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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:15 PM
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I hear the same drivel from the haters on this board constantly. "Same ole same ol" "Brownell hasn't improved this team since he has been here". All of this is completely false, and shows that the majority of the vocal haters don't actually watch our team regularly.
This data set below compares the last 6 years to the 6 years prior. I did not include B-Rad's first year to make the year totals even, and to appease the haters that try to convince the masses that B-Rad's successes in his first year don't count because it was purnell's players (even though we actually won a tourney game without the best player to play under purnell). I will refer to the seasons as "first 6" (2011-2016) and "last 6" (2017-2022)
SOS (as shown on Sports Reference. Higher number the better): First 6 - 6.31 Last 6 - 7.61
Overall Win %: First 6 - 53% Last 6 - 61%
Conference Win %: First 6 - 43% Last 6 - 54%
NCAA Tourney Appearances: First 6 - 0 Last 6 - 2
NCAA Tourney Win %: First 6 - N/A Last 6 - 50%
ACC Tourney Win %: First 6 - 25% Last 6 44%
Ranked Wins: First 6 - 7 Last 6 - 11
Ranked Win %: First 6 18% Last 6 - 32%
Top 10 Wins: First 6 - 2 Last 6 - 3
20 Win Seasons: First 6 - 2 Last 6 - 3 (counting the shortened covid year as a 20 win season)
Average Recruiting Ranking: First 6 - 68 Last 6 - 43
As you can see, there has been much improvement over the last 6 years. Every single metric goes in favor of the last 6 years. We have recruited better, we have had more NCAA tourney success, we have won more games in conference. We have done all of this while playing a much harder schedule. If you say there has been no improvement, you are blinded by your hatred of Brownell. I attribute the slow start from B-Rad to a few things. Other than year 1, the talent leftover from Purnell was below average, and recruited to play in a completely different system. B-Rad didn't have a recruiting class in year 1 and his recruiting class in year 2 was very overrated. They were all busts w/ the exception of KJ Mcdaniels and Rod Hall. Recruiting is certainly on Brownell, but when you don't have a first class and your second class is filled with busts -2, then it is going to be very hard to be successful. As you all know, we have rarely recruited talent that have been game changers as freshman, especially in the last 30 years. Either way, there has been much improvement.
I also decided to compare Brownell's last 6 years to Purnell's last 6 years (didn't include his first year to keep things consistent)
SOS: BB - 7.61 OP - 7.53
Overall Win %: BB - 61% OP - 65%
Conference Win %: BB - 54% OP - 48%
NCAA Tourney Appearances: BB - 2 OP - 3
NCAA Tourney Win %: BB - 50% OP - 0%
ACC Tourney Win %: BB - 44% OP - 33%
Ranked Wins: BB - 11 OP - 6
Ranked Win %: BB - 32% OP - 21%
Top 10 Wins: BB - 3 OP - 2
20 Win Seasons: BB - 3 (counting the shortened covid year as a 20 win season) OP - 4
Average Recruiting Ranking: BB: - 43 OP - 49 (must have been a typo on 247 where it ranked his class w/ Ray Sykes and KC Rivers I believe as like 250. I adjusted that to 100)
As you can see, it is very arguable that the last 6 years from Brownell is better than OP's last 6 years. Again, if you liked OP as a coach, but hate Brownell then you are simply blinded by your hatred of brownell. OP was able to get off to a faster start than BB mainly because he was able to recruit a solid player in his first year in vernon hamilton, and his first full class were mostly hits! (cliff hammonds, James Mayes, and Sam Perry). His leftovers from Shyatt in year 2 were very comparable to what was leftover from OP in BB's year 2. The SOS in Brownell's last 6 years is slightly better than OP's. OP has the slight advantage in overall win %, but Brownell bests him in conference win %. Brownell has won more ranked matchups, beaten more top 10 teams, and has done way better in the NCAA and ACC tournaments. If I had to choose, I would choose Brownell's last 6 years being better. I enjoy beating ranked teams and performing better in conference play and tourneys. The conference was probably better during the OP days, but OP played creampuff OOC schedules year after year.
Let's hear it haters!
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Legend [16961]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:21 PM
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where the losses at?
