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Orange Blooded [2053]
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What happened to the people between the time of Jesus’ death
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Apr 30, 2023, 1:03 PM
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And when the gospels were written. For example, someone living in east asia who wasn't aware of any of this and certainly had no knowledge of Jesus.
Do those people still go to hell? It seems like there is a huge gap between resurrection and the Bible getting canonized. So there wasn’t really a bible that people could just pick up and read. Did you just have to be lucky enough to hear the word from someone?
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All-In [38223]
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Nobody knows.
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Apr 30, 2023, 3:49 PM
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And if they tell you they do, they’re full of #####.
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All-In [29883]
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Re: What happened to the people between the time of Jesus’ death
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Apr 30, 2023, 4:38 PM
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I think the expansion to that question is “where did all those who died go before Jesus died?”
True, no one knows, but there are a lot of possibilities. One is that they are just in the ground. But, if there is a God, or even gods, perhaps they have gone to their versions of heaven, or hell.
My point is that there is just this overwhelming assumption that things must be one way. That some how, an all powerful, or even sufficiently powerful being, couldn’t create multiple heavens, or hells, or valhallas for that matter.
Who’s to say the Jews don’t go to one of the 10 Jewish heavens, Christian’s go to their heaven, Norse go to warrior heaven, and so forth. Why must there be one alternative for a possibly all powerful being?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: What happened to the people between the time of Jesus’ death
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Apr 30, 2023, 4:49 PM
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While that's possible, that's just speculation. I'm mostly asking about Christianity specifically, since that's what most people in this forum are familiar with.
> I think the expansion to that question is “where did all those who died go before Jesus died?”
I think that's a valid/great question. Humans were around for eons before Christianity showed up (not to mention many other religions).
Did Australopithecus have the opportunity to be saved? Or was that reserved for #### sapiens only?
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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There is another possibility. The question was about
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Apr 30, 2023, 5:13 PM
[ in reply to Re: What happened to the people between the time of Jesus’ death ] |
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the biblical take on reality, and some would say it says this:
- The "lost" condition is universal. That condition is not about Jesus, but is one we chose since Gen 2. That is who we all are.
- The solution for that condition is surrender to a Messiah and his substitutionary atonement.
- It is not necessary to know that Messiah's name. Abraham didn't, but it was 'counted unto him'. The thief on the cross maybe didn't. This is true for everyone, before and since Jesus.
- It is indeed easier for those who know who Jesus is. There is not a plan for completely equal understanding of the identity of the Messiah. The condition we are in is of our own choosing, which places no obligation on God.
One application of this is that Jesus gave to the 12 - and us - the responsibility of telling people that story. The implications of that can keep one up and night, and maybe help explain this question. For reasons we likely can't comprehend, the mission Jesus accomplished while here he then gave to us. If he had failed - and he could have - all are lost. If we don't continue it, people are lost. Those who come to know Jesus share everything with him, including that plan.
Is that "fair" to all? "Fair" is always a cultural term, changing in time and place. What we and He think of as "fair" are often not the same. Everyone, at some point, decides which they will demand.
The way it actually works likely requires an understanding of "knowledge" and "fair" that is beyond us. The above is one way of looking at what we know the bible says about this issue. IMO, none of this affects the Jesus we do know about.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: There is another possibility. The question was about
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Apr 30, 2023, 6:09 PM
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> The condition we are in is of our own choosing, which places no obligation on God.
Last I checked, we didn't create ourselves, so how did we create this condition?
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All-In [29883]
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Re: There is another possibility. The question was about
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Apr 30, 2023, 11:22 PM
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It's the concept of Original Sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and mankind's punishment is to carry that burden forever.
In Judaism, it requires an eternal cleansing of sin, like washing your clothes forever, and the burden can never be removed. In Christianity Jesus washed them for you and all you have to do is accept that he did to remove the burden.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: There is another possibility. The question was about
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May 3, 2023, 12:55 PM
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> It's the concept of Original Sin. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, and mankind's punishment is to carry that burden forever.
Right, I understand that, the issue i have with that is that nobody chose to be born/created, so it's certainly not the persons fault that they were born broken.
Therefore, we have to be saved from something we never did in the first place?
And we call that love?
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All-In [29883]
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Re: There is another possibility. The question was about
May 3, 2023, 1:52 PM
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>And we call that love?
