|
Replies: 99
| visibility 1
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
7
7
Jan 10, 2023, 10:25 PM
|
|
Let's look at the past eight years.....
Six losses in the past two years compared to six in the five years before. I think this answers that question but let's dive deeper and look at who we lost to.
In the past two years, we lost to teams in the final poll ranked: #5, #19, and #25 (2022); #1, #13, and #20 (2021).
From 2020 to 2015, our six losses were from teams whose final rankings were: #2, #5 (2020); #1 (2019). NR, #1 (2017); NR (2016).
When Clemson dropped those battles to NR teams they lost to between 2020 and 2015, they went on to the championship and won in 2016. Then they went back to the national championship game in 2017 and lost.
Thoughts?
Is Clemson in decline?
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Guru [1756]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1032
Joined: 7/7/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
2
Jan 10, 2023, 10:29 PM
|
|
Yes
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as
3
Jan 10, 2023, 10:31 PM
|
|
legitimate posters to respond to this after their Wednesday morning meeting. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
So you see yourself as a, "legitimate poster" because
1
Jan 10, 2023, 10:53 PM
|
|
Why is that? Because you agree with yourself?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Because I don't have ties to any coaches
3
Jan 10, 2023, 10:58 PM
|
|
or media folk at Clemson.
Now, I never accused you of that. They usually put a decent thought together first.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Wait, so you're "legitimate" because you don't
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:27 PM
|
|
have ties to any coaches or media? Wuuuut?
Your little childish attempt at a jab was weak. Feel free to debate anything I've posted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2351]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 2725
Joined: 9/12/04
|
Re: I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as
Jan 10, 2023, 11:17 PM
[ in reply to I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as ] |
|
They’ll arrive in force to hand out coloring books to distract you from looking out the window and noticing the bus is rolling downhill.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Very funny
Jan 10, 2023, 11:21 PM
|
|
Nothing like an attempt at a third grade put down to make you seem like some intelligent poster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2055]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 1779
Joined: 10/13/15
|
Re: I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:34 AM
[ in reply to I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as ] |
|
This is debatable? LOL. An improving ACC coupled with our "stuck in the past" strategy puts us on a path to a 9-10 wins and mediocre bowls for the remainder of Clay Swinney's eligibility. And then Dabo retires.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
So what was your pre-season projections for our Win/Loss
1
Jan 11, 2023, 10:49 AM
[ in reply to I completely expect the Clemson media folk disguised as ] |
|
heading into 2022? Around 6-6, right? Missing out on the Atlantic to NC State or Wake? It's okay to share that. And not what you hoped, but what you expected and shared on here. Am I off base here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [38124]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9360
Joined: 6/13/19
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
3
Jan 10, 2023, 10:32 PM
|
|
I'd say no at this point. Too much talent to think that. Just had another top 10 recruiting class.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
|
And we also just had another year where we finished outside the top 10.***
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:03 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
That's another easy metric
9
9
Jan 10, 2023, 11:27 PM
|
|
Final rankings for Clemson:
2016 - 1
2017 - 4
2018 - 1
2019 - 2
2020 - 3
2021 - 14
2022 - 13
Why is this even a debate on TNET?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
You're clearly not reading replies.
1
2
Jan 10, 2023, 11:39 PM
|
|
You're only skimming the surface, trying to prop up your decline theory. Well, yeah, duh the final ranking went down to 14 before RISING this year. But you asked if that simplistic attempt at data analysis represented a program in overall decline. Your answer is no. We're not a program in decline. We were a good QB away from potentially or likely making the playoffs the last two seasons.
UGA '21 - our defense was stellar, but the only TD of the game was on an INT. You know the rest of that story.
NC State '21 - OT in spite of you know who. Good QB changes this game.
PITT '21 - I don't think I've ever seen an INT by stealing a shuffle pass, and then giving up a TD on top of it. Have you ever seen that? Enough said.
Undefeated regular season and playoffs, playing Pitt again in the conf championship. All with a good QB.
ND '22 - not sure if a good QB changes everything in this one. Loss.
uSC '22 - 27.6%. A one point loss that's a blowout win with even 50%. Hunter Johnson would have been a better option in this one.
With the ACC Championship, that's 11 wins and playoff bound. Almost assuredly a top 4 finish.
All with a good/great QB.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
It’s a pretty factual argument and
4
Jan 11, 2023, 9:29 AM
|
|
Anyone who cant see it is delusional.
We are in decline. Blame it on whatever you want. The drop off in coaching has sealed our fate.. maybe we’ll do something different next year
The product we are putting on the field is SLOPPY at best.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
3
Jan 11, 2023, 12:28 AM
[ in reply to That's another easy metric ] |
|
Final rankings for Clemson:
2016 - 1
2017 - 4
2018 - 1
2019 - 2
2020 - 3
2021 - 14
2022 - 13
My maths ain't what they used to be so help me out here. By 'decline' do you mean this year's 13 is less than last year's 14? The number is lower but like golf that's supposedly a good thing here, right? It's certainly not all that hotness from the top, but didn't this season give us a tiny nudge up over the last one?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 3740
Joined: 9/5/20
|
Good Lord, you people are in denial
3
Jan 11, 2023, 9:23 AM
|
|
You are literally trying to convince people that to finish is barely inside. The top 15 is not a decline because 13 isn’t as bad as 14.
