting question, and I thought, "I need to think about that", but then got involved in other answers in this thread. The thread has become too long for meaningful conversation. But that's fine, means its a good subject.
As to how original sin works, I don't know. It is a manmade term, not used in the NT. I would not personally claim it or defend it, for that reason if for no other. The idea that we inherited a sin nature from the fall is discussed in the NT. However, concepts like the age of accountability would indicate that while we were born into a human culture of independence from God, it is a choice we all make. A self examination tells me I have certainly done that. At what point? I don't know. I don't have to know the exact line between day and night to know it's near midnight. I know what I became, and it's a scary thing.
16and18
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 6, 2023, 12:08 PM
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story it tells, as it was told to me by the curch, and as you and others tell it.
God, who is all powerful and loves us more than we can comprehend, created everything. For some reason, even though he didn't have to (as he is all powerful), he allows sin and evil and hell, and chooses to allow Satan to tempt all of us, who he loves, all of which contributes to situations and outcomes he supposedly does not like. Instead of eliminating those things, which he could do in the blink of an eye and still have and achieve everything he wants since he is all powerful, his fix was to send his "son", several thousand years into it all, to suffer a horrible death as a sort of price for all of our sins. God did this because he loves us so much.
There is so much wrong with that, from a logical, common sense perspective, I don't know where to begin. I can see why people thousands of years ago, when nobody could read or write and they thought the earth was flat and thought there were multiple gods, believed every aspect of that story without question. It was perfectly acceptable in such an ancient world. Mind you, I am not claiming that belief in God, or the divinity of Jesus, is outdated, not at all. I am just pointing out that the narrative, as it has always been told, is either wrong or disturbingly incomplete.
I heard a preacher on TV this morning say that Jesus "had to suffer and die on the cross". No he didn't, not if God is all-powerful, he didn't have to do anything. If he is all powerful, everything that exists only exists because he wants it to, and everything that happens, including all sin and evil and suffering exists because he wants it to. Those things would have to be part of God's plan, not things he despises or opposes. If God is all powerful and all knowing, there would be nothing "wrong" that needed to be fixed, certainly not along the continuum of time as we experience it in this dimension. In other words, God would not have had to send a great flood as a "solution" to a problem or to teach a lesson; he could have just prevented the need for it in the first place.
So now I am being told something that was never taught or even discussed in my church, that knowledge of Jesus was not necessary to salvation, only faith that at some point in time a messiah would appear. That still doesn't answer the question as to how the millions of people who never heard of Jesus or a messiah have the ability to make that choice, and why God would set it up so that such people spent eternity in the fires of hell.
Like I said, I was raised in the church and have spent a great deal of time reading the Bible. I am not suggesting there is no God, or that Jesus did not rise from the tomb; I am simply saying that the biblical story as I and so many others were taught is at best incomplete and full of things that just don't add up.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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'The wages of sin is death...'
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Aug 7, 2023, 4:07 AM
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It's that simple. That is six simple words which form a complete thought. Do not complicate the simplicity of paying for your crimes. Every city and town has laws. Every county and state has laws. The USA has laws and there are international laws governing the oceans.
There is no place on earth to escape the law; neither is there any place in the universe to escape God's law: 'The wages of sin is death!'
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CU Medallion [58448]
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But that begs the question ...
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Why does God want sin to exist? He clearly doesn't have to allow it; he is not confined or restricted by anything that makes it so he has to allow it. Therefore, he wants it to exist, but supposedly he doesn't like it. He wants it but he doesn't want it. It makes no sense at all.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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He didn't commit sin, we did.
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Aug 7, 2023, 5:59 PM
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You're not being fair here. I explained why God created man with free will and you continue to insinuate that sin is God's fault because He allowed it. Your position is that God is unjust for allowing sin to exist, as if you are a victim of God's poor ability to create.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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You are twisting what I say and deflecting and avoiding
Aug 7, 2023, 11:44 PM
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answering the questions. I have never, ever suggested that God committed sin. I have never said that sin is God's fault. I have simply pointed out the fact that God allows sin to exist. That prompts some obvious questions to anyone with a pulse whose brain is not switched off.
It's very simple - why does God allow sin, something he supposedly detests, to exist when he could accomplish absolutely anything without it?
You mentioned free will, as if that is the reason God allows sin to exist, to give man a choice, to choose God over sin. If that's the case, then okay, we're right back to my point - God wants sin to exist, it serves a purpose. He could eliminate it and let everybody into heaven, but instead he wants us to have the ability to reject him and spend eternity in hell. At least that's the story as I understand it, as it has been explained to me.
So, does God detest sin?
If so, he must be powerless to eliminate it. There must something that he can't change that forces him to allow it. Or, he wants sin to exist to serve his purpose. Help me understand which it is.
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All-In [29879]
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Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 7, 2023, 5:24 AM
[ in reply to I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the ] |
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Smiling Tiger®
Tagged you 'cause the thread is pretty long
I'm kind of where you are - the three-word version being "Why the game?" "Why not just peace and harmony forever?
I've got no personal answers, but I see all religions attempts to answer that question in their own way. And they are honest and genuine attempts, based on personal experiences and understandings of the fathers of those religions.
The Taoists say, "Who knows? Just go with the flow and enjoy the show. You can't change it so just roll with it. Accept. The Jews say, "Follow our rules and it will all work out." Obey. The Christians say "Have faith and you'll be Ok." Believe. And so on.
All of those answers provide a way to navigate the mystery of life, but none of them really answer why things are the way they are in the first place. That truly is a whole other question, as you are on to.
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Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 7, 2023, 1:34 PM
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Fordtunate Son
A serious question:
Your answer includes this: "The Christians say "Have faith and you'll be Ok." Believe."
That has been addressed as inaccurate, in this thread. Sure, some Christians might say, "Just believe". The comment was "The Christians ..."; IE, the Christian position. That is not the case.
I'm not coming down on you: this characterization comes up in almost any conversation with any skeptic. So, the question: Why is it important to the skeptic that this mischaracterization be presented as Christianity?
Is it possible that if the actual position is presented, the skeptic's argument of 'no uniqueness' can't do down that road? The position that all religions do the same thing in different ways, including Christianity in that pot, would no longer be valid. Is this perhaps why this known mischaracterization is used?