Well, I don't  ">
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CU Medallion [58460]
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So, bottom line, you don't have to know about Jesus, much
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Apr 30, 2023, 7:03 PM
[ in reply to There is another possibility. The question was about ] |
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less accept him specifically to get into heaven and avoid an eternity in hell. That has never been mentioned or discussed in any church I have ever attended.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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I would guess it probably was. I mean, surely, you have
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Apr 30, 2023, 8:27 PM
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heard the Gen verse about Abraham, "...and it was counted unto him as righteousness." Paul quotes that verse in Romans, Ch 4. I am not saying it is true of you, but most churches I have been in have eventually mentioned, in some way, the idea that people trusting in a coming Messiah were the same as we who have trusted the known one.
But I wouldn't characterize it exactly the way you did. You're not here for me to ask clarifying questions, so I don't know exactly what you mean by "much less accept him". If by not knowing the name "Jesus", sure, I'll buy that; again, Abraham didn't. But the surrender of self to God because of one's lostness is the common element.
You'll just have to take my word on this. Because of my pre-retirement work, I know people who have been to the middle east as missionaries. Yeah, I know, dangerous. I know one there right now. There is a consistent story being told. A person will "under the radar" look for people open to hearing about who Jesus is. Soon after the first meeting, someone will say, "God told us this would happen. We just didn't know what his name was."
My best friend in the whole world said that he and another person were driving from one city to another, nothing but desert in between. Halfway there, the car shuts down. They check connections, water, everything, it wont start. The second person said, "I think there is a village not far up the road. Lets start walking." 300 yards up the road there was a boulder on the side of the road, a guy in desert robe sitting on it. As they approached he said, "Are you the God-men?"
"What are you talking about?"
"Something is missing in Islam. I can't be as good as it says I have to be. I asked God for an answer, he said to come here, that he would send someone. Are you the God-men?" (Very condensed version.)
They said, "Not exactly, but we have something you will want to hear." As they started the story the guy interrupted, "No, no, I knew God would send someone. Tell me his name."
"Jesus."
"The prophet?"
"He is not a prophet."
"So, it is him. I knew God would send someone. It was him. And He sent you to tell me."
Tom said, "I think our car is fine." They walked back, started it, and continued on.
We can discuss all day when that guy came to faith. I would say at the time he gave himself to the Savior, not when he learned his name.
I am not expecting you to believe that story: you don't know me, you don't know Tom. Either the story happened or one of us is lying. All I am saying here is that this is an example of a person believing God for a Savior before knowing his name.
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CU Medallion [58460]
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Thanks - and I don't necessarily disagree with that.
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Apr 30, 2023, 10:35 PM
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I was always told that there was one way and one way only - belief in Jesus of Nazareth as savior - as it applies to us in the here and now. The singular most important thing, and really the only thing that mattered was acceptance of him as Lord and savior, the son of God. Nobody in any Church I've ever attended, to this day, has asked during Sunday school or Prayer meeting, "What about the people who never heard of Jesus?", and while the passages you mentioned may have been brought up, the concept of anything other than the full acceptance of Jesus Christ specifically as the way to heaven has never been addressed. That includes The Southern Baptist church I grew up in, the several others I have visited on ocassion, or the Episcopal church I was baptised in and am a current member of.
I know there were millions or perhaps billions of people throught history, maybe in China or native Americans and elsewhere, who lived and died never knowing of the messiah of the bible. I know there are infants who die having never known. We've sort of been over this ground before, but I have trouble with the idea of a loving (as we understand "love") God allowing those people to burn in hell for eternity.
Now, I know I can discuss this with you and a few others here on TNet, and I can read thousands of articles addressing this very topic on the internet, with answers and opinions all over the place. Yet it's never been the topic of any sermon or Sunday school lesson I have ever heard in any church I've attended. This, as well as the "problem of evil" (which we've dicussed at great length, and I don't care to go over again at this point) are not explained or even addressed by the simplistic story and teachings I've heard in over 60 years of attending church. I consider that a failing of the church. Contrary to what people may conclude from that, I still have faith; I just believe there is much more to the story than most churches give, or maybe can give.
I suspect that the answers I seek involve knowledge and concepts that are beyond my and most of humankind's comprehension, and that's the reason it comes down to a simple message requiring faith. I don't, and never will have all of the answers, but I still have that faith, based on a loving God, with "love" defined as we commonly define it. I am still curious and seek answers, and always will, and I won't be satisifed with contradictory or nonsensical words and ideas.
