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Basketball Corruption? What about football?
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Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:05 AM

I can't believe how many players and schools have been involved in this case. Can you imagine how many players, schools, etc. this could reach in football?

I bet its something a lot of fans don't want to think about that. It could be huge if this were to reach football.

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:14 AM

The big difference with that is that the vast majority of these players were one and done types that are going to be gone in a year, you don't have that in football. Each player will be there for at least 3 years, little bit harder to get a return as an agent when you've gotta wait that long.

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Of course it could, 7 on 7s and HS handlers...


Feb 23, 2018, 10:21 AM

Clemson parted ways with Isaac McDonald because of his handler, Jon Drummond. Who knows how many others Dabo has ushered to the door because of this non-scholastic involvement? Or other...


https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2012/6/6/3067831/clemson-drops-isaac-mcdonald-south-florida-athlete-back-on-the-market


If you don't know Jon Drummond, he was fired for this shadiness and went on record as part of ESPN's Outside the Lines.




http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=6600377

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/sports/ncaafootball/06camps.html

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:22 AM

I have no knowledge of this. Every word I say is mere speculation.

Having said that, I'm not sure it will have the effect on football we're concerned it might...only because football is so much more of a team-oriented sport, whereas basketball is MUCH more individualistic. Not that you don't have your superstars in football, of course, but let me explain. The effect a superstar's talent has on the W-L record is FAR more evident on a 5-player basketball team than it is on a 22-player football team. There are just so many more moving parts in football that affect the outward results. One superstar on a football team can certainly affect the course of a game in that team's favor. But one superstar in basketball can have a PROFOUND affect on an entire SEASON. There are plenty of examples of this throughout college basketball history.

So because of this difference between a superstar's direct effect on the end result, I wouldn't think the interest in going after football players and recruits would be nearly as high as what we're seeing in basketball.

Make sense?

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:26 AM

It seems inevitable if the FBI is involved.

The money in football is probably even worse when you consider football is the driving generator of revenue for most schools.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:29 AM

I agree with this.

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 9:16 PM [ in reply to Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football? ]

Coot.

Go Tigers!!!

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:32 AM

Also, if you think about this. A lot of the teams in this report are some of the bigger names in football. If this or any firms are working with basketball players at these schools, what makes you think they're not talking to some football players?

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:34 AM

Because football players are there for 3 years, not 8 months.

Plus contracts are better in the NBA than they are in the NFL, and there is a smaller pool of players to choose from.


Message was edited by: tiggerz04®


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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:39 AM

I hope you're right, but the agent doesn't have to be involved for 3 years. To impact recruiting they certainly would, but I could see a lot of money passing from the agents during the junior and senior years.

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:42 AM

That's true, but would be different from the basketball situation as the agents are paying players prior to them enrolling.

The situation you bring up would be on the players, unless coaches were introducing players to agents.

With football the bigger issue would be rogue boosters, but it's harder to get a paper trail on those instead of an agency with records.

Not saying you're wrong, it's just a different type of situation.

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How long was JB at Clemson?***


Feb 23, 2018, 10:43 AM [ in reply to Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football? ]



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A good while, 5 years I believe.


Feb 23, 2018, 10:46 AM

I'm speaking more to the one and done types of players that are getting the big money, i.e. Bowen, Smith, Whitehead, Fultz, etc. that all received $10,000 plus and were in school for a short time.

Looking over the Tigernet article it seems the agent was getting reimbursed for meals and a plane ticket with JB, which wouldn't be that big of a deal compared to the others.

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Yes, I know you were and the reason I asked. It's about...


Feb 23, 2018, 11:05 AM

sports graft and corruption, agents are absolutely in play, upfront & throughout the process. These HS handlers, non-scholastic coaches as the NCAA calls them are agents, that's just the beginning.

UNC's football program was slammed because of an agent, that's recent news, an agent that affected a number of programs. Butch Davis eventually shown the door and the new coach saddled with his mess.

IMG is a Sport's Marketing Firm, World Wide and they give scholarships like candy for their HS Football team.

Limiting the pond to one and dones, I get the short term payout, but small investments of benes, dinners & gifts aren't much when you realize the windfall at the other end.