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All-In [29879]
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Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 7, 2023, 4:46 PM
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Sure. No offense or stereotype intended. That was an off-the-cuff over generalization or broad brush by me. It was what I was taught when I attended church, but I’ve no doubt my particular churches were hardly mainstream Christianity. As I’ve said before, we didn’t handle snakes, but we knew the people who did 😊.
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All-In [29879]
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Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 7, 2023, 5:08 PM
[ in reply to Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the ] |
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Yo you larger point, yes, if the argument is presented differently, that could change the ‘everything the same thing in different ways view, but in fairness to others, I think they’d have to be given the chance to make their specific cases as well.
That’s a clunky way of saying that if there is a God, he could come to different people in different ways. And the only real way I know to be respectful to all is to say, yes, you are all correct if you tell me that’s how God came to you…as a sacrifice for our sins, as a perpetual lotus, or as a Great White Spirit on the American Plains.
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All-In [29879]
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Re: I have, all of my life. There's something wrong with the
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Aug 7, 2023, 5:18 PM
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I think that if I can’ t tell them they are right in what they believe, I’d have to tell them they are wrong, which would entail me essentially saying ‘I know your personal experiences better than you do.’ Which I’m sure would get me a hearty laugh from them at the least, if not an evil eye or worse…
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Your position is uncommonly objective for a nonbeliever.***
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Aug 7, 2023, 7:21 PM
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All-In [29879]
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Re: Your position is uncommonly objective for a nonbeliever.***
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Aug 7, 2023, 8:21 PM
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Well, I'm not exactly an unbeliever anymore, either. Like Johnny Cash, I walk the line....
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Your testimony blesses me.
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:28 AM
[ in reply to Re: I am not following you. At all. ] |
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Thank you, it's a fresh reminder of that fateful day when I bowed before God and gave my heart and soul into His keep.
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 8:15 PM
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In early years I was taken to a small town Baptist Church where if the bible said hell was a lake of fire, that is what it was. Nah, I don't think so, so pretty much dropped the whole thing. Not going to fool me with that. Details upon request, but by age 35 what I had made of life was asking me who was fooling who. I wish I had had a book like yours earlier. I've come to think it's all true, to the point of literalness but without an actual lake.
If we say a person is burning with envy, is that literal or allegorical?
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Legend [17918]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 8:55 PM
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I will keep this short...
God was known, and worshiped in the ancient world. This is evident when Abraham meets Melchizedek:
Genesis 14:18-19 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said: “Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth..."
Abraham, however, would became the father of Israel - the chosen nation though which God would made Himself known through the Messianic promise. The relationship God has with Israel is "rocky" to say the least. This is the lineage, though, through which Jesus comes. (Grace)
When Jesus arrived on the scene as a man, in the flesh, He Himself then said this: John 14:6 "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
So, God was worshiped by the ancient people, but He began a new work through Abraham. That work would bring into the world the nation of Israel and the Messiah - Jesus, who stated no one goes to heaven but through Himself.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 9:16 PM
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For those of you saying the doctrine of the messiah was present in the Old Testament including in Genesis, remember that it was not composed until around 700-500 BC after the Jews had returned from exile.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 11:15 PM
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You should read genesis better. Or study up on protoevengelium: https://www.gotquestions.org/protoevangelium.html What is the protoevangelium (proto-evangelium / proto evangelium)? When is the Gospel first mentioned or prophesied?
Though, I did give you a thumbs up for consistency.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:28 PM
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Point is the Old Testament didn't reach it's final form until a few hundred years before Christ.
Also it's odd that the jews were not looking for the type of messiah that early christians claim Jesus was.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 7, 2023, 1:00 PM
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Genesis is attributed to a date of 1400 bce.
The Jews were looking for a Messiah. Defining "type" within their "expectations" was the problem. The Pharisees, etc, believed the Messiah would come and establish his kingdom upon arrival - and cast out all of the [gentiles] when He came. It's not odd that they were mistaken on the nature, and character, for/of the Messiah.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For ] |
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"To explain the Bible’s contradictions, repetitions and general idiosyncrasies, most scholars today agree that the stories and laws it contains were communicated orally, through prose and poetry, over centuries. Starting around the 7th century B.C., different groups, or schools, of authors wrote them down at different times, before they were at some point (probably during the first century B.C.) combined into the single, multi-layered work we know today.
Of the three major blocks of source material that scholars agree comprise the Bible’s first five books, the first was believed to have been written by a group of priests, or priestly authors, whose work scholars designate as “P.”
https://www.history.com/news/who-wrote-the-bible
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All-In [29879]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 10:26 PM
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Really good question, and really good answers by the usual cast of favorites. I'm not sure that in all the years I was a practicing Christian, in my youth and young adulthood, that it even came up, to me or anyone in the churches I attended.
To the specific question: "When...THE ONLY WAY into heaven," I think my assumption back then was that it was at Jesus's birth. Naturally, that creates some theological complications since the Jews also worship the same God. And so if God couldn't be reached except through Jesus, how did Jews get to Heaven before Jesus was born?
To be honest, my churches mainly only thought of ourselves, in retrospect. How others may have gotten Heaven, or not, never even came up in my recollection. We were more concerned with US getting there, lol.
I am certain that I wasn't taught that it went back to creation, though. I would have remembered that. God went back to creation, obviously, but Jesus as a conduit to afterlife was after his birth. Parsing it any farther than that, say, "at death, or "at resurrection", or "at belief" was outside of our interest as well.
We just focused on the "believe" part, and didn't really investigate or question beyond that.
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 5, 2023, 11:05 PM
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Same here. To be fair, I was tuned out by later teen years, and then gone. Maybe the adults were discussing it, I don't know.
Maybe it is one of those know-it-when-I-see-it concepts. I'm sure you're familiar with Hebrews 11, the hall of fame of faith, the listing of those who "by faith" knew God. Where is the line between those people, and the pharisees who stood on the keeping of the Law? Both sets are Jewish, one set is known by God, the other Jesus called a "brood of vipers". It seems to be a fine line. I will propose that it is not.
Atheists often define faith as something like, "Believing in something with no evidence". None of the Hebrews examples are noted for what they believed. None thought they were earning anything by good behavior or belief. Instead, each took actions based on what they believed God to be, which was evidence of a surrendered spirit, which Hebrews calls faith. Pharisees were all about intellectual belief and behavior, while those in Hebrews 11 were about spirit and faith. One about self, the other about Jesus. Miles apart. Seems closer in a philosophical discussion, but in practice is not. Each person knows which one he/she is.