This isn’t about a pattern. It’s about objectivity. Five years in the top five then two years outside of the top 12. If you don’t see that as a decline, you’re not only in denial but you might need some mental counseling.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: Good Lord, you people are in denial
1
Jan 11, 2023, 10:42 AM
|
|
We hit a bump in the road the past two seasons, significantly tied to our passing game. We clearly haven't been at the performance level of those seasons prior that the OP listed. However, the OP led with a simplistic metric with a claim of 'declining', which suggests ongoing and worsening, which is what he is pushing - ready to get worse even. So I very clearly pointed out, using his own metric, that his statement is actually false. Because it is. An ACC championship and Orange Bowl appearance is clearly a better result this year than last. Are the past two seasons a decline from the prior 5? Of course they are. But this season is not a decline from last season, based on the stats the OP provided to make his case.
Not panicking and woe is me-ing is not being in denial. Neither is calling out logical fallacies.
Go Tigers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [12214]
TigerPulse: 72%
Posts: 20784
Joined: 2/13/05
|
Re: That's another easy metric
Jan 11, 2023, 8:58 AM
[ in reply to That's another easy metric ] |
|
Umm yes, you can see the drop off clearly
|
|
|
|
|
|
Freshman [-99]
TigerPulse: 68%
Posts: 3740
Joined: 9/5/20
|
Completely illogical response
2
Jan 11, 2023, 9:19 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline? ] |
|
History has proven coaching is more important than talent in any given season. You can’t win on talent alone, which is why we have struggled the last two years against mediocre teams. All the talent in the world won’t win without competent coaching. Right now our coaching is totally incompetent! Dabo is the only constant between our current coaching staff and our championship run.
Also, our recruiting has dropped off in certain crucial areas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13530]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8944
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 10, 2023, 10:32 PM
|
|
I tried to make an argument earlier that rather than being in decline it feels more like we are standing still and somewhat holding on to the past way of doing things while some of the other teams are leveraging some of the new opportunities and beginning to take some steps forward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [560]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 6254
Joined: 8/30/14
|
may feel that way but it's never static****
Jan 11, 2023, 2:42 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
You’re either getting better or you’re getting worse
Jan 11, 2023, 9:31 AM
|
|
-Dabo, probably
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [30460]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47453
Joined: 12/20/99
|
To say otherwise would be to lie…
4
Jan 10, 2023, 10:34 PM
|
|
Now can it be corrected? Of course. Will it? Remains to be seen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
That's what upsets me most about the pumper wave that
5
5
Jan 10, 2023, 10:42 PM
|
|
We will be sure to see tomorrow after they've had time to discuss the strategy to defend these numbers (I am only half-joking here).
We are in decline, no question. The only questions are why and what do we do about it?
To deny it's happening is what we are fighting against with these orange-glasses folk who get mad and call us ungrateful for 2016, 2018 Natties, and the ACC championship this year without ever acknowledging what is going on currently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [8538]
TigerPulse: 48%
Posts: 11514
Joined: 9/9/06
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
2
1
Jan 10, 2023, 10:42 PM
|
|
Five teams in the country won more games than we did this year including minor school, Troy. That is not a decline
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Whataboutism?
2
Jan 10, 2023, 10:49 PM
|
|
Nice try but what does your post have to do with mine?
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
You don't seem to have a good feel for relevancy
1
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:05 PM
|
|
What he said shows a larger picture variable of your "declining" theory. His data is at least as important as yours, if not more so. Either way, it obviously factors into your decline theory post.
Again, hard to say a program as a whole is in decline when in reality it was so handcuffed at the most important position on the field. Like I said, we were a good QB away from potentially going undefeated in the regular season last year, and that includes Georgia. This year we were a good QB away from beating uSC and making the playoffs with a top 4 finish. Can't say "we're in decline (as a program) without actually looking under the surface.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
If comparing results across 8 years isn't relevant then
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:14 PM
|
|
I guess you're right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Doubling down on your simplistic approach doesn't reduce its simplicity.***
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:40 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Huh?***
Jan 10, 2023, 11:46 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Whooosh...
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:50 PM
|
|
I gave you at least two pertinent paragraphs below the one sentence you tried to respond to. If you really want to debate your simplistic theory, you're going to have to actually read my post in its entirety and reply accordingly.
Hopefully that helps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [593]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 729
Joined: 4/10/18
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6858]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 6500
Joined: 10/7/07
|
You want to look under the surface you say?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 10:15 AM
[ in reply to You don't seem to have a good feel for relevancy ] |
|
Hows 49th in offense and 28th in defense work for you? Blown out by ND and UT. Lost to a VERY mediocre USuC team. Pushed around on the lines of scrimmage. Struggled with bad teams virtually all year. There are two options here if you cant see the obvious. 1. You're blind. 2. You're a dolt. Im leading to point #2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
My deep thoughts on this.
Jan 10, 2023, 10:44 PM
|
|
The QB position is the most important position on the field.
You're focusing in on 27 games over 2 years. For 24 of those 27 games, this most important position played good and bad, but below average overall. When we made a change at this position, we saw immediate improvement.
With better overall QB play, we may have been undefeated in the regular season last year, and yes, that includes Georgia. With better overall QB play, we likely make the playoffs and finish in the top 4 this year.
You gotta look below the surface to really answer your question. It's not as simple as you presented.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13530]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8944
Joined: 8/30/18
|
Re: My deep thoughts on this.
5
5
Jan 10, 2023, 10:47 PM
|
|
You also have to look below the surface and realize that fixing the QB doesn't fix everything...
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Not saying we're perfect otherwise, but
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:25 PM
|
|
when you look at the losses I the last 2 years..
UGA '21 - our defense was stellar, but the only TD of the game was on an INT. You know the rest of that story.
NC State '21 - OT in spite of you know who. Good QB changes this game.