AAU has been targeted for sometime; 7 on 7s are the next in line. The NCAA already moved to eliminate paying HS coaches for help at Camps. Dabo and Clemson are affected by it.

I hope the NCAA legislation takes hold to eliminate the satellite camps and some of the mechanisms that open CFB up for shadiness, but that's wishful I imagine.

Not as big a deal as others? Yes, he likely wasn't as valued as the others, it's ROI and the very reason it happens in football. 3 years in nothing.



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I certainly agree with you that more regulations need


Feb 23, 2018, 11:21 AM

to be made of the AAU, shoe company circuits, 7 on 7's, etc. Especially when you have an 18 year old kid that has a "handler," that should just immediately throw up a red flag to the NCAA.

We do not have any viable evidence to go on with football, other than a rogue booster here and there that have been caught, but in basketball we now have a plethora of it for both agencies and shoe companies.

I'm not 100% on how agent fees work, but they spent $1,100 on Jaron and he is now earning $26,000 in the G-League. Depending on how much they get that is a pretty good ROI so long as their fees are greater than 5%.

The bigger difference in basketball and football is the risk of the investment due to the time. The chances of major injury in football is much greater than in basketball, so over a 3 year (minimum) time frame you could lose your whole investment due to injury or a player not panning out and making an NFL roster. Of course agents would be on top prospects after their sophomore years though, I just don't think they would care much for a kid in high school.

Whereas in basketball the one and done type players would not even be in college if not for that rule, so it's as close to a sure thing as you could get. Going back to the Dennis Smith Jr. scenario, he got $73,500 prior to enrolling and is now making $2.7M this year. Per a Forbes.com article NBA agent fees are capped at 4%, so assuming Smith's agents made the 4% that would be $108,000 for this year, which pays them back plus profit and that doesn't include profits from next year when his contract goes up to roughly $3.1M.

My main point is the money is obviously better for basketball agents and to get the top dollar you want to get in early on the one and dones as it is a much higher ROI for the agents with much less risk than a high school football player that has 3 years with higher risk.

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Re: I certainly agree with you that more regulations need


Feb 23, 2018, 11:46 AM

Just North Carolina in the last year plus.


http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/22134874/north-carolina-authorities-reviewing-nfl-agent-contact-unc-player

http://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/19180813/ex-nfl-agent-pleads-guilty-multi-year-north-carolina-tar-heels-sports-agent-probe


It's been going on a long time and the money is far greater today.

http://www.espn.com/espn/commentary/news/story?id=5710346

At one point JB was a 1st Team ACCer and viewed as a Top 30ish NBA pick. I doubt many target semi-pro or lower tier league athletes, they target guys with contract potential. Agents get ~5% plus[weighted for all], not just playing contract, but higher % of endorsements and others depending as it's negotiable, plus are the go to for lawyers and others the client will rely on throughout the process. Those additional relationships vary by need.

You can limit one and dones to basketball since they don't exist in football, it's against the NFL rules as you have to be 3 years removed from HS to be drafted save very special circumstance.

Big money brings sharks, the waters are treacherous, but suggesting it's not an issue or can't affect football when it already has is lacking.

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Re: I certainly agree with you that more regulations need


Feb 23, 2018, 11:55 AM

I believe my main point was worded poorly, of course the agents will try to get a leg up with football players nearing draft eligibility, I should have stated that in my opinion the bigger corruption would be with the college basketball prospects.

The major reason for that would be with endorsements, as you mentioned, in basketball would be a bigger draw due to shoe contracts, apparel, etc. Sure NFL players endorse companies, such as Rodgers with State Farm, OBJ with Head and Shoulders, Brees with Nyquil/Dayquil, but in the NBA each superstar has their own shoe line and clothing line, etc.

In short, I of course agree with you that it happens in football, but I believe, as evidenced by the reports coming out, that it happens with much more regularity and for more money in basketball.

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The question from the OP was corruption in football?


Feb 23, 2018, 12:03 PM

HISTORY has already answered this concerning agents and will continue to do so.

Nothing's poorly worded, your verve and intent is what seems at issue, whether HS and College Football has/is corrupted by this sort of agent involvement already answered, and people going to jail for it.