It is a little simplistic to say that Rahab and I surrendered to the same Jesus, but that is the gist of it. And she wasn't even Jewish. And she was a, well ... A girl has to get by, you know?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 6, 2023, 4:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For ] |
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So much worry about where one goes when they die. If one is everlasting, then death is not a thought. First and foremost, grace is the greatest gift that he gives us. I believe there will be a time when it will be perfected in me. But, being everlasting is, while secondary to grace, pretty nice.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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Re: I am reading a book called "Reading the Bible Again For
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Aug 6, 2023, 3:28 AM
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God draws you to him through the light. I believe that this has happened to people that have never heard of Jesus. But, I believe those that have experienced this will ultimately understand that this was from Christ.
The cross was an event that was given to humanity to understand God's love (sacrifice) for humanity.
I believe, as John said, 'in the beginning was the word '
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Interesting. So knowledge of God and acceptance of
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:02 AM
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and surrender to Jesus or the messiah are not required for salvation. Or, God just gives everyone this knowledge, or knowing, or whatever you want to call it, by drawing them in through the light. So if you grow up in and spend all of your life in a remote jungle with no contact with the outside world, God will come to you, draw you in through the light, and bestow the knowledge of salvation through Jesus so that you have the opportunity to get to heaven.
Is there any evidence that God reaches all such people in this way? Or, is it just a way to explain how it could possibly happen? Or, is it possible that a lot of people throughout history have never known about the God of the bible, and the way to biblical salvation?
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Hall of Famer [24121]
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Re: Interesting. So knowledge of God and acceptance of
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Aug 6, 2023, 8:44 AM
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For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God—not by works, lest any man should boast.For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath beforehand ordained, that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:8-10 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians2:8-10&version=KJ21
Ultimately, it is through Christ. But, I think Christ comes to people that don't know what that word means. I believe if those people could read, and they read John 14:20, they would be like, "Yeah, that's what happened to me."
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CU Medallion [58448]
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So, a person can accept Jesus Christ as personal savior and
Aug 8, 2023, 6:58 AM
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surrender to him, as has been discussed in this thread, without ever hearing of or having any knowledge of Jesus Christ? I understand it is through faith, and I'm cool with that, but faith in what? I thought salvation came only through faith in Jesus, and how can you have faith in something you have no knowledge of?
That is nonsensical. I don't buy it. How do you accept or surrender to something you are not aware even exists?
You suggest that if such people could read, they would know that Jesus had revealed himself to them. But they can't read, and they don't know. That's the whole point.
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Hall of Famer [24121]
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Re: So, a person can accept Jesus Christ as personal savior and
Aug 8, 2023, 10:54 AM
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It depends on who you think Jesus is as to whether it makes sense. Do you think Jesus was a man that was on Earth just to give parables and moral lessons, or is he the moving power of the universe?
It's kind of like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. They were born well before Jesus came to the Earth, yet he still saved them.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I was always taught that Jesus was very much a man,
Aug 8, 2023, 9:48 PM
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just like you and me, but was also the son of God, and that he and the father were of one essence and one nature.
As for the three that were thrown into the firey furnace, they had knowledge of and faith in the God of the bible, and perhaps in a future messiah, which would turn out to be Jesus, or you could surmise that the God they had faith in was Jesus, the moving power of the universe, even if they did not know him by that name. Either way, they had knowledge of him before they had faith in him. I'm talking about people who have no such knowledge of the God of the bible, and therefore can have no such faith.
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Hall of Famer [24121]
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Re: I was always taught that Jesus was very much a man,
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Aug 9, 2023, 2:54 AM
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Yes, I believe that Jesus on Earth was God in the flesh. He is also, as John described, the 'Word' of God. This means he is the moving/creating power of God.
I think it may be a bit of a stretch to think that S,M,& A had some sort of special knowledge of Jesus before the heat was on. As far as belief in the God of the 'Bible', it wasn't from reading it, as there was no such thing as the Bible at that time. Moses never read about the God of the Bible. Either way, he certainly came to them. I think sometimes, we try to wrap these things up a little too neatly.
Message was edited by: p6fuller®
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Would you agree that there is only one true God,
Aug 9, 2023, 9:51 AM
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the God that is described in the bible, that Moses and Abraham spoke of and followed, and that is THE God that S,M, & A had knowledge of and placed their faith in? Whether they read about him or not, their faith wasn't in some malleable nothing; it was a God with specific characteristics, and those characteristics have not changed over time. In other words, the God who came to save them was not a pagan god worshipped by non-Jewish, non-Christian cultures. They had knowledge of that specific God, and that knowledge preceded their faith, which led to their salvation. Whether that knowledge came from actual reading is irrelevant; they lived in an environment or culture where they learned about God in a normal, natural way, whether it was reading, going to school or church, or hearing about it from others. Somehow, they learned about God, and practiced that religion.
The truth is, millions or perhaps billions of people, never had that knowledge, because they had no way to learn about God, as nobody around them was exposed to that knowledge. Now, if you are claiming that God in some way comes to every person and bestows that knowing upon them in a way that gives them an opportunity to surrender, then we're really talking about a stretch, which is just a way to rationalize and make it work to fit the predetermined belief. In my opinion, of course.
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CU Medallion [60056]
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I think we all have a very personal journey
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:11 AM
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that we take with religion….any religion. I don’t really want to get into how I feel, but I can say that my life is better and my circle of friends are tighter when I attend church, read a bible verse or two each day and say prayers with my kids every night. It just is what it is.
I think that you are “saved” when you realize what the story of Jesus has for you and when he comes into your heart. It’s not when some screaming preacher tells you it’s the right time or when confirmation class is over. It’s when you decide that you feel his tug and pull on your heart and accept it. Some people will feel it and fight it, some won’t feel it at all for a long time and it’s a struggle. But you will know if you seek it.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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I pretty much agree and feel the same.
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Aug 6, 2023, 12:14 PM
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I just don't believe a loving God would create a reality in which so many people would never have the opportunity to know about Jesus, and thereby be doomed to hell from the start. There has to be more to the story that we have never been taught, and isn't included or clear in the bible.