PITT '21 - I don't think I've ever seen an INT by stealing a shuffle pass, and then giving up a TD on top of it. Have you ever seen that? Enough said.
Undefeated regular season and playoffs, playing Pitt again in the conf championship. All with a good QB.
ND '22 - not sure if a good QB changes everything in this one. Loss.
uSC '22 - 27.6%. A one point loss that's a blowout win with even 50%. Hunter Johnson would have been a better option in this one.
With the ACC Championship, that's 11 wins and playoff bound. Almost assuredly a top 4 finish.
All with a good/great QB.
Are we, as a program, really in decline, or are we, as I just exhibited, a good/great QB away from two playoff seasons? Sounds crazy I know, buy when you deep dive into the losses, the biggest issue is clear.
Do we have areas needing improvement? No doubt. Were we also a good QB away from potentially/likely reaching the playoffs the last two years? Well, just look it game by game.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
We ranked #29 in total defense too
4
Jan 10, 2023, 11:33 PM
|
|
Besides, if one player can sink your whole team, you haven't recruited or developed enough talent, including the QBs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Again, I gotta ask...
1
Jan 10, 2023, 11:44 PM
|
|
Wuuuut?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
LOL....
3
Jan 11, 2023, 7:26 AM
[ in reply to Not saying we're perfect otherwise, but ] |
|
if you go game by game you'll realize we were missing WAY more than just a "good/elite" QB
-our WRs are horrendous
-our WRs can't create separation.....lack short area quickness
-our WRs don't have long speed
-our WRs lack development and blocking ability
-our offensive scheme/playcalling was atrocious for most of the year
-our child prodigy DCoordinator did less with more talent than I can remember in years past
-our Oline isn't even 2015-2018 clemson Oline worthy.....and they weren't great then
-our offensive talent has taken a MASSIVE HIT
-our Coach refuses to adapt to the new world of CFB.....namely meaningful portal use as a TOOL to upgrade the talent in deficient areas.
...........but sure go on thinking "WE JUST NEED A QB"...........we'll be having the same conversations we did next year as we did this year when all I heard was "our WRs were too hurt" and/or "our QB isn't good".
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Lol. What a bunch of bunk
2
Jan 11, 2023, 8:35 AM
|
|
Feel free to do like I did for the games.
You posted all those words yet still didn't explain how having a good QB does not do exactly what I said. You simply pulled the fake dumper company lines, without even touching on exactly what I said. It's funny, really.
You obviously have no clue what you're talking about, and you're trying too hard to make it appear like you do. Makes it obvious you're disingenuous and exposing your ignorance.
Your comedy relief is nothing but a charade. But you already know that.
UGA '21 - our defense was stellar, but the only TD of the game was on an INT. You know the rest of that story.
NC State '21 - OT in spite of you know who. Good QB changes this game.
PITT '21 - I don't think I've ever seen an INT by stealing a shuffle pass, and then giving up a TD on top of it. Have you ever seen that? Enough said.
Undefeated regular season and playoffs, playing Pitt again in the conf championship. All with a good QB.
ND '22 - not sure if a good QB changes everything in this one. Loss.
uSC '22 - 27.6%. A one point loss that's a blowout win with even 50%. Hunter Johnson would have been a better option in this one.
With the ACC Championship, that's 11 wins and playoff bound. Almost assuredly a top 4 finish.
We're not in a program decline. We're a good QB away from making the playoffs.
You reckon Rattled will carry your cawks to the playoffs? ???
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Horrible argument
1
7
7
Jan 10, 2023, 10:54 PM
[ in reply to My deep thoughts on this. ] |
|
First off, I am focusing on games for eight years and measuring the trends.
The other major pumper denial is to blame it all on one person for whom the coaches recruited and were responsible for developing.
UGA took a kid who struggled for years and developed him into a two-time winning NC winner; not even Trevor did that.
Now you're going to say that Bennett had a better surrounding cast? There, I saved you the trouble. But unfortunately, this only weakens your argument. See, I saved you the trouble again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1487]
TigerPulse: 76%
Posts: 1995
Joined: 1/2/23
|
Whoosh.
1
3
Jan 11, 2023, 12:05 AM
|
|
You're lost. I mean no offense buddy, but you're so far off track it's not even really worth trying to get you to understand. It just doesn't appear your brain grasps things correctly in your world. I'm not saying that's your fault. It's the whole left / right brained thing.
Have a good one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: My deep thoughts on this.