They have been even before Tank Black, the FED loved them some TB, a good South Carolina native.




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I am able to read the main question, and also the following


Feb 23, 2018, 12:17 PM

post that stated how far this could reach in football.

To which I responded with what I did. It is easier for corruption to spread in basketball, and also easier to get caught for it. We have a major breakthrough with bribery/corruption in college basketball, but have we ever had a case that targeted upwards of 20 schools and numerous players through one agency?

As I've also stated, of course there is corruption in football as well, it is after all "all about the money."

But, my point, which you seem to misunderstand, is the level of corruption in college basketball is greater than that in college football currently, especially with the one and done players.

Quite frankly, you have to look no further than the articles stating this scandal will "change the landscape of college basketball" to understand that.

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His question is if this sort of corruption could reach cfb?


Feb 23, 2018, 12:20 PM

It does or it doesn't, so it does.

Pretty simple yes and no, not a matter of degree.




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Then based on your answer his question is a dumb one as it


Feb 23, 2018, 12:23 PM

already has, and has been for a while.

Therefore, I answered that corruption in football and basketball would be different, due to structure, timing, etc. to drive conversation as this is a message board.

If we didn't want to have conversations then the answer to his original question would be "There is already corruption in football," and the thread is over.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that we must answer only the OP directly and not give an answer that is in the same subject as the OP but gives a different point of view, or why you seem to care so much.

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He may not be aware? I gave him several stories and how


Feb 23, 2018, 12:29 PM

one specifically impacted Clemson.

I try to help, I'm a shepherd, but it's hard Ringo, it's real #### hard some times.

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Well if he is not aware then he must live under a rock,


Feb 23, 2018, 12:43 PM

or if he was referring to this FBI probe transitioning to football I would think we would have heard about it by now.

You do help, however, sometimes in a round about way.

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Maybe he does, it certainly doesn't prevent me from helping.


Feb 23, 2018, 1:00 PM

That's on each of us as individuals and contributing members of society.

Did you really just suggest that he might be? Tank Black went to Federal prison. Why does the FBI have to be the only agency involved in corruption[They are in football if it crosses state lines or FED scope, a must have], there are other agencies that handle corruption as well as clearly is pointed out in North Carolina as it was state law they threw at him.

It seems more hyperbole or degree and moving target ---- that's being kind.




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For ##### sake man, he directly mentioned


Feb 23, 2018, 1:15 PM

this case, which was investigated by the FBI. Hence my comment that if the FBI investigated football in relation to this case we probably would have heard about it by now.

What did Tank Black go to Federal prison for again? Oh, money laundering in relation to cocaine deals in Detroit, not the illegal money he provided to players already in school.

The North Carolina agent was initially investigated because he was not a registered agent with the state, not initially due to corruption of payments.

Honestly I'm not quite sure what you're trying to argue at this point.

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Corruption comes in many forms, payments made by agents...


Feb 23, 2018, 1:18 PM

no matter what initially happened or the charges finally levied.

Corruption exists and your idiotic statement stands.

The only person muddying anything is you, because you made a stupid statement.

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Yes, corruption does, and I've discussed the different forms


Feb 23, 2018, 1:20 PM

in my posts in this thread. However, the OP was discussing the corruption from the FBI case that has recently came to light, which was the basis for my dialogue regarding how corruption would be more prevalent in college basketball due to the one and done environment.

Corruption exists (I've agreed on that, so again, not sure your point), and I'm not sure what statement you're referring to? The one that college basketball is more corrupt? How many "landscape changing" corruption cases have effected college football?

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Again, degree. It is only a matter of degree to you.


Feb 23, 2018, 1:33 PM

I don't care, never did, continue to point it out and the only reason it continues to matter to you is because you made a stupid statement?

I wished you a good day and a better weekend, that always stands.



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On the contrary you seem to have the hangup of degree,


Feb 23, 2018, 2:06 PM

I was just discussing it as there can be more corruption in one thing or another. The only reason it matters now is that is what I was discussing, yet you took it upon yourself to determine that was of not matter.

I'm also still unsure of the "stupid statement," but as I have work to do I'll forget it.

It's just general conversation, always a good day to you as well, sir.