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All-In [29883]
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Re: Thanks - and I don't necessarily disagree with that.
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Apr 30, 2023, 11:42 PM
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>I know there were millions or perhaps billions of people throughout history, maybe in China or native Americans and elsewhere
I think the current estimate is 100 billion, depending on when one considers "man" started. This map has always blown me away. The LA Natural History Museum used to have one the size of a whole wall, in video version. Each dot is a million people. The timeline starts at the year 0 and goes through today to 2100.
As you can see, although in the West we learn about Western Civilization as far back as the Sumerians and Egyptians on the Tigris/Euphrates and Nile, the bulk of humanity has lived along the Indus River in India and the Yellow River in China - by far.
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All-In [29883]
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Re: Thanks - and I don't necessarily disagree with that.
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Apr 30, 2023, 11:55 PM
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Tagged you so the gif above isn't lost in the shuffle
Smiling Tiger®
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CU Medallion [58460]
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Thanks - great graphic that really puts it into perspective.***
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May 1, 2023, 5:44 AM
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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It does. Similar graphics show the scale of the universe etc
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May 1, 2023, 10:05 AM
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I forget the exact numbers, but what I think I remember is that if you start with an atom on your skin, and scale to that size, and travel inward from there (from an electron to the nucleus, out the other side, and continuing on in), there is as much space in that direction as there is from here to the edge of the universe. I'm sure I messed that up, but its something like that.
We only think we know what 'big' is. Or 'fair'.
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CU Medallion [58460]
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Right, and that's basically what I tried to capture with
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May 1, 2023, 11:04 AM
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this explanation above:
I suspect that the answers I seek involve knowledge and concepts that are beyond my and most of humankind's comprehension, and that's the reason it comes down to a simple message requiring faith. I don't, and never will have all of the answers, but I still have that faith, based on a loving God, with "love" defined as we commonly define it. I am still curious and seek answers, and always will, and I won't be satisfied with contradictory or nonsensical words and ideas.
For me, it's important to understand what we can, and for us to be able to talk about it, words like "love", "big", and "fair" have to have commonly understood meanings; if they don't, but instead mean something very different or perhaps contradictory to God, then those words, and the concepts they help form, become meaningless and incomprehensible to us. Talking and thinking about them is futile.
Again, my belief is that our universe and reality was created by God, and the vastness and complexity of it all is far beyond human comprehension, and that God loves us as we are spiritually part of him. I can't prove that to anybody, and as interested as I am in the subject and in challenging my own thinking, I accept the limitations involved and am not interested in convincing others. It's just the best I can do, based on my own limitations, and I have faith, by choice, that God loves us, exactly as I understand "love", just on a higher level than I can comprehend.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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See? I told you. Wonderful. Loved it.
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May 1, 2023, 12:13 PM
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I don't know how this fits with what you just said, but years ago I was all into CS Lewis because I had never known he wrote science fiction. Starting with "Out Of The Silent Planet", he wrote a series of three, a story in three parts. Man, loved them. So I started reading more about him, and of course we all know how he and Tolkien used to go to the pub and hash out stories, argue religion, etc. At one point Tolkien was describing his latest story and Lewis said, "Enough with the elves! Please, no more elves!" Funny.
Anyway, during one religious discussion Tolkien proposed that the sacrificial hero story in most pagan literature is God speaking to mankind, revealing the story behind the veil. It was a directional moment in Lewis's thinking. You are right, I think, that the most fundamental concepts do not lend themselves to finite human definition. Lewis, while an atheist, was still an artist, so didn't perceive as rigid a wall between the physical and ethereal as most people do, or as specific definitions require. He was the ultimate rationalist, so still needed plausible evidence that the NT was accurate, but it was his unique ability to think 'beyond' that made the possibility real to him.
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CU Medallion [58460]
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And at the risk of beating the absolute tar out of this
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May 1, 2023, 3:26 PM
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dead horse, I feel compelled to add that everything I believe and can believe about God flows from that basic assumption and I cannot violate it ... That God created us and the reality in which we exist, and he loves us exactly as we understand the meaning of love.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Cool. This is off topic, but I think that the growth
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May 1, 2023, 10:14 AM
[ in reply to Re: Thanks - and I don't necessarily disagree with that. ] |
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has flattened, or is projected to soon. Growth rate is about to go negative? Something like that. You likely know more about that. Just reminds me that in the 60's the predictions were that we would be out of food before now. Totally apocalyptic scenario. Food is now not the issue in hunger, but politics.