2
Jan 11, 2023, 9:28 AM
[ in reply to My deep thoughts on this. ] |
|
Nattyy,
I am not disagreeing with you about QB play, but you just accused Pacific of being simplistic
while your entire theory is - the QB did it - hardly sophisticated analysis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1421]
TigerPulse: 98%
Posts: 1623
Joined: 11/21/00
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
1
Jan 10, 2023, 10:48 PM
|
|
It’s obvious
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
|
Does Dabo shave off his sideburns?***
2
Jan 10, 2023, 11:05 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [2523]
TigerPulse: 85%
Posts: 1171
Joined: 9/10/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
8
8
Jan 10, 2023, 11:57 PM
|
|
-Blown out by ND with two weeks to prepare
-Loss to SCAR at home
-Blown out by Tennessee's B team
Anyone who doesn't think we're in decline is delusional. And anyone that expects a little more out of one of the highest paid coaches in the country is a "Coot", apparently.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [140588]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33880
Joined: 12/5/10
|
I see your B team comment…
2
Jan 11, 2013, 1:17 PM
|
|
but we also had starters out. Most importantly, we started a backup QB who was a true freshman with 0 prior starts. That was not UT’s situation. It’s not like our ones played their twos here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
But the coots hung 60 on their “A”
1
Jan 11, 2023, 9:36 AM
|
|
Squad ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6858]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 6500
Joined: 10/7/07
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-American [564]
TigerPulse: 45%
Posts: 701
Joined: 12/18/22
|
Re: I see your B team comment…
1
Jan 11, 2023, 11:27 AM
[ in reply to I see your B team comment… ] |
|
But wait...I thought you guys were going to the playoffs if you had just played Cade earlier. Now, "he's just a freshman with 0 starts" that can't score on the 127th ranked pass D.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1589]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 556
Joined: 11/26/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 12:43 AM
|
|
No!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
OK. how are we not?***
Jan 11, 2023, 8:25 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16027]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7665
Joined: 12/4/06
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 1:50 AM
|
|
Sure we missed some recruits and lost 5 games or 6 games in 2 years. I believe before NIL, the TP and conference expansions, coaching changes at Clemson as well as other schools making changes, IMO Clemson is doing a reset. I believe Dabo can get us back to Elite. But he will need fan support. If I were the HC at Clemson fan support would mean a lot to me and the support I received would encourage me to work harder. It doesn’t matter what amount of money Dabo make’s he is human. After giving us the Clemson the best years in the history of Clemson Football, how can some of you turn on that HC so quickly. I honestly believe that Dabo is giving Clemson 110%. He knows improvements are needed and IMO he is doing what he thinks is best. I am also certain that Dabo and the AD have discussed where the football program just as the AD does with all HC’s.
We played for 4 NC’s on 10 years and won 2 of them. One of those wins we beat Alabama pretty handedly. We were the first team to finish the season as NC’s at 15-0. We gave Urban Meyer his only shutout in his college HC career.
Some have questioned Dabo’s salary. I am trying to look at it from a big time recruits perspective. I think recruits look at programs that have the best paid coaches. This sends a message that the school is vested in having a very successful football program. Those programs that hedge on salaries or facilities would maybe suggest to recruits that the powers that call the shots are not totally “All In” with their coaches or their football program.
Dabo’s Accomplishments:
Accomplishments and honors
Championships:
2 National (2016, 2018)
8 ACC (2011, 2015–2020, 2022)
10 ACC Atlantic Division (2009, 2011, 2012, 2015–2020, 2022)
Awards
3× Paul "Bear" Bryant Award (2015, 2016, 2018)
AFCA Coach of the Year (2015)
AP College Football Coach of the Year (2015)
Sporting News Coach of the Year (2015)
Walter Camp Coach of the Year (2015)
Home Depot Coach of the Year (2015)
George Munger Award (2015)
Bobby Dodd Coach of the Year (2011)
2× ACC Coach of the Year (2015, 2018)
Dabo has given Clemson more success than any other HC in our history and so many fans have quickly turned on him and posted criticisms I believe are unwarranted. How many of you are with Dabo and his staff during meetings, player evaluations, recruiting, and know the daily fictions of football operations???
I remember the years of complaining after Danny Ford left for whatever reason. But I know it was we need Danny back and many of fans other HC selection’s may possibly have gotten us on back on probation and I do not think Clemson would have won any NC’s. You accused Ken Hatfield of being the worst HC so he was basically run out of town. Then Clemson hires a Danny Ford assistant Tommy West. We all know how that turned out. Then Tommy Bowden was hired. IMO that is when positive changes began with the football program. It started with changing the culture surrounding the football program and redefining new priorities. Unfortunately Tommy Bowden could not get us to the next level but he left Clemson with a solid foundation and hired the next HC , Dabo Sweeney who eventually took Clemson to Elite Status, set many records listed above and won 2 more NC’s. There are times that we fans seem to forget the years before Danny Ford and the years before Dabo became the HC. And now it seems we have forgotten all that as HC Dabo has accomplished. Now we are experiencing some adversity again it seems once again fans have forgotten the last 12 years. Over the last 2 years fans rode another Clemson man out of town initially a kid who grew into a good man of character and integrity. DJ Uiagalelei who did nothing but give us his best efforts. Taking blame for his mistakes. Working to improve. But for many fans that was not enough. So he was constantly criticized by fans and the media. The reason I mention it again is that I see history repeating itself and fans hide behind screen names while Dabo is constantly being criticized. It’s fan to question Dabo and his job as Clemson’s HC but there is a line some have crossed.
Call me a pumper, someone who can only see thru tunnel vision glasses or whatever suits those I do not agree with me. And it’s OK to disagree with each other but we don’t have to get so emotional that we cross that line. We should be able to post our thoughts and opinions, question coaches and maybe the team overall. But I am not a fan of singling out kids. Especially to the point that some posted about DJ.
Damar Hamlin’s injury last Sunday should help us to realize it’s just a game. Coaches and players are human. They make mistakes too. At the end of the day we are all still a part of the Clemson family. We all love a winner so when we experience adversity we should appreciate those wins even more, but we should act like adults and be mature enough to handle a loses.
I am still “All In” with Dabo, his staff and the players. I love the wins and dislike the loses. Especially to the coots. But at the end of the day it’s just a game. I try to put a positive prospective on life. I believe Dabo and his staff will adjust to the changes in college football. When contemplating my post try to remember Dabo he has been there before. He is not asking us to give him backslaps, high fives or to agree with everything he does. I believe he has earned the right to ask for our support and to be “All In” for Clemson University and at least appreciate the efforts by the coaches and players. Again they are are not perfect but I believe every coach and every player are “ All In” or they would be at Clemson.
So to the question of Is Clemson in decline??? I say no but the changes in college football has forced every program to re-evaluate their priorities and goals. As some have other HC’s have noted it’s like the Wild West in college athletics that will take time to figure out.