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The most apt, intellectually or integrity based offering...


Feb 23, 2018, 2:14 PM

from you, I DON'T FUGGIN CARE WHAT HE ASKED.

That's been obvious since you started trying to soft sell JB's involvement in the probe and all the ridiculousness that has followed because you seated a ridiculous statement.

You even have gone as far as suggesting the OP might live under a rock. Really?

Pathetic.

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I'm not soft selling anything, he shouldn't have did it.


Feb 23, 2018, 2:18 PM

However, $1,100 is a far cry from $73,500 (before the player enrolled even though that doesn't matter), I'm going to assume you would agree with that.

Yes, I went as far as using a common idiom in reference to the OP. Oh, the horror.

What's pathetic about that?

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Besides everything? And it continues, a far cry...


Feb 23, 2018, 2:28 PM

LOL.

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An ambiguous response, surprising.***


Feb 23, 2018, 2:31 PM



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Didn't want to edit my post to add something,


Feb 23, 2018, 2:33 PM

but I was told to "bore someone else/start a new post," but it seems you've only responded to me for most of the day.

I've at least posted in other threads, not that it really matters, just interesting.

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Yes, I have no issue pointing out how ridiculous you are...


Feb 23, 2018, 2:39 PM

especially when you start doubling down on the stupid.

This isn't your first ridiculous tangent, fingers crossed it's your last.



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Yet, you still haven't.


Feb 23, 2018, 3:02 PM

The ironic part of this is your tangent has not been on point either. You've spoken about the past, not what the OP asked.

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The past's the best indicator of the present in these cases.


Feb 23, 2018, 3:24 PM

Clearly, corruption exists, you agreed and those in the know, those concerned have written about the fear as it continues to grow in pointing to 7 on 7s et al. as they relate to HS football's version of AAU, NIKE Camps, NOT college football camps specifically, but the handlers that are not chauffering numerous players for pay. No, NIKE camps and their involvement have not always existed.

Agents and their illegal involvement pretty much have. Under Armour, Nike, Adidas or others all vying for CFB, huge money and beyond.

The question was could.

Clearly the only tangent is you being an idiot, still and talking some ridiculous crap about degree.

If you don't care what the originator asked, that's fine, but don't bother me with your continued stupidity?

That's the only decent thing you might do at this point.

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Re: The past's the best indicator of the present in these cases.


Feb 23, 2018, 9:18 PM

Does that red and white furry suit get hot in this warmer weather we are having? Makes me cringe when I see it.

Go Tigers!!!

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Haha, what's up cp and no, I never mothball that suit...


Feb 23, 2018, 10:16 PM

she asked nicely.

NOT SAFE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auq9e3lBq6I



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a far cry...


Feb 23, 2018, 2:42 PM [ in reply to An ambiguous response, surprising.*** ]

Is your quote in response to me pointing out softening.

Everything in what you've offered THAT YOU DON'T FUGGIN CARE what was asked.

Sorry, I'll use crayon or type slower, but nothing ambiguous about it unless you just can't keep up.

Oh wait, you can't.




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I asked a question, to which you responded


Feb 23, 2018, 3:07 PM

"everything." That's ambiguous, guy.

All you do is go in circles and change subjects in debates, it's a good strategy.

But in saying that my post was off target implies that any of yours were, which they were not. Shown by the fact the OP was mentioning the FBI investigation spreading to football.

Your response when I mentioned that was, "it could," however, it's not smart to tip your hand from the FBI's perspective that an investigation could be coming. Not to mention, Nike, UA, Adidas aren't going to give shoe deals to NFL athletes, so while they may have some input, they aren't giving $100k to a player like they did with Bowen.

So keep bringing up past items, while we have current evidence of more corruption in college basketball.

You can continue to run in circles, I'll move on.

I hope the rest of your day gets better.

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The only subject was cfb and couldd this corruption touch it


Feb 23, 2018, 3:15 PM

you said 8 months and more money in basketball.

That's stupid since we know it already exists and even exists in college basketball. JB wasn't at Clemson for 8 months.

The answer is yes and the reasons why have been given.

You started talking down the degree, no one else.