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CU Medallion [60056]
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I can’t wrap my mind around the comment
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:06 PM
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That is hear from MANY Baptist types…..you see a homeless person and they say, “But by the grace of god that could be me”. Or you hear a crazy story about a 3 year old shot in the face in a drive by shooting, “but by the grace of god, that could have been my child”.
So God didn’t care about those people? God only blessed you?
What about growing up under Sharia law and having some foreign country bomb the #### out of your Country. Would you not hate them too? You don’t understand freedom and choice. Not sympathizing at all, but the simpletons of the rooted SBC or Pentacostals won’t acknowledge it all.
That is why I have my relationship with God that I share with my wife and my kids. We have a good Methodist church and I don’t really agree with a lot, but enough to make it work.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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Yep - kinda the same here.***
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Aug 6, 2023, 1:21 PM
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All-TigerNet [12592]
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Re: I can’t wrap my mind around the comment
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Aug 6, 2023, 2:59 PM
[ in reply to I can’t wrap my mind around the comment ] |
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I especially detest the prosperity gospel crowd such as Joel Osteen. Being a committed Christian is actually quite difficult and a price will be paid at some point.
God is less interested in our happiness and more in our holiness.
When I see these hucksters stating that with just the right amount of faith, we'll have healthy and prosperous lives. That is simply not true.
I guess Osteen, et al need to think of the deaths of the apostles. It is thought that only John died a natural death and the others met horrifying and violent ends.
I would submit that the Apostles had more faith in the tip of their pinky then some of these TV types.
I do believe in God and I do believe in Christ as the vehicle for salvation, but I also believe God is not pulling all the strings in each event that occurs in our lives good or bad. Does God choose the winner of a football game or that an 88 yr old survives while a 3 year old dies in a tornado. I think not.
I wish I had most of the answers, but doubt is not necessarily antithetical to faith either.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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I agree with you.
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Aug 7, 2023, 4:45 AM
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There are serious misconceptions about God's relationship with Israel and His relationship with us. God proved himself to Israel by blessings them with wealth, health and family. The concept that such blessings are a gift of God today, is a mistake unless you assume the talent, skill development and desire to work hard and spend thriftily are God given.
Those folks who preach 'Give to God and He will make you wealthy,' are all collecting donations on God's behalf. I sent children to a private school which was owned and operated by a family which believe giving and doing for them was giving and doing for God. When I realized that I withdrew my children.
I believe God blessed Israel with wealth as a shadow of the coming of the Holy Spirit which would make earthly wealth seen trivial. I understand that is contrary to what so many Christians believe but wealth is not a blessing of God other than the natural talent and focus a man has to build wealth.
With most wealthy people being dependent upon their wealth more than they depend on God it's an easy position to defend. It's even easier to defend using God's Word.
Matthew 6:
"19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Jesus makes our hearts perfectly clean, enough so that His Holy Spirit can dwell within us and so He does. That's worth more than the entire world to me.
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Re: I can’t wrap my mind around the comment
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Aug 6, 2023, 7:10 PM
[ in reply to I can’t wrap my mind around the comment ] |
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It's definitely less "grace of god" and more of, luck of the draw of where you were born and what you believe.
Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly be Hindu if we were born in India. It has very little to do with choice.
Also, almost no none in here would believe the bible if it was presented to them fresh today as an adult. These ideas were implanted at a young age for the vast majority of us.
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CU Medallion [58448]
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"Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 6, 2023, 8:50 PM
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be Hindu if we were born in India. It has very little to do with choice."
That is a cold hard fact. Billions of people have had very little chance to know about Jesus and learn about tha God of the bible, and perhaps billions more throughout history have had zero chance. So, if surrender to Jesus is the only way into heaven, that means that God is alowing billions of people he loves no opportunity to get into heaven, and instead be doomed to an eternity in the fires of hell.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 6, 2023, 10:01 PM
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Correct, it's pretty obvious that religions are just stories that grew from localized beliefs and really don't make sense once you consider the rest of the globe.
It also blows the "free will" argument out of the water. You don't get to choose where/when/to whom you are born, which have, by far, the greatest effect on your religious "choice".
There is no getting around the fact that your religion is HIGHLY correlated to those things that you have no control over.
If any of this religious stuff is real, then the Calvinist are probably right. It's just not up to the individual.
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All-In [29879]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 6:54 AM
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I'm gonna ramble a bit, but I'll come back around in a sec. I'm not really religious anymore, but I might be semi-spiritual. That is, it does seem to me sometimes that there is something "behind the curtain."
And it's the little things, the everyday things, that get to me. Things that have nothing to do with me at all, that really strike me the most.
That is, nothing to do with my possible need for salvation, or even the concept of sin, or any possible afterlife, or any Western, or probably Eastern, religious ideas.
For instance, Mrs. Fordt and I were taking a walk this weekend, and we stumbled on a bird's nest knocked out of a tree in a storm. No birds or eggs inside, but where does a bird go to school to learn to build a nest? Or a spider to build a web?
If you've ever seen a time-lapsed video of a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly, it will blow you away. How does a caterpillar reorganize itself after dissolving itself into soup? It's like a puddle of melted butter spontaneously un-melting itself back into a stick of butter. Nature generally moves from order to chaos - entropy. Butterflies are the exact opposite of that.
We stumbled on some potted plants sitting on a bench during our walk. They hadn't been watered enough, and over time the roots (about the thickness of a thin pencil) had grown through the holes in the bottom of the pot. But they didn't stop on the surface of the bench itself, where rain-water might have accumulated. That would make sense. They grew right on down to the ground, down about 2 feet of open air. Now, water is never going float between the surface of the bench and the ground. So why not stop growing at the bench surface? And they didn't go into the ground at the spot they hit the ground. That would make sense, too.
They went along the ground for a few feet till they found a divot with standing water in it. Now that's just damm creepy when you get down to it. How does that plant know where to put its root? It sure didn't survey the area and grow an inch a month to get to that one spot. Or did it? Things like that floor me.
My point being that all religions, in some sense, are attempts to explain stuff like that too, albeit indirectly. Call the answer God, or Brahma, or Allah, or define it however, but there is mystery in the universe. We can't even figure out the things we DO perceive...what about the things we don't perceive? Like a moment of Deja Vu, or the thing that wakes you up in the middle of the night when you sense a friend might be in danger? A glass darkly, indeed.
