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Replies: 29
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Hall of Famer [24111]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 11:43 AM
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There is a lot about Heaven and Hell that comes from some inventive imaginations and not the Bible.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 12:32 PM
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Did you read the article?
In the first part of the "bible", The Old Testament, there was no "hell"...
"The vast majority of these people naturally assume this is what Jesus himself taught. But that is not true. Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain."
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CU Medallion [58428]
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I'd really like for somebody to explain to me the purpose of a place
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Mar 24, 2024, 1:01 PM
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of eternal suffering. It's another thing I was taught that makes zero sense, i.e. "water is not wet".
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Commissioner [980]
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It's a great way to scare you into believing what they are selling.
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Mar 24, 2024, 1:15 PM
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Do you think people would show up in droves to give 10% of their income if they didn't have a fear of hell?
I think not.
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CU Medallion [58428]
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I always understood it to be a form of punishment; a consequence for
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Mar 24, 2024, 1:27 PM
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doing evil, or failing to believe certain teachings. The problem with that is, just punishment is designed to teach and deter. Obviously, the fear of hell doesn't work worthashit as a deterent, so that must not be it. So how exactly do we learn from the actual experience of eternal torment? I mean, we don't have a chance to come out on the other side reformed, having learned our lesson. So the point of hell can't be to teach us a lesson. It sounds like it is designed to simply torture unmercifully the beings that God supposedly loves beyond comprehension.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I always understood it to be a form of punishment; a consequence for
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Mar 24, 2024, 1:35 PM
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>The problem with that is, just punishment is designed to teach and deter.
100% agree
>Obviously, the fear of hell doesn't work worthashit as a deterent, so that must not be it.
I'm not sure I agree. I think it works well for people who actually believe it. I don't think Jesus would be a popular figure at all if hell was removed from he equation.
If hell doesn't exist, and someone asked you to follow Jesus, what reason would you then have? I'm sure some people still would but it would be a far lesser percentage.
>So how exactly do we learn from the actual experience of eternal torment?
I don't think that's the purpose of it all. It's literally a tool to get people in line. Eternal punishment isn't just and it certainly isn't loving. If any man said they would allow one of their kids to be tortured forever they would rightly be labeled a psychopath. But when god let's most of the people who have and ever will exist burn for eternity... well, you've seen the outcome.
> I mean, we don't have a chance to come out on the other side reformed, having learned our lesson. So the point of hell can't be to teach us a lesson. It sounds like it is designed to simply torture unmercifully the beings that God supposedly loves beyond comprehension.
yeah, it's a great point.
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CU Medallion [58428]
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Re: I always understood it to be a form of punishment; a consequence for
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Mar 24, 2024, 1:54 PM
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Of course the fear of hell works to some extent, for some people. Yet all over the world, evil thrives, and always has. My point is, if it is intended as a deterent, you'd think a all powerful God could do better. In fact, you'd think an all powerful God could eliminate sin and evil altogether, in the blink of an eye, if he really didn't want it. The fact that he doesn't do that is a pretty solid indicator that one of two possibilities is true: (A) God wants evil to exist, or (B) God can't do anything about evil, and is not all-powerful after all.
It is certainly used as a tool to get people in line, no doubt, but I don't think that's how or why it came about. I think the idea emerged as a way to explain why evil seemed to triumph over good so often; hell would be a payback for the evil doers, and believing that gave the good people who were mistreated a glimmer of hope, and a way to rationalize what seemed like endless, unbearable abuse.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I always understood it to be a form of punishment; a consequence for
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Mar 24, 2024, 5:15 PM
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All good points.
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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I'll give my opinion of what the Bible says, teaches and means.
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Mar 25, 2024, 4:13 AM
[ in reply to I'd really like for somebody to explain to me the purpose of a place ] |
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I hope you try to understand.
The primary reason for hell is that God is Holy. Like having a small drop of urine in a punch bowl He refuses to have the least sin in His presence. Holy is one of those concepts like infinity or eternity. We have a basic understanding that the latter two mean without limit but we can't seem to grasp the concept of holy being absolute.
Part of that reason is that God is The Loving God whose mercy is everlasting. We want to ask why can't He violate His standard of Holy or why isn't His eternal love and mercy overwhelming His eternal, infinite holiness? Hang in there Smiling, it's not that complex.
The primary function of Jesus was to fulfill the law of sin and death and take the punishment for our sin(s). That is the love of God on display. Even yet, some refuse that free gift, some don't believe but most, or many, feel they have no obligation to God. Pride, lust...there are many reasons men refuse God's gift.
The creation of a place in which God is not present, in which His Spirit does not abide was necessary. Christians view Hell as that particular place of separation from God. Now back to God's omnipresence.
The 'torture,' of which you speak is simply a place where God is not. The absence of God's Spirit must be the most miserable existence possible. I believe the Bible calls it the lake of fire simply because that's the most practical way to relate it to humans.
These opinions are based on what scripture says about Heaven, Hell and our state of being in the life after this one.
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Re: I'll give my opinion of what the Bible says, teaches and means.
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Mar 25, 2024, 6:38 AM
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So the reason he tortures most people for eternity is because he is holy. Got it. Totally makes sense.
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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I said nothing about torturing people.
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Mar 25, 2024, 8:29 AM
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I said you guise will be in a place where God is not. That doesn't seem to bother you now, why do you think it would then?
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: I said nothing about torturing people.