If you find an answer to What's pathetic = everything I've continued to point out in just how ridiculous you are and the fact you clearly don't care, WHAT'S BEEN FUGGIN ASKED by the person that initiated the conversation, then you are too stupid for words.

Nothing ambiguous about it, in fact, a far cry from it.

Wax on.

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You need to work on your reading comprehension,


Feb 23, 2018, 3:17 PM

moron.

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No, I need to reavaluate anything you've ever offered.


Feb 23, 2018, 3:25 PM

You're patently stupid.

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Re: Well if he is not aware then he must live under a rock,


Feb 23, 2018, 3:36 PM [ in reply to Well if he is not aware then he must live under a rock, ]

We have a winner. Will the FBI look at football too?

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Re: Well if he is not aware then he must live under a rock,


Feb 23, 2018, 3:46 PM

Tell that to deadsolidperfect®.

I think there is potential, but I would say rouge boosters are the bigger issue in college football with regards to getting kids to come to your school and that would be harder to track than the shoe companies/agents.

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That's a far more intelligent answer than this...


Feb 23, 2018, 3:55 PM

OP, what makes you think they're not talking to some football players?

04, Because football players are there for 3 years, not 8 months.

Plus contracts are better in the NBA than they are in the NFL, and there is a smaller pool of players to choose from.


The answer to could is yes and we have plenty of smoke to support it. See the articles and their concerns.

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You seem to have missed the first post (above your first


Feb 23, 2018, 3:57 PM

post in this thread).

I shortened it for the second response. Sorry it confuzzled you.

Remember, the initial release of the FBI probe was in relation to kids going to certain school for pay, so that piece of the corruption puzzle is clearly in place as well.

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No, I didn't, I'm not going to chase all of your stupidity.


Feb 23, 2018, 4:08 PM

Where this goes, who was touched, football players play HS basketball, coaches involved in athletic programs, agents having clients across numerous sports and involvement in 7 on 7s, Nike and non-scholastic sponsors are all made easy inroads, just as the case with AAU...

They need warrants and summons in cases et al and good reason to ask for them so it starts somewhere. It happened to start there, but it expands.

Where it leads with all the money[HUGE in football, more than NBA in total], companies & agents involved across a pantheon of sports is the fear and why the answer, based on what we do know, is simply yes.

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Re: No, I didn't, I'm not going to chase all of your stupidity.


Feb 23, 2018, 4:17 PM

What is your basis for the "HUGE" money in football as compared to the NBA?

You seem to have also missed the part about the first release of the FBI probe, you know, shoe companies paying players on their circuit and paying them to go to schools sponsored by them.

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Quick answer.


Feb 23, 2018, 4:30 PM



I don't miss anything, I just refuse to go down another of your idiotic, ridiculously myopic/minutiae laced tangents because you seem to make hard statements, then have to reel it in when tasked?

None of that has anything to do with corruption existing, we know it does and/or could the FBI's involvement extend beyond the current basketball driven charges into the college football world.

Yes, absolutely. Information already out there pointing to it.

And No, your answer, because 8 months and ~less money is a ridiculous, uninformed, therefore misleading answer. Silly really.

Everything else after I pointed out JB's time at Clemson[it didn't fit your ridiculously rigid statement] has been you talking about something else.

Good luck.




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But that's not the full story is it?


Feb 23, 2018, 4:37 PM

NBA players make a higher salary, and have a better potential to get shoe and apparel deals (which agents make money off of as well).

Plus the prospects of a longer career, etc. leads to more money for agents in basketball. Which would mean more agents would pay money to one and done players to get in early for a bigger return, that along with the shoe companies already cited in the FBI probe goes back to my original point.

On top of that, most basketball players will have a chance to play overseas as well and agents will have the ability to make money on that if the NBA doesn't pan out.

Nice try to take one little sentence and expound upon it, but I like the "ridiculously rigid statement," especially when you're the one being so rigid about it.

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Now you're going to bring overseas into this, so clearly...


Feb 23, 2018, 5:02 PM

and again, you can't even defend a statement without taking it somewhere else?

It's a problem, yours.