As fans we have to decide weather to support and trust Dabo or will another Good Clemson Tiger be run out of town.??? I believe that continued criticism that crosses that fine line we walk in life could be crossed to the point Clemson’s most successful HC could choose to step away.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Thank you for the long heartfelt post....I agree with
1
Jan 11, 2023, 8:34 AM
|
|
mostly everything you said.
First, I'd like to say that we were flying close to the sun at one point, and it's certainly hard to maintain that, especially in the new college football landscape. I don't think anyone is arguing that.
Could both be true, and we are in decline as we will as a reset? After all, declines can certainly be reversed, but there is no denying that we are in decline currently in my opinion.
It brings us back to the main disagreement on TNET, which is about the latest Dabo hirings. I wasn't thrilled about the choices for DC and OC, but that's his call. And like I said many times on TNET, I am not for firing any coordinator after one year. They need more time and I hope to be wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
Hard to stay close to the sun with crappy coaching
Jan 11, 2023, 9:38 AM
|
|
And schemes
Goodwin said oh yea we gonna simplify Venables scheme and it will be better. We can play faster !! What a crock of ####. He didn’t even have them prepared to play in the same
Scheme but simplified !!
These are 19 year old kids. They need a lot of coaching and development. The NFL isn’t looking to develop talented projects. This is the developmental league !
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 5:05 AM
|
|
No. Why would you want to define the measure of whether any program is in “decline” as the most recent 4 seasons versus the previous 4 seasons? That’s seems like an awfully specific and very limited sample size? I wonder why you would possibly have chosen this? You could have chosen to compare the last 5 seasons to the previous 5. But that’s 9 to 9 losses and wouldn’t serve your narrative.
Now, How about the last decade? I would propose that a decade is a much more meaningful data set. 18 losses in the last decade. The previous had 46 losses. That’s a 60% decrease in losses decade over decade.
Since you’re so concerned about the health of our program and want to lead us to make the best choices concerning Clemson football - can you find me a single ten year period in the 100+ year history of the program where we have lost less games in any 10 year period? That should be easy for a program so obviously in “decline”.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
The Larry Williams article is what got me thinking about ...
1
Jan 11, 2023, 8:43 AM
|
|
that time frame. The was chosen because it compared the peak of Clemson football to where we are going now.
At one point, we were talking dynasty, and now we are getting blown away by any team with a pulse. That didn't happen until recently. It's a like bell curve. Sure he took over a program that was mediocre and built it into a monster now it appears to be sliding back down.
There are other ###### in the armor with recruiting, but I knew these arguments would be coming. None of them have been convincing.
chinkss is a banded word? hahah
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: The Larry Williams article is what got me thinking about ...
Jan 11, 2023, 11:00 AM
|
|
I don’t think it’s convincing because you don’t want to be convinced. You enjoy this role of supreme dumper who makes the occasional call for us to be collegial. Could two 3 loss seasons presage a significant “decline” in the program? Sure. But 6-7 in 2010 could easily have as well. I’d be willing to bet (and if search on this site was more robust, I’d prove) you were dumping pretty hard on Dabo at that point in time. While I can conceive that things might get worse but choose to trust Dabo (not just that he can turn it back around but that he is also our best option) you can’t possibly imagine a future that isn’t exactly as you are predicting. Our demise is already here and absolutely irreversible under Dabo to you and your ilk. So you relentlessly spread poison sentiment. You’re not having a conversation. You’re not helping make things better. You’re just smearing sh*t all over our program.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 9:33 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline? ] |
|
viz,
So do you think we should wait until 2030 to decide whether we are in decline and start to take corrective action ??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16919]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 10775
Joined: 1/25/07
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 10:48 AM
|
|
Who, exactly, is gonna take “corrective” action. I would hope you don’t want anyone so empowered to be reading this board for advice. Given the terms of Dabo’s contract there is no threat of anyone but Dabo, of his own volition, making any such action. So this is ultimately just a thought exercise that casts our fanbase in the worst possible light. Some people (JK for instance) know this and revel in how easily the more easily swayed amongst us are joining this parade.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 1:35 PM
|
|
I am not claiming to have any influence on Emperor Dabo, but I DO have an affinity for reality.
And I hope that Dabo can see past his programming and take active measures to fix it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5395]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3160
Joined: 9/25/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
2
Jan 11, 2023, 5:23 AM
|
|
I feel that the program is at a crossroads and is fixable. How Dabo reacts and adjusts in the off-season will determine if the program is in a decline. Before this season, when was the last time that the Tigers have had two games in one season where the team was totally manhandled? The ND and Tenn games were difficult to watch. The 2023 football campaign is critical to Clemson, Dabo’s legacy, and the trajectory of the football program. Let’s pack DV and cheer on the team.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
what reactions/adjustments do you look for Dabo......
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:07 AM
|
|
to do in the off-season to "determine" a decline?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Good post.
Jan 11, 2023, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline? ] |
|
We are at a crossroads too. The optimist in me can see Dabo fixing it and getting us back. Seeing our defense with all those future NFL players get manhandled by a so so ND team was alarming.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 9:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline? ] |
|
Tigergirl,
I don't disagree with what you have said. There is plenty of hope that the current decline can be reversed with decisive action from Dabo & staff. The problem is that I think that the chances that Dabo TAKES decisive action is strongly correlated with whether he sees or ignores the current decline.