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All-In [29883]
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Re: Cool. This is off topic, but I think that the growth
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May 1, 2023, 1:11 PM
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Growth rate I'd have to look up. No idea. But yeah, I remember "Peak Oil" from the 70's, before shale technology, and "Peak Food" as well, before agricultural advances. We still might end up here though...
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All-In [29883]
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Re: Cool. This is off topic, but I think that the growth
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May 1, 2023, 1:18 PM
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Or remember this 70's overpopulation classic?
"In the future, you can have anything you want. Except your 30th birthday."
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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All-In [29883]
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Re: Thanks - and I don't necessarily disagree with that.
May 1, 2023, 1:15 PM
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Caught my attention too. I guess if the Bering Strait is underwater there's no migration path to the Americas.
Right now our understanding is that man began in the Rift Valley of Africa and migrated >Middle East>India>China. But that graphic makes me wonder if we haven't missed some evolutionary evidence buried in India and China. Who knows what we'll find in the future.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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Re: I would guess it probably was. I mean, surely, you have
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May 1, 2023, 4:03 AM
[ in reply to I would guess it probably was. I mean, surely, you have ] |
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God has a way of finding and saving those who are open to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. To think otherwise is to deny or limit God's ability.
Unfortunately, non believers will comprehend the power of God even less than believers. We see it everyday yet we still at times worry and sweat about things beyond our control. That alone should make us patient with those who don't believe for we know Him and yet at times doubt His lovingkindness.
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Hall of Famer [24484]
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Some ask, "Why doesn't that happen here?" It does.
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May 1, 2023, 11:48 AM
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Every day. I imagine your experience has been that of most people, that whenever we see a person come to faith, that person had already abandoned the idea that he/she was the arbiter of who is/is not a "good person", or that they could become one, or could intellectualize his/her way to contentment with who they were. Something was wrong - and not with everybody else - and they wanted an answer. I think you and I would agree that the Bible says in several places that God always reveals himself to those people, and that everybody else will be judged by the law, which is their choice.
I have never seen anyone 'truthed' to the Gospel. Or 'friended' to it. Both have led a person to consider the Gospel, but it seems that the heart is the deciding factor. Even CS Lewis, who famously argued with Tolkien about it for years, and was as ardent a proponent of the atheist position as ever lived, was influenced as much by the thread of the Gospel in pagan literature as by apologetics. He never stopped looking for what his heart/mind could never find. Tolkien being there was no accident, imo.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Some ask, "Why doesn't that happen here?" It does.
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May 1, 2023, 12:25 PM
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>I have never seen anyone 'truthed' to the Gospel. Or 'friended' to it.
Well, yeah. That's why it's a religion and not a science. If there were a set of facts you could be pointed to then faith wouldn't be required. This isn't unique to Christianity. Islam does the same thing. People aren't converting to it because of some set of "truths", they convert for a multitude of reasons but most likely societal pressures.
> I think you and I would agree that the Bible says in several places that God always reveals himself to those people, and that everybody else will be judged by the law, which is their choice.
I also agree that the Bible says that, but as we established earlier, this requires that you believe the Bible is true basically because it says it is even though we only have altered versions to work with.
You keep saying that God always reveals himself, but where/when/how does that happen? I've never seen him. Why is it supposed to be so mysterious and hand-wavy if it's so important?
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Some ask, "Why doesn't that happen here?" It does.
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May 1, 2023, 8:30 PM
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“That's why it's a religion and not a science. If there were a set of facts you could be pointed to then faith wouldn't be required.”
I wouldn’t necessarily agree that the Bible teaches that. Supposedly everybody mentioned in the Bible saw god act with their own eyes.
Moses saw a burning bush, the Israelites had the Red Sea parted for them, the disciples saw miracles, the apostles performed miracles after Jesus, the list goes on and on….
Ironically the god of the Bible never asked anyone to believe without giving them evidence they could see.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Some ask, "Why doesn't that happen here?" It does.