On the one end of the spectrum there is a singular entity, or force, behind and controlling it all. On the other end of the spectrum it is all random chance. Where does the truth lie?
Divine Intervention, or Random Luck? Ok, early morning off-topic ramble over.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:34 AM
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I'm going to ramble a bit as well. The first part is, I completely understand and am completely taken aback when I see the beauty and complexity in nature. It seems almost impossible for some of the things that you described to happen naturally.
However, two major problems emerge when someone wants to jump from that to saying it was supernatural.
1. We CAN explain it through the process of evolution. Check out slime mold. It doesn't have a brain and can "solve" a maze efficiently to find food. They can literally find the shortest path through a maze. The more we study it, the more the mystery disolves and the mechanisms at work become more clear: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-slime-molds-remember-where-they-ate/ How Slime Molds Remember Where They Ate Scientific American is the essential guide to the most awe-inspiring advances in science and technology, explaining how they change our understanding of the world and shape our lives.
2. My "awe" with nature tends to disappear when watch a documentary of a lion sinking its teeth into a baby gazelle and ripping it to shreds. Those parts of creation are either left out or given bad explanations. Creationists will tell you that man ate from a tree and caused the fall of man and nature. So the baby gazelle's whole existence was to be born and suffer a great death. THAT is part of an omniscient, benevolent being? Where is the love in that? What did the gazelle do to deserve it? Not to mention, this is but a drop in the ocean of the pain and suffering that goes on.
> On the one end of the spectrum there is a singular entity, or force, behind and controlling it all. On the other end of the spectrum it is all random chance. Where does the truth lie?
It's a great question. I don't know. The only thing I can say is that I've seen ample evidence for natural explanation and nothing but claims for the supernatural. I haven't been able to verify a single supernatural claim, and nobody seems to be able to provide any evidence other than hearsay for it.
> Divine Intervention, or Random Luck? Ok, early morning off-topic ramble over.
I just want to point out that evolution is not random luck. The scientific community does not claim that.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 11:11 AM
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If I understand what you are saying, that article is a very interesting explanation of what, but not how. We know RNA/DNA exists, for example, and we know its function, but there is no explanation for how it came to be. Hypothetically, one might be found (a Nobel will result), but I am thinking one won't be. That is another subject - not trying to hijack to that - am just saying that showing what at thing is does not explain how it came to be. Tell me if I misunderstood that.
My understanding is that evolution is about randomness. The mechanism, as I understand it, is random gene mutation, with superior mutations surviving. Darwin's birds had all sorts of random variations. A slightly longer beak is a random gene change. That bird does a little better, has a slightly better chance of survival, that gene gets passed on. Strictly speaking, that is adaptation only, no new species created, but that is the process, is it not? That is still considered to be the mechanism, no?
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:19 PM
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> If I understand what you are saying, that article is a very interesting explanation of what, but not how. We know RNA/DNA exists, for example, and we know its function, but there is no explanation for how it came to be. Hypothetically, one might be found (a Nobel will result), but I am thinking one won't be. That is another subject - not trying to hijack to that - am just saying that showing what at thing is does not explain how it came to be. Christians are rightfully accused sometimes of "God of the gaps", but atheists are just as often guilty of "evolution of gaps". Tell me if I misunderstood that.
I do think you are slightly misunderstanding it. I think you are conflating abiogensis with evolution. I 100% agree with you that we don't know how abiogensis happened; I think we have some plausible ideas of how it might have and that it was a natural cause, but no, it is not currently "solved" like evolution is.
My argument above has nothing to do with abiogensis; it is purely based on the evidence that things have evolved from simple to complex organisms and that we understand the basic mechanisms that allow for the complexity we see today.
Also, I'm sure some atheists commit a similar fallacy that you are suggesting with "evolution of the gaps". I don't think I've done that here because I'm not inserting it in a place that we don't have evidence for. I will literally say, "I don't know" if I don't know or I can give my best guess. I'm not going to assert exactly how abiogensis naturally happened because that would be a lie.
Evolution happened. Abiogensis happened, what is up for debate is if abiogensis was natural or supernatural. I personally haven't seen evidence for anything supernatural, so my best guess is that there is no reason to think that it was supernatural. If that changes, I will change my mind.
> The mechanism, as I understand it, is random gene mutation, with superior mutations surviving. Darwin's birds had all sorts of random variations. A slightly longer beak is a random gene change. That bird does a little better, has a slightly better chance of survival, that gene gets passed on. Strictly speaking, that is adaptation only, no new species created, but that is the process, is it not? That is still considered to be the mechanism, no?
That is somewhat correct. Yes, genetic mutations are random, but the mechanism of natural selection is not. I completely understand how unintuitive that is, but no evolutionary scientist will tell you that evolution by natural selection is a random process.
This is the reason you see bad arguments like "evolution claims a tornado could go through a junkyard and create a 747". That's just a severe misunderstanding of what natural selection is.
If it was truly random, then yeah, I 100% agree it couldn't create something more ordered than it started with. Natural selection is the opposite of random, though.
For example, if a giraffe gives birth to two baby giraffes, and one has a random mutation that makes its neck slightly longer, it is not random that the giraffe with the longer neck has access to slightly more leaves at the top of the tree. That is an emergent property of having a longer neck. This gives that giraffe and it's offspring a slightly better chance of getting food and thus surviving.
Again, yes, the mutation was random, the result of that mutation is not. No matter how a giraffe got a longer neck, whether God created it or a random mutation did, it is still a fact that the longer necked giraffe has a slight advantage. That organism now has a slightly better chance of surviving. THAT is the natural selection mechanism, and it is not random at all.
You wouldn't say a 7-foot person having an advantage over a 4-foot person in basketball is random, no matter how they were created. The advantage is an emergent property of the height difference.
> Strictly speaking, that is adaptation only, no new species created, but that is the process, is it not?
That process that creates adaptations is the exact same process that creates new species. A lot of small changes over time add up to large changes.
> That is still considered to be the mechanism, no?
Pretty much yes.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:45 PM
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Got it. Thanks.