And as I have said below - we will not really know that until next season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
MVP [544]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 496
Joined: 10/20/19
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
3
Jan 11, 2023, 5:37 AM
|
|
If we all just go ahead and agree with you will you please shut up about this and the NIL/Portal already? I'd be willing to do it as long as I can cross my fingers when I say it. I'm not sure why you want to have the same arguments on TNET every day but man its really old and getting older every time you do it. You really are a negative person on this board recently, you know that right? You'd make a great Coot with how you cant stand just being miserable on your own, you have to try and make every fan just as miserable as you are every day. Give it a rest, please.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [44054]
TigerPulse: 81%
Posts: 32967
Joined: 2/22/03
|
It sounds like you’d rather just sit in a circle and rewatch our 44-16 win
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:58 AM
|
|
over Alabama, rather than taking an honest look at what’s going on.
By the way, that win over Alabama was 4 years ago. That’s becoming a more distant memory…
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Really? That's your reply?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 8:57 AM
[ in reply to Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline? ] |
|
That's the tired trope, if anything. You got nothing really to say to make an intelligent rebuttal, so you throw out the old coot name-calling tirade, yawn.
I have been a Clemson fan before you were a twinkle in your dad's eye I bet. Yeah, I am old.
By the way, my post said nothing about NIL or the portal. You should actually read the post before you comment if you want to be taken seriously.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31287
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [31315]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9128
Joined: 8/31/15
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 6:44 AM
|
|
Yea man I would jump ship if I were some of you. Write Neff some letters or something #13 is horrendous. We should be in the playoffs every year.
Can’t recruit, giving young guys a chance to coach and maybe make something of themselves in the sport. Helping out some young men realize their dream of at least competing in a college football game.
Then #### these cultist pumpers they disagree with all the obvious issues that any sane person can see in the program. My self worth depends on how our football team does and right now I feel irrelevant.
Somebody tell Dabo to use the portal #### we are a portal player away from winning this whole thing.
Dabo is horrible, stubborn and makes too much money. I say good riddance to the arrogant prick.
Hope I covered everything. GO TIGERS!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 9:00 AM
|
|
My God, no one is saying get rid of Dabo. I am not even on the fire Goodwin or Streeter bandwagon. I am just saying that we are on a decline, but declines can be reversed.
For the record, I would sign up for two losses every year right now if I could but the way we lost in a couple of games this year was alarming.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10360]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 14030
Joined: 11/9/04
|
yes...& those who says it's on the rise I'd like explanation
3
Jan 11, 2023, 7:01 AM
|
|
we won the national title in DOMINANT fashion in 2018 vs "the standard bearer" of college football at the time in bama.......since then....
-2019 - Lost in National title in dominant fashion to LSU
-2020 - Lost in dominant fashion to Ohio State in the SEMIS
-2021 - worst offensive output in over a decade leading to a 10-3 record....missed playoffs
-2022 - 2nd worst offensive output in over a decade leading to an 11-3 record, while winning the ACC we went 0-3 vs OOC P5 teams for the first time since 1996.......AND lost to South Carolina for the first time in 9 years......AND lost our home losing streak to our rivals no less.
-if you have eyes that can see you should notice that our WR group is atrocious when compared to our 2015-2018/19 teams.........just go look at the OB and see the meaningful PT that Drew Swinney and Brannon Spector got during the game......pathetic for a program like ours
-our coaching hires are vastly inexperienced and highly underqualified to hold the positions they hold at a program like ours
-Our Head coach and staff has lost their fire to win. Our Head coach is the 2nd highest paid coach in the country and has done nothing to adapt to the new world of college football. He is not getting or demanding the BEST for Clemson.......he's using it as a coaching training grounds for his friends and former players.
How long has it been since you've heard "Best is the standard"?
How long since he's said "the best is yet to come"?
How long since we've seen our WRs warmup in WRU shirts???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Heisman Winner [140588]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33880
Joined: 12/5/10
|
I don’t think anyone is arguing there weren’t more losses…
8
8
Jan 11, 2023, 7:05 AM
|
|
in each of the past two seasons. The main difference is in the interpretation of that information. Are the past two seasons evidence the program is declining, or is it part of the natural ebb and flow of a team in the upper echelon of college football. No team makes the playoffs every year. No team wins their conference every year. We had a down year in 2021. We can debate the reasons, but we were down. There is no debating that 2022 was better though. More wins, conference championship, Orange Bowl appearance, much improved offensive stats, etc…
The fact of the matter is we don’t know the answer to the question, “are we in decline”, yet. And anyone who tells you they do know is ignoring data or is a charlatan. Those are facts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Re: I don’t think anyone is arguing there weren’t more losses…
Jan 11, 2023, 9:10 AM
|
|
My post just presented some data, and we should interpret it the way we want to. Thank you for posting something well-thought-out.
First, I agree with the ebb and flow part. This was my hope too, but I think what keeps me from believing that is the way we lose some games to medium-quality teams and the fall of some position groups like WR.
By the way, I am not on here hoping to be right in saying I think we are on a decline. I have been a Clemson fan for almost 50 years. I was at the stadium for the beginning of the first major decline in Clemson football against California, and it wasn't pretty and ended with Dabo. I hope Dabo can also be the one to make improvements again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Walk-On [131]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 120
Joined: 2/20/13
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:37 AM
|
|
Honestly we have declined a little. Whether it be from poor QB play or bad play calling or just a stale offense. Defensively we have declined a little but not enough to where Clemson can't compete for a natty. Recruiting has taken a hit a little but quality is still pretty good. I do feel like Dabo should have went out and got a proven offensive coordinator but I think that will happen after this coming season if the offense doesn't improve.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1155]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 770
Joined: 12/6/04
|
No. The program is on a plateau at or near the top…Maybe simplifying
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:49 AM
|
|
Here, but the last two season’s records are a result of basically three things: 1) a whiff at QB and at WR; specifically with DJ, Ladson, and Ngata, all of which were absolute can’t miss prospects that everyone wanted. 2) The Covid recruiting year was another blow to the WR corps. and maybe 3) first year coordinators learning the ropes.