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:37 PM
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I didnt out total wins did i?
I know you dont use your brain, but losses are accounted for in win %. Lmao.
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Hall of Famer [24226]
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This is tainted by the presentation of a shill. Shill #2 to be exact
Jan 11, 2024, 12:38 PM
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All-TigerNet [10217]
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: SMH .. its where are the losses ?
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:41 PM
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Hahahaha. You do realize that losses is accointrd for in win % right? Did i put total wins and not total losses? You must not be the sharpest knife in the drawer.
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110%er [5683]
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Dude, you're fighting a losing battle
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:21 PM
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The product is crap, quit making excuses…
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Dude, you're fighting a losing battle
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:37 PM
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No.
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All-In [32656]
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And now our guy is pushing our players DURING play on the court.
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:50 PM
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Wow.
Not good.
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Trainer [26]
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110%er [5683]
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CU Medallion [67853]
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Re: Dude, you're fighting a losing battle
Jan 11, 2024, 12:50 PM
[ in reply to Dude, you're fighting a losing battle ] |
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I'm not happy with it either but it is not like he ran a Ferrari of a program into a ditch. He sort of keeps retuning the old Buick geezer mobile and gets a few more miles out of it.
Now the last 3 games we've looked bad and I would say actually worse with each successive game. Let the season finish and react accordingly. If he can't get these guys to buy in on playing D and playing a little smarter then the choice is clear. I hate to see PJ's last eligibility wasted this year but recently has been worse than anything you would expect to see.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:25 PM
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Man I’m not sure I can take you seriously anymore. You and JK seem more concerned with defending Brownell than making the program better. It’s strange.
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Legend [16037]
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EGGXACTLY***
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:27 PM
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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110%er [6964]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:28 PM
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Legend [16037]
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Lol, okay.
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:28 PM
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This is pitiful.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Lol, okay.
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:38 PM
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No rebuttal huh?
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Trainer [26]
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You ignore the important facts, like two top 40s in 14 yrs.
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Jan 11, 2024, 3:58 PM
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You ignore the important facts, and you just keep posting the same stuff that’s been defeated numerous times.
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Orange Blooded [2134]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:34 PM
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What I don't see in the numbers is the ACC's standard of being the best basketball conference to 4th or 5th. So you'd have to imagine the difference in success from the first 6 to the last 6 has to be in part due to the ACC's dramatic fall in elite teams.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 12:36 PM
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I pulled overall sos schedule which is better the last 6 years than the first 6 years, and also better than the schedule OP faced.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 12:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers ] |
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I pulled overall sos schedule which is better the last 6 years than the first 6 years, and also better than the schedule OP faced.
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Legend [16263]
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Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:37 PM
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Four-Year Recruiting Average: 35.75
Four-Year Salary Ranking: 40-ish?
Four-Year Program Budget Rank: 40-ish?
Four-Year Average Net Finish: 75
By the numbers Brad produces results nearly 2x worse than his recruiting average, salary, and program budget. And recruiting numbers don't count portal transfers, which according to you has clearly been a net gain every year that he's replacing half of his recruits. So he's faring even worse with his talent than above.
Spin that, junior.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:39 PM
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Have we improved over brownell's tenure or not? Recruitj g numbers do count transfers. Lmao. Clueless much?
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Legend [16263]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:17 PM
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Hey #### for brains. The 247 recruiting rankings I shared do not include transfers.
For the insulting dweeb you are one would think you wouldn't be so lazy or ignorant, or both.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 1:20 PM
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Man, this post really got you triggered. Calm down.
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Trainer [26]
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Lets take a vote on who is the clown.
Jan 11, 2024, 4:03 PM
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You’d get destroyed, Judge.
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All-In [32656]
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Trainer [26]
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Youre ignoring the important facts like wildbill showed.
Jan 11, 2024, 4:01 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers ] |
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You’re Judge Keller and have nothing new to offer in your failing efforts.
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CU Guru [1912]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to Brad Brownell - By The Numbers ] |
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Brad = Tommy Bowden, period. No ACC titles, embarrassing losses mixed with an occasional unexpected win. 14 years of mediocrity is enough! Like Bowden, I like Brownell, nut Clemson can do better, no, should do better!