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May 1, 2023, 8:55 PM
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Yeah, I asked that question a lot as a young believer. I still believed, but I always wondered why it wouldn't be laid out clearly. Not just to me, but to others, I wanted to be saved.
I realize now, of course, that if you look for something over and over and still don't find it. It's _probably_ just not there.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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You were their evidence.
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May 3, 2023, 5:36 PM
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Your faith in God was persuading. Hebrews 11:
"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."
Substance is something you can touch or rather something that you perceive when you touch it or it touches you.
Evidence is that which sends a man to prison or exonerates him from a crime during a trial.
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CU Medallion [58460]
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What's amazing to me is that in 20+ years of growing up
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Apr 30, 2023, 4:59 PM
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in a decent-sized Southern Baptist church, not a single person ever asked that very glaring, important question, or as has also been mentioned in this thread, what about the millions or billions of people who were born and died before Jesus, or otherwise never heard of him.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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Much work was done by God during the intertestamentlal...
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Apr 30, 2023, 5:43 PM
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period. Greek became a common language around the region and Rome took possession of so much of the property around the Mediterranean. During those 400+ years Hebrews were spread all though what we know as the Roman Empire and travel was much easier on the roads Rome built. The Empire was the center of the civilized world. Travel and commerce was high.
There were dozens of Synagogues spread across the Empire and beyond. God commissioned 12 men to spread the Gospel. 11 of them were sent exclusively to the Jews and Paul was specifically sent to preach to the gentiles though he preached to the Jews too.
The Children of Israel had never proselytized before the Silent Years but after being spread around in a fashion which inhibited worship at the Temple in Jerusalem they drew many gentiles who wanted to worship the God of Israel and some even got snipped.
The area was ripe and ready for harvest when Jesus began to preach the coming of the Kingdom of God. That didn't end with His ascension to Heaven. Some said it was like wildfire, one accused Paul and the other apostles of turning the world upside down.
Jesus and the 12 Apostles preached from the Old Testament adding only that which Jesus taught and His Gospel. You don't need a New Testament to lead someone to God if you say at the feet of Christ for those 3 years of His preaching and teaching.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Much work was done by God during the intertestamentlal...
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Apr 30, 2023, 6:13 PM
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Ok, so did everyone who didn't get to hear about Jesus go to hell?
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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The lost have this thing going on in their minds.
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May 1, 2023, 3:55 AM
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They condemn God for being an all knowing God. Read Psalm 139 carefully and you will see that God knew your name, every thought you would ever have and every word you would ever speak before the foundation of this world.
That is true and shows that God knew who would and who wouldn't be saved before the foundation of the world. Why then, would He not put those who will believe in a place to hear the Gospel? That is harsh and it offends many Christians.
If any Christians read this post or those who claim the name of Christ Jesus are offended that's because of the pride within them. According to the Scripture, we didn't choose Him, He chose us. We never paid for our sin against Him, He paid for them on the cross.
Those two thoughts whip down any pride which would make us (Christians) think we are special other than the fact that before we were formed in the womb God handpicked us to declare His righteousness to others. We are His servants, not His master nor His equal.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: The lost have this thing going on in their minds.
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May 1, 2023, 1:11 PM
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> That is true and shows that God knew who would and who wouldn't be saved before the foundation of the world. Why then, would He not put those who will believe in a place to hear the Gospel? That is harsh and it offends many Christians.
It is harsh and should offend you. It's a gross theology, for sure. You are saying God created people knowing full well they would go to hell, all the while saying that it is just and good.
I find it so interesting that when something good happens to a Christian, we can use our human logic to say "this is just and good!". We can do the same when someone does something bad like murder or rape "this is wrong and unjust!". But if God commits an atrocity (millions of kids die every year, millions go to hell for praying to the wrong god through no fault of their own) suddenly that is "mysterious" and "we humans can't possibly understand".
The simple answer here is that it's you that has the weird worldview, not everyone else. You can believe whatever you want but dang... that's a dreadfully unjust thing you believe.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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I find it amazing that all the Christians you know have...
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May 1, 2023, 2:47 PM
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never shared Romans 8 with you. Just so you know...
"26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
People use to say all things work out for the best. That's not true for the lost but only for those predestined to live in eternity by God.
The rest are dead already so things don't work for their betterment. They may think wealth, health...are working in their favor but they will spend eternity in death.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: I find it amazing that all the Christians you know have...