I feel really good about next year with perceived strength on D, improved QB and WR play, and what I believe will be a much improved and deep OL.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Walk-On [131]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 25
Joined: 3/21/12
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 7:57 AM
|
|
Like it or not, it is hard to argue against it. Whether it be coaching or talent, something has changed and it is showing on the field more and more every year. Still waiting for the "BEST IS YET TO COME" adage to come to fruition, again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Team Captain [488]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 3547
Joined: 2/16/02
|
based on your metric, yes!***
Jan 11, 2023, 8:20 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4159]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3989
Joined: 1/22/03
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 8:28 AM
|
|
I don't necessarily think we are in a decline rather than other teams have adapted to the new landscape and are navigating the waters better than we are. Recruiting wise we are still recruiting at a high level. our staff is not as good as it was and I feel some changes need to be made there. Our staff's unwillingness to use the tool that is the transfer portal to our benefit is asinine to me but Dabo is paid millions to run the program, I don't know what will have to happen to change that attitude but either we dive in the deep end and swim with the sharks or we stay in the pond and play with the minnows and claim we are doing it the right way! At some point to compete at the highest level you will have to augment your roster with elite talent even if they are only there for a year!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3141]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2981
Joined: 11/11/02
|
I hate to dump, but
1
Jan 11, 2023, 8:29 AM
|
|
the DJ experiment set the offense back a little.
DJ was hot filling in for Trevor with Covid. We all thought that he would continue it into 2021. UGA took his mojo and he never really recovered. If we had a viable option then, he might had been benched. Blame that on poor QB recruiting. TP wasn't it.
In 2022, Cade was never given the chance. Blame it on coaching again and stubbornness with the DJ experiment. We got by on most games. DJ had a nice game against FSU! Against ND, we met a stout D. Against SC, his performance was terrible, but we were getting by, until TO's happened. It reminded me of the loss in the Dead Cockroach when we fumbled several times and didn't run it enough. DJ just never had that "Let's be great!" spark that DW and TL had.
Against Tenn, Cade really hadn't had enough time to mesh with his receivers and he tried a little too hard. He practiced with the 1's before the season and not until before the ACCCG. Blame that on the DJ experiment and coaching.
WR suffered during this time. The D was on the field a lot...but held their own for the most part.
I think we had a little setback, but could easily get back to where we need to be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Your post was dumping at all
Jan 11, 2023, 9:17 AM
|
|
We can try and blame DJ for everything, and I certainly think it was a factor, but the defense looked lost at times too.
The defense, with all these future NFL players, got physically dominated in the ND game. That didn't happen to a CBV defense.
I agree that it can easily be turned around, but the million-dollar question is, will it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10822]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 9006
Joined: 12/8/02
|
The defense was horrible for half the game
Jan 11, 2023, 9:42 AM
|
|
On multiple occasions. We replaced a seasoned pro with an amateur
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: I hate to dump, but
Jan 11, 2023, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to I hate to dump, but ] |
|
I wish Cade had performed better when given a great opportunity in Week 3 at home vs La Tech. A 28-point lead later in the 3rd quarter. Two stalled drives (7 plays, 1 first down) unfortunately led to two La Tech TD's, cutting the lead to 14 with 9:30 to play. The Experiment is put back in, we rattle off two more TD's to put the game away, and that was that. From there we're immediately in the heart of ACC division play, where the Experiment thrived.
DJ folding under positive press and accolades is a head-scratcher. At ND his freshman year, there was less pressure as no matter what we did there, we'd have a rematch in the ACCCG, with TL16 back under center. Heading into 2021, as a Heisman front-runner and '3rd coming' as Clemson QB - he fell apart. TP was obviously not healed up enough from his spring achilles tear, but at that point it's pretty tough to patch up the spot. Once we were totally out of the picture and unranked, DJ's game picked back up. Heading into 2022, the expectations for DJ were minimal at best. Hopeful, but minimal. So what does he do then? Thrives, up to the point where the accolades start coming back in and we're in the national picture. Then kerplop.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3141]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2981
Joined: 11/11/02
|
I'm not sure, but when Cade came in
Jan 11, 2023, 1:54 PM
|
|
wasn't the offense switched out with lots of 2's and maybe some 3's?
DJ's performances are head scratchers. He looked good at FSU, adequate in the middle, and not good at the end.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3223]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 1548
Joined: 11/9/11
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 9:12 AM
|
|
There no doubt we taken steps towards decline. However, we are still pretty good. The best is the standard. The problems are obvious. The fix is much harder. Dabo needs to admit his hubris and hire elite coordinators and position coaches instead of buddies/friends/former players. Nepotism is alive and well and killing the program.
Dynasties always fall. I remember telling posters on here to enjoy the run because it will end. I’ve seen Charlie Pell-Dabo Swinney. I’ve been to the mountaintop 3 times. I want to see it many more. If Dabo doesn’t wake up, we will be perennial top 15 team. Which, isn’t bad. USuCk would love that success.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18792]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12823
Joined: 11/30/95
|
Wow, you even witnessed the Pell decline
Jan 11, 2023, 9:23 AM
|
|
I only saw the Hatfield-induced one. A friend and I were at the California game, and we walked away knowing the 80s/early 90s run was over.