Perhaps where people in this conversation talk past each other is the fact that the mutations are random, but that doesn't mean the ones that stick are random. A bad mutation gets weeded out, the advantageous ones stay. That is not random. But the mutation that created the advantageous one is. That does legitimately lead to some mathematical calculations that get way out there. I am not familiar with those, except for the one about protein aligning to create rna, so don't know whether there are legit ones out there or not. But the idea of looking at the chance of random benefits is legit, it would seem to me.
But sure, natural selection is guiding force, not a random occurrence. But the genetic change is random.
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Spot on. To say that all religions are man's attempt to
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:56 AM
[ in reply to Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly ] |
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explain the mysteries of life in this universe is not the same as saying a particular religion, or all religions, are false, or that there is no God, or no afterlife. It's just an honest observation. I agree that all of the great religions are born from the same desire to explain and understand those mysteries, which generally gives some structure, order, and deeper meaning to life for us humans.
Most of the great religions were started in times and cultures that directly shaped their views of morality and their concept of God or Gods. To ignore that influence on the end product is willful ignorance.
Some religions, including Christianity, have a major focus on getting into heaven (and avoiding hell) after you die. I was raised Christian, and I still believe in most Christian teachings, including the divinity of a resurrected Christ, but I do not believe in the literal infallibility of the bible, which was written and edited by sincere, devout, but fallible men, or that an all-powerful, all-loving God would allow anybody he loves to spend eternity in the fires of hell. There would be no reason, and no purpose; it makes no sense whatsoever. I think religion has tremendous value if it promotes love, harmony, and moral responsibility and behavior, by reminding us of our smallness and that there is indeed something behind the curtain, and I think that is it's real legitimate purpose.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 10:55 AM
[ in reply to Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly ] |
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A Monarch butterfly hatches as a caterpillar in MissTulsa's garden. It grows a while, does that chrysalis thing you described, flies around a bit, lays more eggs and dies. From birth to death, about 5 weeks. This continues on for about 5 generations, or from Spring through Summer. At that point the 5th generation does not reproduce, but - and I am not making this up - flies all the way to one specific city in Mexico, a place none of those Monarchs have ever seen. Whoa. That generation lasts the entire winter and starts back in the spring, with the reproductive cycle starting again on the way here. Monarchs arrive here, having never been here, and arrive in Mexico, never having been there. Well alrighty then.
I don't have any problem with the belief that evolution was God's way of producing the species. There are unanswered problems with that, but we won't devolve into that here. I'll just say, "Fine". But I am not ready to say that those guys with essentially no brain know where that city in Mexico is via 'the miracle of evolution'.
MissTulsa read that story while also discovering that Monarchs are on the endangered list. Their caterpillars eat only milkweed, which was once in abundance but no longer is. Miss being Miss, she hopped right up and started planting milkweed just for them. She had a beautiful garden, but milkweed is not an attractive plant at all. But she has tons of it, and to her it is beautiful and it makes her smile. Just for fun she brings a few caterpillars inside every summer to have them transform in a mesh cage, just to see it. When they emerge she lets them go, and they fly into the garden and start looking for nectar. One fall she had one emerge late, sometime in September. She took it out, opened the cage, and it flew straight up, turned south and was gone. Headed to Mexico? Seemed to be. Maybe we had hatched one of the '5th generation' ones. But I don't think it was the miracle of evolution.
--------------------------------
More Monarch biology, don't have to read:
Tests seem to show a built in compass oriented to the sun. Tethered 5th gen. Monarchs, caged so that they can see only the sun, try to fly southwest. Take those same ones to the west coast, and they don't seem to know to go southeast. So, there is an imprinted compass in that tiny not-even-a-brain, somehow. And that orientation flips 180 degrees by some mechanism, to go south rather than north as its ancestor did.
Of course they are highly affected by winds and easily get blown off course, by a lot. But they still make it. So, the orientation to the sun has to change as that happens, and extremely accurately, to arrive at that one city. How do they not get lost? Don't know, but one thing that has been shown is that they will never cross the point of divergence. If the wind blows them off, and they then have to turn, they will never cross that point. I think I heard an Apollo astronaut jokingly say about finding their way back to the LEM in that little car: "Never, ever, cross your tracks." No, wouldn't want to do that 200K miles from home.
We are pretty sophisticated in electrons, ones and zeros, etc. To get from Greenville SC to that city in Mexico would take how much data and how many lines of code? The program can't go on a preplanned route, because the actual route will change randomly, and by a lot. All that has to be taken into account. How much data, how many lines of code? More than their not-even-a-brain can hold, I'm guessing. Our brains can't do it. Theirs can. But ours can do other things. That's about as far as I can think about it.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 1:25 PM
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> I'll just say, "Fine". But I am not ready to say that those guys with essentially no brain know where that city in Mexico is via 'the miracle of evolution'.
Right but you are willing to invoke an even more supernatural explanation for which we can’t explain. I just don’t understand the reasoning behind making that jump.
> I don't have any problem with the belief that evolution was God's way of producing the species. There are unanswered problems with that, but we won't devolve into that here.
I would love a separate topic on this if you are up for it. I’m not aware of any unanswered problems that would nullify evolution, so I’m curious to hear if there are.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 2:05 PM
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Understood. Sure, whether God exists is a separate subject. Granted. If I happen to believe God exists, and if I see a butterfly with no brain go 2000 miles to a city he is 5 generations removed from seeing, and can get there no matter what randomly changing route he has to take, it is easy for me to say, "I'm not sure how that happened. If evolution did it, God had a hand in it."
I have no idea about the specifics of this, but if genetic mutations are random, I am going to guess that the chances of those mutations lining up to first created a compass, and then destination of one city, and then the ability to get there no matter the changes ... I don't think the math would work, regardless of natural selection. But that's just a fun thing. I have no information about it.
Anyway, sure, would love to talk about that. I am about to have 150 retaining wall blocks and several yards of gravel delivered, I hope in the next hour. That is going to keep me busy a while. Bring this up again when you see an appropriate moment.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 3:01 PM
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> "I'm not sure how that happened. If evolution did it, God had a hand in it."
Doesn't this just kick the can down the road though? If you don't understand a complicated thing, how does invoking an even more complicated thing that you don't understand service as an explanation whatsoever?
How is this better than just saying, I don't know how it works?