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May 1, 2023, 3:39 PM
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> I find it amazing that all the Christians you know have never shared Romans 8 with you. Just so you know...
I find it amazing that you don't realize that it's entirely possible the Bible is not an authortative text. I could quote the Quran to you, how far would that get me? It's the exact same concept.
We've already established in other threads that even Christians realize the bible contains errors.
Also, you're a Calvinist? You don't run into many of those.
I think it's funny that I've never met a Calvinist who was among the chosen. Isn't that convenient?
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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Woah there, Nelly.
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May 3, 2023, 4:33 AM
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God spoke and the universe came to exist. Consider the power of a single 5 lb bag of flour. I've read that the energy within the atoms in that bag was released that it would destroy the earth. Now consider all the atoms in the universe and the power that God expended to form them and the magnificent and divine design of them; now consider again that God only spoke to create all that. Yet after the creation of all that is His power was not diminished one calorie.
You think He had any problem producing, protecting and providing His Holy Word to us? I do not.
That is the simple explanation that Jesus gave the Pharisees and one which David spoke of when he wrote Psalms 19:
"1 (To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.) The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world..."
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Woah there, Nelly.
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May 3, 2023, 12:59 PM
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I'm curious why you won't answer this part
> I find it amazing that you don't realize that it's entirely possible the Bible is not an authortative text. I could quote the Quran to you, how far would that get me? It's the exact same concept.
You keep quoting the Bible, which is fine, you beleive that. But I've yet to get an answer as to why we should believe it as an authoritative text when other texts (Quran) make similar claims.
If I'm talking to you and a muslim, both are just as fervent about their holy books, so telling me "see this is what my book says" doesn't have much sway.
What's wrong with my logic there?
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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Do you trust your father?
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May 3, 2023, 5:15 PM
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I trust that mine has blessed me to know the truth. I've tried the Word of God for 50 years and found it true.
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CU Medallion [60068]
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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The Gospel was, is and will be preached to everyone...
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May 1, 2023, 4:05 AM
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who will believe and a multitude of people who will not.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: The Gospel was, is and will be preached to everyone...
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May 1, 2023, 10:24 AM
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But it's literally not, there are a lot of people who lived and died without being aware of the gospels.
> who will believe and a multitude of people who will not.
That sounds like a bug in the system then if the message is so unconvincing...
I mean, you are really telling me that there is this amazing message out there, that's so incredible that his own creation rejects it? That makes no sense at all.
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All-In [26968]
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Jesus is the only way to heaven.
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May 3, 2023, 8:23 AM
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According to the Bible, anyone who is not saved through faith in Jesus Christ will go to hell, no matter what their circumstances.
Many people go to hell having never heard of the existence of any Jesus. That is profoundly sad, and should be motivator for us to try to reach those people with the Gospel.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Jesus is the only way to heaven.
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May 3, 2023, 9:22 AM
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Shocks me that someone can actually say they believe that.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: Jesus is the only way to heaven.
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May 3, 2023, 10:11 AM
[ in reply to Jesus is the only way to heaven. ] |
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Who would want to serve a god like that?
If he does exist im gonna tell him what a piece of #### he is, drop my drawers so he can see my crusty white ### as I do a belly flip into the lake of fire.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Jesus is the only way to heaven.
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May 3, 2023, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Jesus is the only way to heaven. ] |
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> Many people go to hell having never heard of the existence of any Jesus. That is profoundly sad, and should be motivator for us to try to reach those people with the Gospel.
I'm all for you believing what you want, but I have a really hard time how you would call that love. Like at all.
People going to eternal torment for doing what? Not hearing a message?
Also, this appears to contradict what others have posted here about the word being preached to everyone?
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All-In [26968]
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God has already expressed the most extreme love possible
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May 3, 2023, 3:58 PM
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John 3:16
The rest is up to us. If there is a single person in the world who hasn't heard the Gospel, that's our fault, not God's.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: God has already expressed the most extreme love possible
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May 3, 2023, 4:51 PM
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> God has already expressed the most extreme love possible
You are leaving out the eternal torment, the millions of people suffering and dying (which he either can't or won't intervene) on.
How is that love?
> The rest is up to us. If there is a single person in the world who hasn't heard the Gospel, that's our fault, not God's.
How specifically is it our fault? That never gets explained. It's like creating people with a major handicap and then punishing them for it.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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If you read John 3:16 you would not have accused God...