Mar 25, 2024, 9:13 AM
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You did though, you said hell. If that’s not considered torture then nothing is
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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How can you, with any measure of honesty, ignore my words and...
Mar 25, 2024, 2:30 PM
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accuse me of lying?
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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Oh, I see what's happened.
Mar 25, 2024, 2:32 PM
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You're too emotional about this to be able to comprehend simple English.
"The creation of a place in which God is not present, in which His Spirit does not abide was necessary. Christians view Hell as that particular place of separation from God. Now back to God's omnipresence.
The 'torture,' of which you speak is simply a place where God is not. The absence of God's Spirit must be the most miserable existence possible. I believe the Bible calls it the lake of fire simply because that's the most practical way to relate it to humans."
Where did I mention torture? If you're happy without God now you'll surely be fine in the afterlife.
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Commissioner [980]
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Re: Oh, I see what's happened.
Mar 25, 2024, 2:41 PM
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>You're too emotional about this to be able to comprehend simple English.
Sure, eternal fire isn't torture, you're right, i'm the one not understanding.
>Where did I mention torture? If you're happy without God now you'll surely be fine in the afterlife.
You mentioned hell. If fire and gnashing of teeth isn't torture then I don't know what to tell you.
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CU Guru [1381]
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Re: Oh, I see what's happened.
Mar 25, 2024, 7:12 PM
[ in reply to Oh, I see what's happened. ] |
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I don’t think this is what most christian’s believe at all. I hear tell that he’ll is a literal place that heathens will burn. I do believe that this was likely what you said, but most christians that I know (I don’t know all of them) believe it as a place of eternal torture.
So far I have no evidence that any god or supernatural being has had anything to do with my life.
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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Yes, that is what most Christians believe but fire and darkness will not be..
Mar 26, 2024, 2:59 AM
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the worst part of hell. God's absence will be the real torture. You can relate to fire, darkness and perhaps even the absolute absence of any other life. You don't appreciate God because you don't know Him.
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Commissioner [980]
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CU Medallion [58428]
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Legend [17918]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 4:22 PM
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An article by one who clearly does not have a fundamental Christian belief system.
Took some time to read the same [old] why Jesus didn't say what he said, and, why the Old Testament folks didn't believe in a resurrection statement again. Here is a simple response.
>>Unlike most Greeks, ancient Jews traditionally did not believe the soul could exist at all apart from the body.
>>The Hebrew Bible itself assumes that the dead are simply dead—that their body lies in the grave, and there is no consciousness, ever again.
There was teaching among Jewish leadership that the death was the end. The Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection of the soul, however, the Pharisees did. Jesus taught this as well. Also consider this, man is made in the image of God, which includes a spirit/soul that does not die. Which Jesus does teach.
A few things Jesus taught:
John 15:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
Matthew 22:23-33
The same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to Him and asked Him, saying: “Teacher, Moses said that if a man dies, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. Last of all the woman died also. Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.
But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.
Old Testament Teaching on [heaven] and [hell]
Prophecy of the End Time
Daniel 12:1-2 “At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Isaiah 66:22-24 “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.
> Most people today would be surprised to learn that Jesus believed in a bodily eternal life here on earth, instead of eternal bliss for souls, but even more that he did not believe in hell as a place of eternal torment… But when Jesus summarizes his point, he explains that the contrasting fates are “eternal life” and “eternal punishment.” They are not “eternal pleasure” and “eternal pain.” The opposite of life is death, not torture. So the punishment is annihilation. But why does it involve “eternal fire”? Because the fire never goes out. The flames, not the torments, go on forever. And why is the punishment called “eternal”? Because it will never end. These people will be annihilated forever. That is not pleasant to think about, but it will not hurt once it’s finished.
That last paragraph referenced from the article…wow. Especially the last two sentences. Talk about a water is not wet argument…
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CU Medallion [58428]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 4:42 PM
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An article by one who clearly does not have a fundamental Christian belief system.
Not sure if serious. Do I need to have my meter calibrated?
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Legend [17918]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 5:16 PM
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and?
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CU Medallion [58428]
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Oh no, you don't have to convince me. First, I've read a couple of his books
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Mar 24, 2024, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell ] |
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and watched at least a million of his videos, so I'm very familiar with him and aware of his views. But, even after reading the article in the post above, I thought it was obvious just from that that he wasn't a fundamentalist Christian, even though like me, he was one at one time.
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Legend [17918]
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Re: Oh no, you don't have to convince me. First, I've read a couple of his books
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Mar 25, 2024, 7:31 AM
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I understand. I just like to identify for those that might not be familiar with him or his teaching.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell
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Mar 24, 2024, 6:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: What Jesus really said about heaven and hell ] |
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You make some good points HuntClub®. Those verses seem to indicate that Jesus and the Jews believed in some type of resurrection and punishment for someone.
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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How many OT verses does it take for you to believe the ancient Hebrews...
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Mar 25, 2024, 8:37 AM
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believed in life after death. I can probably come up with a couple dozen from Psalms alone. If we're speaking specifically about life after death a commonly known Psalm is part of almost every Christian's daily walk.
Psa 23: "... surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever."
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Legend [17918]
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Re: How many OT verses does it take for you to believe the ancient Hebrews...
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Mar 25, 2024, 9:22 AM
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Meant to include that one as well.
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Oculus Spirit [93676]
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Anyone who claims Hebrews didn't believe in life after death have...
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Mar 25, 2024, 2:34 PM
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never read the Hebrew's most famous work, the Bible.
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