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 8:17 PM
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Kicking a can is delaying a decision or action. I'm just saying I dont know how a Monarch gets to a specific city it has never been to. I dont know because apparently no one does. In that vacuum an atheist will say evolution did it, though we dont know what it is: no other choice. Someone who believes God exists can say, "I'll hold off on that explanation for now."
In another example, an atheist must believe rna naturally formed from protein. Or that it came from a parallel universe: some propose this. Someone like me can say, "The math predicts against it. So, those angels barring the way to the tree of life might actually be there."
How is that different from God of the gaps? There are lots of things we don't know, and failure to have yet observed a thing is no indication that we won't. To explain every unknown by an outside force is clearly irrational, and is invoked less often than atheists claim. However, when the number of known observations starts to approach the reasonably possible ones, and the remaining proposals become highly unlikely, it is not irrational to say, "This looks like God's work in creation." The question of what caused the big bang is one of those. Where rna came from is starting to look like one of those. No cans involved, in any of that, I dont think.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
Aug 8, 2023, 12:46 PM
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> How is that different from God of the gaps?
The difference is the claim. I think your examples are strawmen.
> In that vacuum an atheist will say evolution did it, though we dont know what it is: no other choice. Someone who believes God exists can say, "I'll hold off on that explanation for now."
First, atheist isn't synonymous with evolution. You can be a theist and accept the fact of evolution. Anyway, evolution explains how butterfly's exist very satisfactorily. It does not claim to know the exact mechanism for things like butterfly migration. That is not a contradiction, and certainly isn't an "evolution of the gaps" type of argument. If we know with great certainty that the butterfly evolved, then it follows that its behavior did too. There is no leap of faith required there, even if there are things we still don't understand.
Also, "Someone who believes God exists can say, "I'll hold off on that explanation for now."" is just patently untrue. Religious people make claims without evidence, ALL THE TIME. They are definitely not more skeptical than non-believers.
> In another example, an atheist must believe rna naturally formed from protein. Or that it came from a parallel universe: some propose this. Someone like me can say, "The math predicts against it. So, those angels barring the way to the tree of life might actually be there."
Again, we have excellent evidence that the universe evolved naturally to the point before abiogensis happened, and that evolution happened after that point. We don't know precisely how it happened, that is true, but it is extremely odd to start talking about the supernatural when we have no evidence of that occurring either. It is reasonable to assume that it was a natural process if/until we understand the exact mechanisms.
Also, not to get off track, but "the math predicts against it" comes from that one paper you cited. It's cherry-picking if you choose that one because it supports your theory and then discard those that do not.
> However, when the number of known observations starts to approach the reasonably possible ones, and the remaining proposals become highly unlikely, it is not irrational to say, "This looks like God's work in creation." The question of what caused the big bang is one of those. Where rna came from is starting to look like one of those. No cans involved, in any of that, I dont think.
This is the main problem I have with your argument. Where does the "this looks like God's work in creation" come in logically here? How does it point to God and more specifically, how would it point to your particular God. That doesn't logically follow at all.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 8:04 PM
[ in reply to Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly ] |
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>one specific city in Mexico
Yes, that is truly amazing.
There is a West Coast version Mrs. Fordt and I stumbled into. I suppose the Butterflies can't cross the Rockies, so Easterners go to Mexico City, and Westerners go to a city(s?) in central California I can't remember the name of. Anyway, we laid on our backs with scores of other folks on a giant wooden deck and they were like stars in the sky.
Next up...salmon returning to their spawning grounds, lol
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 8:37 PM
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Ha, yes: As I understand it, they go back to nearly the same spot in the same river. Is that correct?
It would take me several moment's thought and some detailed external mapping to get to the hospital I was born in. I'm not as smart as as a salmon.
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 12:57 AM
[ in reply to "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly ] |
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The Christian position is that lostness is universal and predates any choice of religion, and is not affected by it. If talking about Christianity, it has to be on those terms. Why someone is Hindu is not relevant, imo.
A person chooses to never change his motor oil. Too restrictive, that maintenance manual. At 30,000 miles his engine starts running rough. He consults 5 mechanics. 4 say he will be fine if he starts following their specialized maintenance program. The 5th one says the damage is done and not reversible, that a new engine is needed, and that he can replace it right then. The driver chooses the advice of one of the first 4, probably the one his friend recommended. 10,000 miles later his engine seizes out in the middle of nowhere.
The 5th mechanic is later teaching a mechanics class and is telling this story. An argument develops among the students about whose fault it was that the guy was stranded in the desert. His mechanic is to blame, some said. All mechanics are wrong, others said. Some said the 5th mechanic should have made his case better. Some were even mad at the 5th mechanic: he knew he was right, so how could he let the guy drive off in that condition? All forgot the one foundational truth: The engine was ruined before the driver even started consulting mechanics, by his own fault. Nothing else about fault is relevant.
When we are that driver, most refuse to see it that way. We'll even invent a new 5th mechanic so we can blame him.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:39 AM
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> All forgot the one foundational truth: The engine was ruined before the driver even started consulting mechanics, by his own fault.
It's a pretty bad analogy when you are also claiming that the creator of the engine is omniscient, benevolent and can't be blamed for creating a failing engine when he knew with 100% certainty that it would fail and there is nothing that could be done about it.
You keep skipping the part where you show where we are at fault for having the "bad engine" in the first place. You say it was a precondition; ok, well then the person didn't make a choice by definition.
Can you tell me, precisely, where we "chose not to change our motor oil"?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
1
Aug 7, 2023, 12:24 PM
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You use the word 'you' a lot in conversations about an idea. You personalize everything. You get upset when people respond in kind. You get irritated easily at ideas you don't understand. You feel you must answer with 'you' responses. You don't think about ideas. You think about people. You get the idea. You maybe don't.
I was over the top there for a reason. That is not my actual response. No worries.
Why is this relevant? You wanted to know when 'precisely' it happened to you. If not before, it happened when you decided to be somewhat jerk-ish in this answer. I suspect it was much further back. As it was with all of us, me included.
No harm, no foul, I was just using that as an example of all of us. None of us can deny that we are responsible for who and what we are, and that it's not a good look. Blaming the Creator for what I did yesterday, by saying I don't know how I went off the rails, or that He should have stopped me, is an argument that is accepted no where else. One can start with the assumption God does not exist if one wants, but that isn't a rational reason to do so, imo.