This is the feeling I get now, sadly. Not that I don't appreciate everything that was done. I am just coming to terms with the recent declining dynasty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [10476]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 11567
Joined: 6/29/01
|
Probably. Or has been.***
Jan 11, 2023, 9:13 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
No, but a fair portion of our fan base sure is.
Jan 11, 2023, 9:14 AM
|
|
Considering your incessant psychobabble on the doom and gloom and the malign forces that Dabo is suddenly wielding, I'm thinking you were one of those pre-season predicting this year was likely a 6-6 kind of thing, right? After 2021? With DJ pegged as the starter? Am I wrong here?
|
|
|
|
|
|
MVP [531]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 241
Joined: 3/19/05
|
Re: No, but a fair portion of our fan base sure is.
Jan 11, 2023, 9:28 AM
|
|
The Portal will settle down.......new rules.......having to sit out, etc.
The NIL?, not so much.
BUYING players is in.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [16262]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12789
Joined: 11/14/09
|
Re: No, but a fair portion of our fan base sure is.
Jan 11, 2023, 9:56 AM
|
|
It's a good thing that Dabo got out in front of the NIL factor as it was developing. Many folks have trouble recalling that he immediately engaged our media and marketing arm to assist with player branding for this very purpose, an effort that has since evolved to a department-wide office and vehicle. And if you've seen our graphics and media department's work, you know it's a top class endeavor.
Many also may forget, in a twist of irony, that DJ was one of the first NIL recipients in the nation with his national Dr. Pepper deal and campaign. A painful reminder of NIL's downside.
As far as paying players up front to sign on here, either high school or transfer, yeah - not going to happen. Instead, according to comments from several of our incoming Dudes, our recruits are banking on earning it on the field and leveraging that success into NIL income as their career develops here, utilizing our professional, state-of-the-art program. Dabo is recruiting the type of kid that believes enough in themselves, and in the team and program. Yet another Top 10 recruiting class is all the testament I need to see that this approach is effective. Add in the return of all those NFL-bound players for another season, players ripe for NIL plucking from others, or NFL dollars, and having no such talent transfer out, this is again a testament to how effective Dabo's NIL approach is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 9:22 AM
|
|
From 2015 to 2020 Clemson was ranked in the top 4 with the likes of Bama, OSU, and Georgia.
In 2021 and 2022 Clemson was ranked in the second 10 with the likes of Pittsburgh, Wake, and Kansas State.
I think that this is the very definition of a team in decline.
Is this just a blip on the radar screen or are we seeing the beginning of a trend that sees us relegated to the bottom half of the top 25. NO ONE KNOWS. The coming months will begin to give us an inclination, but it won't be until the 2023 games are played until we get any meaningful, accurate data.
This will NOT stop many of us here and elsewhere from wildly speculating in the absence of said data.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6397]
TigerPulse: 97%
Posts: 3906
Joined: 12/4/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
1
Jan 11, 2023, 9:38 AM
|
|
This isn't even a debate.
Clemson has clearly declined, especially at the QB/WR position.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 1:19 PM
|
|
Leon,
I think after DW4 and TL16, some decline was inevitable. The problem was how much of a drop off there was. Here's hoping the Klubnik/Vinniza can bring us back up to an acceptable level.
I certainly agree about the wide receivers, but I am of the opinion that one downfield stud who could win 50/50 balls and draw some double coverage would unlock a world of potential in the rest of our WR corp
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22393]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31287
Joined: 11/30/98
|
No.
Jan 11, 2023, 10:08 AM
|
|
We were better this year than last and I expect us to be better next year. Much better. That would be the opposite of decline.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [6452]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 3734
Joined: 6/3/18
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 10:26 AM
|
|
Yes, for the past two years, Clemson has definitely been in a decline. The combination of DJ being a dud, the O line being exposed for what it has been for years, Jeff Scott, Tony Elliott, and Brent Venables leaving, then Dabo hiring inexperienced people to replace them…all combined for this decline. The drop-off in WR performance/recruiting is astounding…thanks Tyler Grisham (another Dabo friend).
For the past two years, this team has looked soft and ill-prepared for the vast majority of games. Furman and Louisiana played harder than Clemson did in those games. There has been a lack of leadership on the team. It’s sad when Shipley had to step up and lead because no one else was willing to….
The defense has been missing that meanness that was present with BV.
Can it all be fixed?? Yes. But it’s all on Dabo. He will not be firing anyone this off season. He has to adapt to the new college football landscape. Will he use the portal to acquire needed players in certain positions? I believe Goodwin will be okay at defense, but it will not be the same as we’re used to. The offense is what concerns me the most…the combination of Streeter and Dabo calling plays, the underdevelopment of WRs, and the underwhelming recruiting with RBs (CJ Spiller, RB coach and former player). Please utilize Mafah more!! The O line has got to improve or Cade will end up seriously injured at some point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 2975
Joined: 6/24/11
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 11:46 AM
|
|
We can have this discussion if the team gets blown out again next year. I think what we saw the last 2 years is exactly what we saw when Cole Stoudt took over as QB except Dabo had some bizzare loyalty or promise to keep to DJ. I want to see what the team looks like when passing is viable again and the defense isn't getting hammered an entire game. The team talent wise is missing some burners at wr outside of that this is an extremely talented team. The dbs are talented and athletic but playing a bunch of true freshmen and 2nd year guys had growing pains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [4365]
TigerPulse: 80%
Posts: 8370
Joined: 1/4/17
|
Re: Is the Clemson program truly in decline?
Jan 11, 2023, 1:38 PM
|
|
A lot of people on here are conflating current decline with continued decline.
I think it is undeniable that we are in current decline. I am hopeful that we will not continue in a downward direction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 99
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