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 12:49 PM
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Its fine if you want better. We all do. I dont really care of your opinion unless you can afmit that we have improved immensely over brownell, and OP also sucked.
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All-In [31315]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 4:24 PM
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I have never said OP was great. If I’m talking better coaches it would be Barnes. They all played creampuffs. Take those out of all these guys numbers then they all look avg or even below average. Brownell is not the worst coach we ever had. I would give that award that to Shyatt.
But back to the post I’m a little lost in comparing Brownell to the other coaches. It has been 10 plus years since they have been gone and that means Brownell has had the time to feast on more cream puffs. One would think by the law of averages his winning percentage would be higher or am I missing something? Again not sure if I can take you seriously and not sure if anyone thinks Brownell is the worst coach we ever had either.
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All-TigerNet [10929]
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So six years to recover from past sins and then another six years
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:42 PM
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to get marginally 10% better in most of your metrics?
If I just stepped back and measured success in ACC tournament wins/championship and deep NCAA or NIT tournament runs, we are still lacking.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: So six years to recover from past sins and then another six years
Jan 11, 2024, 12:52 PM
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We all would like to do better. This season is still poised to be a good one. We have our best ranked recruiting class under brownell coming in
We are still improving. It's fine if you still want a new coach! It doesnt mean we haven't improved.
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All-TigerNet [10929]
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True for many parts of life and civil jobs. In sports your defined by consistent
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:08 PM
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winning and translating that to championships. That’s why any comparison to Dabo and the football program is silly.
We have a brand new baseball coach and he won an ACC championship. We had a first year softball coach who won an ACC championship.
We need Brad to do his job.
Message was edited by: NorthwestPurple®
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Trainer [26]
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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The highest % listed in that entire post was 65%...
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:45 PM
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and that wasn't even CBB's.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: The highest % listed in that entire post was 65%...
Jan 11, 2024, 12:51 PM
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Correct. OP had a slightly higher win% but also played a lesser schedule. He also beat way less ranked teams, and also performed worse in Tournaments.
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Heisman Winner [140604]
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Your OP/CBB comparison is flawed...
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:58 PM
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you are comparing CBB's years 7-12 (maybe 8-13 if you didn't count year 1?) to OP's years 2-7. Could you go back and do the math for CBB years
2-7?
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: Your OP/CBB comparison is flawed...
Jan 11, 2024, 2:46 PM
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Looks like you stumped her Francis Marion.
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Trainer [26]
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All-In [30460]
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How many trophies? How many elite eights? How many final fours?
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:55 PM
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How many ACC championships? How many ACC title games?
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Orange Blooded [3628]
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Re: How many trophies? How many elite eights? How many final fours?
Jan 11, 2024, 5:17 PM
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The titles and championships should be easy to count …nada..
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 12:57 PM
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So, your point is that there is progress?
Fine...if that's what the numbers say.
But the reality is, it's too little progress and too much time. If your salary goes up $1000/year, are you progressing? Are you happy with that progression?
The bottom line remains the same - we are mediocre, we consistently hit elongated dips in league play, and we flail out in March. Until that changes, no cherry-picked 6-year blobs of stats will matter.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 1:01 PM
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Our team this year is not mediocre and that will bare out with the remainder of the season. If they dont, then we will have a new coach.
His best class IMO are currently sophomores. His best rated class is still not on campus.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:04 PM
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His best class IMO are currently sophomores. His best rated class is still not on campus.
I've heard that excuse in at least 5 different calendar years. Each new class "is his best ever". Then the NBA talent transfers out, we lose games we shouldn't, and the cycle starts over.
You are a copy and paste of a Coot Football fan. Next year is our year!
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:22 PM
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Its almost like that means recruiting is improving huh? His best recruiting was pj hall, lynn kidd, and omax. 2 of the 3 unfortunately transferred. Then we recruited godrey, dillon hunter, and wiggins. That was his new best imo. Then he has a recruiting class that is his highest rated incoming. Who knows what will bare out, but it is his highest rated. Cheers.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:24 PM
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Yes, same old story year in year out without any significant improvement on court or tournament success as a result.