I'm sorry you didn't like the story, which was half in fun, and which I made up as I went, so not perfect. I stand by it. The Creator didn't cause this. We are the way we are for a very good reason, one that will come to fruition, and already has for some. I understand that many people will not accept that, and won't because, imo, the subject is one's flawed identity. That's fine. I stand by the story.
If I were to amend the story, it would say that all the students in the class were currently experiencing the same problem with their motors, for the same reason, and were currently on some other mechanic's specialized maintenance program to try to fix it. The teacher, the 5th mechanic, was telling a story about them, and knows that is why the argument erupted in the class. No one wanted to admit that they were the problem, and that their plan couldn't work. We executed Jesus over it. Still do.
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
Message was edited by: CUintulsa®
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
1
Aug 7, 2023, 2:18 PM
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“ None of us can deny that we are responsible for who and what we are, and that it's not a good look. ”
Disagree. Humans for the most part are good hearted loving people.
The whole “we’re terrible and deserve hell” argument is just for those trying desperately to defend their religion.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:04 PM
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You know people with aspects of good hearts. People defending no religion have observed the darkness in the remainder of the human heart for as long as there has been written language. Many of those people are among the most respected observers and philosophers in history. Desperation is believing one has escaped that.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
1
Aug 7, 2023, 2:58 PM
[ in reply to Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly ] |
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> You use the word 'you' a lot in conversations about an idea. You personalize everything. You get upset when people respond in kind. You get irritated easily at ideas you don't understand. You feel you must answer with 'you' responses. You don't think about ideas. You think about people. You get the idea. You maybe don't.
lol what? I thought this was as cordial as we've been so far. I think the irritation is all projection.
> One can start with the assumption God does not exist if one wants, but that isn't a rational reason to do so, imo.
Why is starting with God the rational assumption to start with? There is no evidence outside of hearsay in an ancient book and people claiming (conflicting) accounts of personal experiences.
> I stand by it. The Creator didn't cause this.
Er.. what? He literally did if he's the creator.
> If I were to amend the story, it would say that all the students in the class were currently experiencing the same problem with their motors, for the same reason, and were currently on some other mechanic's specialized maintenance program to try to fix it. The teacher, the 5th mechanic, was telling a story about them, and knows that is why the argument erupted in the class. No one wanted to admit that they were the problem, and that their plan couldn't work.
Nah, it's just not an apt analogy. The example should include imperfectly made motors to begin with that the creator new would fail to be taken care of.
> We executed Jesus over it. Still do.
No we didn't. People got mad that someone was becoming a political rival and killed him. I'm not sure how you can kill someone who died 2000 years ago. If he knew would sin, then there was no choice in the matter. It was laid out before we even existed.
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
1
Aug 7, 2023, 6:01 PM
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I wasn't upset at you. Just using an opportunity to show a universal problem we all have.
I didn't say any assumption was rational. Actually, all perspectives, all arguments, have some assumed starting point. Was just saying that whatever it was we were discussing - been laying block, and I'm tired, so don't remember it all - isn't a reason for doing so.
If you think the Creator did not give us the ability to do things he would not want us to do, that is your choice. No way to argue that point one way or the other. In no other arena do we deny an authoritative person the ability to allow others to do harmful things. But if you want to apply such a thing to God, that is your choice. I think my faulty actions are my responsibility, not his. What you believe about that is up to you. Lack of personal responsibility is a current phenomenon, for sure.
If a person is responsible for his own behavior, the story is a good analogy.
If Jesus was a political rival, that rival would by definition be Pilate. Pilate found no fault with him. I'm sure you've read the account, so you know that to be the case. Yes, we executed him. The Rolling Stones, in "Sympathy For The Devil" said:
"I made #### sure that Pilate
Washed his hands, sealed his (Jesus's) fate.
I shouted out who killed the Kennedys,
When after all it was you and me."
No one has a problem with that. No one questions it because it has the ring of truth. Pilate washed his hands of the matter, turned Jesus over to religious leaders. Who is responsible for what then happened? We are. But say that in a context in which someone has to own it .... nah, wasn't me.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
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Aug 7, 2023, 7:28 PM
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There have been millions of people wrongly executed throughout history.
Even if the gospels are accurate Jesus death is nothing special of eternal praise.
What kind of egotistical prick would want to be worshipped for eternity anyway?
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Hall of Famer [24481]
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Re: "Everyone on here, including myself, would almost certainly
1
Aug 7, 2023, 8:44 PM
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Shows what awaits us. Good observation.
See below.
One who loves you and wants a relationship with you.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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No we wouldn't.
2
Aug 7, 2023, 6:49 AM
[ in reply to Re: I can’t wrap my mind around the comment ] |
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God chose us. He would have found us had we been born in a galaxy far, far away.
Thinking in temporal terms is shortsightedness and prohibits any understanding of our creator.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: No we wouldn't.
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Aug 7, 2023, 9:40 AM
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> Thinking in temporal terms is shortsightedness and prohibits any understanding of our creator.
Ok, but then, how do you know that? We are using the same shortsighted understanding, right? Again, this just sounds like another assertion without backing it up.
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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No.
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Aug 7, 2023, 7:31 PM
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I have the indwelling of God's Spirit and years of learning patients from His guidance. Answers don't appear in my mind like magic. I ask, believing that God will make me understand and know His voice so I'm not often deceived.
I've asked questions which God chooses not to give me answers for until years and years later. I know that there is a time for me to understand and that He has a reason for waiting even if I don't understand it while I'm waiting. I know the wait is to my benefit and not due to His neglect or carelessness.
You don't explain where babies come from to a 3 year old who wonders about her baby sister. You don't wait until that child is 18 to tell her what that blood running down her leg is about. Those examples are not accidental or incidental. They explain to us why God doesn't teach us too early or too late and also serve as an example to justify His timing.
Everything in this world is can teach us about God. I understand a very few of them but they are profound.
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CU Guru [1658]
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Re: No.
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Aug 8, 2023, 7:09 AM
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Ephesians 2:8-9
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Oculus Spirit [93696]
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That's how my spiritual life began.
Aug 9, 2023, 5:47 AM
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It's almost a lost concept among Christians today. Christ is the foundation and giver of our faith in Him. We've become a people who think we can learn, reason and work our way to salvation rather than trusting God and His Holy Word to birth us into His Kingdom and grow us to maturity in understanding.
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