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May 3, 2023, 5:27 PM
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of ignoring those who are going to hell.
We are all suffering and dying. Your issue is that some are suffering more than you and some are dying before you die. You've championed their cause when you have one which is surely just as critical.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: If you read John 3:16 you would not have accused God...
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May 4, 2023, 1:30 PM
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> Your issue is that some are suffering more than you and some are dying before you die. You've championed their cause when you have one which is surely just as critical
My "issue" is that you are trying to say that enteral punishment is "good" or "just". It's just not. If anyone else set their kids on fire, even temporarily, they would be called a monster. If you do it for eternity for not believing something, that is loving and just..?
> If you read John 3:16 you would not have accused God of ignoring those who are going to hell.
I'm not accusing God, I don't think what you're quoting is divine. It contains too many errors, contradictions and changes to be anything but the work of man.
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Oculus Spirit [93712]
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You're judging...
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May 4, 2023, 2:24 PM
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God unjust for condemning sin? Sometimes, I too, don't like the way He runs this universe. However, He created it and He will run it like He wants.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: You're judging...
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May 4, 2023, 2:51 PM
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No, I’m not condemning God. I don’t think he exists. I’m pointing out moral flaws in man’s religion.
However, if it is actually is true. It’s still not loving or just. I agree that if there id a creator that they can, by definition, do what they want. It doesn’t mean they have to be nice.
Believe it if you want but calling it love defies all logic. That would mean he punishes people for doing things that he gave them the ability to do. That would mean he created us (and thus sin) and knew we would sin and the punish us anyway.
Would you treat your own kids like this? I’d bet not.
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All-In [26968]
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Because for people to know about something,
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May 4, 2023, 11:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: God has already expressed the most extreme love possible ] |
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they have to be told. People are who tell people things. So if people haven't heard things, then people are at fault for not telling them.
Romans 10:14
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: Because for people to know about something,
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May 4, 2023, 2:01 PM
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Wait wait wait.. So the creator of the universe creates fallible people, tells them to spread the word, and then punishes those who don't hear it because of other people's failure?
That doesn't sound correct.
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All-In [26968]
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God already did that thing where he created
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May 4, 2023, 11:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: God has already expressed the most extreme love possible ] |
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a perfect world with no suffering or death. Man chose to reject that world. That is not God's fault.
Can you imagine giving someone perfection, and the person receiving it said "No, thanks."? Then, after being so rejected, God loved so immeasurably, that He made a way for man to change his mind, and choose eternal life. God didn't have to do that. He could have let man choose hell irreversibly.
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Orange Blooded [2053]
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Re: God already did that thing where he created
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May 4, 2023, 2:45 PM
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He made something so perfect that his own creation introduced evil? That doesn’t track.
Also, didn’t Lucifer rebel from heaven?
Sounds like he is 0 for 2 on creating paradise. Maybe the 3rd time will be a charm?
> God didn't have to do that. He could have let man choose hell irreversibly.
Um.. he created hell. If he’s God, he didn’t have to create hell in the first place. You guys say he’s all powerful but his hands are so tied that he had to create a place of eternal torment. That doesn’t make any sense.
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All-In [29883]
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Re: God already did that thing where he created
May 4, 2023, 2:46 PM
[ in reply to God already did that thing where he created ] |
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>with no suffering or death
Maybe, but there's this...
Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Which implies man was going to die all along, regardless of whether he ate from the Tree of G&E.
But the overall story does paint a curious picture.
It seems that God only wants man to use his free will in one particular way, which seems to make it not a choice at all. Mrs. Fordt does this with her kinders every day. Their choice is not "have an apple or a banana." This or that.
Their choice is "behave, or loose recess." Carrot or stick. It's a slanted playing field to be sure. An effort to influence your choice by threat. Kinders get the lightweight version of "Believe in God or burn in hell." Or, even more severely, do it my way, or suffer.
Which makes me think God simply wants to be loved. He wants people to worship him. He has an emotional need. Ambivalence is not an option. The choice he offers is not "Eh, just do what you want." His choice is more of an ultimatum. It's something we don't often look at - the characteristics of God himself. We know he's jealous, we know he gets angry, and it seems through the system he set up that he wants to be loved. Very human. I'd say man was definitely created in his image, if nothing else.
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