Now you sound like an old UGA fan touting your annual recruiting championship.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 1:28 PM
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I laid out non cherry picked numbers for you to analyze. If i cherry picked, what stats would you like to see included that will give us a better picture of improvement? Im all ears. Ju tell me, and i will get them for you. Very easy stuff.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 1:31 PM
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FM already laid it out for you. Compare years 2-7.
Actually, don't. None of this matters. Slight progress over 6-year summarized periods does not actually accomplish anything. What you are doing is exposing yet more proof of mediocrity and lack of any meaningful on-court success.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:18 PM
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All the numbers are there for you to digest. You can spon how you want.
2 things that are clear....
- we have improved in every metric innthe last 6 years compared to the first 6.
- the last 6 years have been better than purnell's last 6 years. If you were happy with purnell's teams, then you shouldnt hate brownell's teams over the lst 6 years.
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Orange Blooded [3559]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:04 PM
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The fact that you had to pick out so much specific information is the first red flag.
Second, you are comparing Brad to past Clemson coaches. Which is understandable, you’re making an argument regarding Clemson basketball coaches and how Brad has appeared to fair better.
But you cannot sit there and tell me that Oliver Purnell’s teams were not better.
Clemson basketball even with PJ Hall and others is just not intimidating. There’s no pressure on other teams that have great programs.
Just from the pure stance of on court performance, Purnell had players that hustled more, that played better, and pressured the other team every way.
So, comparing Brad to coast Clemson coaches statistically does not give him enough merit because of past Clemson failure to get in the tournament and to lose in the first round if they did. Most coaches we’ve ever had.
I believe the resources at Clemson allow for a much more consistent team and coach. Even with being a football school.
I see true success someday here, I just don’t see it anymore with Brad. I’ve seen the best he can do. We all have. And it was pretty good. But I think Brad’s lost the formula, if he ever had it.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:07 PM
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In the last 6 years, BB's teams have performed better than OP's last 6 years IMO. Facts are facts. BB's teams have faced a slightly tougher schedule, have nearly double the amount of ranked wins, and has performed significantly better in tournaments.
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110%er [5512]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:17 PM
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So, you are saying that after 13 years, BB is finally the coach that OP was after 6 years. Relevance?
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Varsity [223]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 8:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers ] |
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Whatever you say. All I know is OP’s teams were a whole lot more fun to watch than the BB patented pass the ball around the perimeter to take a poor shot when the clock strikes 1. Or even better force the ball inside for a turnover. Basketball is entertainment, of late I have not been entertained..
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CU Guru [1374]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:09 PM
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Thanks for taking the time to do this. This increases my desire to see Brad go. Minimal improvement and only 2 tournament appearances in 12 years. This just proves the Brad haters point. Almost laughable.
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MVP [528]
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Like comparing bad to really bad***
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:21 PM
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CU Guru [1893]
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Re: Like comparing bad to really bad***
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Jan 11, 2024, 1:48 PM
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Yes, it really proves abject mediocrity. And someone is happy with an 8 point increase in winning % in 6 years.
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Legend [16263]
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Lulz. A $65 Million investment in Littlejohn and practice facilities and
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Jan 11, 2024, 3:32 PM
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locker rooms for Brad to turn the corner and it amounts to 8 whole percentage points in 6 years as improvement? And we're about to commit another $40 Mil more under this guy?
Sorry, but that is a horrible ROI so far.
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:25 PM
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Most losses in Clemson history...
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Legend [16921]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:41 PM
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This a giant pile of #######. It’s not even worth tearing apart the dishonesty and logical fallacies.
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Legend [16921]
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Heres a flag - coot
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:43 PM
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Let’s get this garbage out of here.
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110%er [8009]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:45 PM
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If Brownell was actually getting the job done some of you Brad fan boys wouldn’t need to try so hard.
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All-In [27193]
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Re: Why didn't you include the first 6 years??????
Jan 11, 2024, 2:48 PM
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this is what we refer to as a "skewed" sample. So None of these so-called stats can be called reliable as they are not an accurate population sample.
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All-In [28416]
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Jan 11, 2024, 2:50 PM
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Trainer [26]
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People who see reality dont hate Brad.
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:51 PM
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Why are they “haters”?
All those numbers you posted don’t change the fact we have two top-40 finishes in 13 years.
Spin that, Judge Keller.
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Starter [390]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 2:59 PM
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Wow, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to defend Brownell. The last 3 games really got you rattled Mountain man?
I see you’re already talking about next year’s recruiting class. This recitation makes me think you are close to throwing in the towel for this year. Not much left to defend.
Btw, if you are a Clemson graduate , you would know it’s “bear out” not “bare out”.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 7:10 PM
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Yes, i am the one that is rattled. 😂😂😂😂
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All-American [556]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 3:01 PM
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Oh I see. At this rate we will be above average in about 12 years?
And btw, I don’t hate him, just dislike mediocrity.
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All-TigerNet [13530]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 3:07 PM
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# of finishes in the final AP Top 35 poll over the last 13 seasons- 1
I'd kind of like to get off the snide and see us begin to actually make progress in this area.
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CU Guru [1686]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 3:19 PM
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Judgekeller is this your burner account?
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110%er [5683]
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 4:00 PM
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You sound like my teenager explaining to me why he got a C on his report card.
The program is a no better shape than it was when he took it over. 14 wasted years.
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Orange Blooded [2669]
TigerPulse: 81%
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 7:11 PM
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Yes it is, and the stats i provided proves it. It's not my fault that you cant understand.
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110%er [6982]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 9:34 PM
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Lol, understand what? Purnell took over a dumpster fire and turned it into a winning program. Brownell was handed a winner and has done nothing. Stick to cleaning your parents gutters
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Recruit [89]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
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Jan 11, 2024, 4:14 PM
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QBR numbers are worthless if it doesn't result in overall performance. Here are some numbers to review: He has been at Clemson for 13 seasons....13! He has 3 NCAA appearances, 4 NIT appearances with early defeats, overall record of 252-181 at Clemson (.582 percentage), and most of those victories have come from smaller schools. If you are okay with 18-11 seasons on average, with little success against the Duke, UNC, and Miami programs, then he's your guy. If you desire to see the Tigers go to Final Fours, a mainstay in the Top 10, and a threat to win an NCAA Title, Brownell is NOT your guy. His 13-14 seasons have proven that. It depends upon how high or low your bar is raised.
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Varsity [211]
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All this tells me is we should've fired CBB after the first 6 years!***
Jan 11, 2024, 7:07 PM
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All-In [27374]
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Joined: 8/19/03
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I totally support
Jan 11, 2024, 8:43 PM
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The initial post. OP was a total disgrace to Tiger basketball. You would have to be a totally ignorant jerk to idolize that character who walked out on his team without even a good bye! Far, far from being a Clemson man,
When is the last time you heard his name mentioned by the tv experts???
That jerk on the sec network is a better man than OP…. And that ain’t saying much. BB isn’t a great coach but Clemson has NEVER been a quality basketball team.
You will see this team respond from the last couple of games. BB knows what needs to be done….. and seeking advice from the so called supporters on tnet ain’t one of them!
Go Tigers
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Trainer [34]
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Re: Brad Brownell - By The Numbers
Jan 11, 2024, 9:24 PM
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So basically if Brad coaches here for another 30 years we will be a juggernaut after year 24?
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Orange Blooded [2753]
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Joined: 10/18/06
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THAT was an AWFUL post ...
Jan 12, 2024, 7:41 AM
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The number-crunching was impressive, but if you have to parse statistics that finely to make your point float, then you're basically acknowledging that the matter needs microscopic examination in order to be seen ... that the progress is too meager to readily see unless one chops up the numbers exquisitely and puts them in said six-and-six orientation (what about the last ten years? Or the last five? Why just the last six over and against the prior six?).
The fact is that we're not awful, nor have we tanked, nor have we been bereft of any level if improvement at various stages, but we've plateaued to about the same level, by-and-large, with many of the same trends season-in and season-out, for a while.
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Orange Blooded [3730]
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Joined: 11/4/03
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STILL? Seriously? Please post topics that are truly RELEVANT to the
Jan 12, 2024, 8:17 AM
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survival of the human race.
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