Whether they make more individually does not mean it doesn't exist in CFB[all things considered], the money is still HUGE, a larger pool in fact in the NFL and clearly not a reason to offer NO as your answer along with the silly 8 months.

More ridiculousness on your part and it continues.

You made a stupid statement, and instead of just owning it, you continued to double down on ridiculous tangent after ridiculous tangent, moving ever further away from the intent and purposes of the original issue.

YOU DON'T FUGGIN CARE WHAT HE ASKED, no ####, I know, pointed it out and all you've done is prove over and over again me correct in the doing.

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Stay on topic, you keep bringing up other things than


Feb 23, 2018, 5:14 PM

what is being talked about.

Once again, I never said it didn't exist in CFB [I'm not sure why you continue to bring that up, unless you have trouble with reading]. A larger pool of players in the NFL, but more money to be made by agents in the NBA/with overseas leagues [which plays a factor into this so you cannot set it aside as you tried to].

You couldn't understand my statement, so you resorted to being a fugging jack ### all day long, and continue to say the same thing over and over again like a broken record.

I don't care what was asked because you have changed the rhetoric over and over so it doesn't matter what he asked anymore, make sense? You suggest that I changed the topic however you didn't reference the actual FBI probe at all, you're hung up on the "AAU" thing [when in reality it's the shoe company circuits now] and specifics to agents, although agents don't play a huge role in pay-for-play in CFB.

You're argument style is akin to that of Walt Deptula's, and that's not a complement.

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One more time...


Feb 23, 2018, 5:39 PM

OP: Also, if you think about this. A lot of the teams in this report are some of the bigger names in football. If this or any firms are working with basketball players at these schools, what makes you think they're not talking to some football players?

Important as it is THE question after he set the table...what makes you think they are NOT talking to some football players?


The ANSWER, yours. They are NOT[from his question] talking to football players, BECAUSE football players are there for 3 years, not 8 months.

Plus contracts are better in the NBA than they are in the NFL, and there is a smaller pool of players to choose from.


Sorry that is absurd.

Maybe you should learn to read and comprehend? JB was my attempt to talk you down in a helpful way, maybe, hopefully you took that offering as a chance to reconsider, not only because JB got caught up in the probe[no matter the degree], it shows how far reaching it became and to the Nth degree & beyond the original focus. There are other issues already in the books concerning college football, articles and other provided throughout, so all inclusive.

He clearly asks about the inner mingling, a very good setting for the possibility to exist and the reason people are concerned, the why and could is a definitive, yes. Not a no, as your response suggests.

This entire discussion was a yes, no about the possibility, the could and you tried to make it about degree after your initial NO answer, why that's the case, maybe you can figure out? Me pointing it out over and over again as you move further away is on you.

Have a good night, quick check on the baseball score - thanks for that score post.



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Re: One more time...


Feb 23, 2018, 5:44 PM

Oh, so, I DIDN'T say that? Thanks for clearing it up.

There's no need to "talk me down," you're the moron who apparently has no comprehension. But you keep taking what you think you know and run with it.

The main aspect of the probe is pay-for-play, it isn't specific to agent dealings [although you're entirety of posts today have made it seem as such].

No problem, I'm excited about the team this year. I think if we have a solid bullpen that can help the young starters throughout the year, our line up is pretty dirty and should score some runs, as they are today.

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Yes, you did, you answered his question and


Feb 23, 2018, 5:47 PM

were wrong in doing so.

You can't read or understand what you type?

That's not the least surprising.




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Except you're the one adding "not" to that statement, aside


Feb 23, 2018, 6:02 PM

from that I'm speaking about high schoolers in that, as can be easily understood based on the time that players would be playing [one and dones vs all CFB players].

I'm surprised a person with your high intelligence is struggling to grasp that, as it isn't hard to do.

You continued to point to agents who have been caught, with the common denominator of the players already being in college. That brings a different aspect to it all together, as it would not involve bribing players to go to certain schools, but of course is still illegal. No one is denying that [and no, I haven't denied that today].

However, please do show the last major investigation where 20+ schools and many more players were named in an investigation, I'll wait. Make sure to include the apparel companies paying players to go to schools [see Bowen-Adidas-Louisville]. What you find is more prevalent in football are the rogue boosters and handlers [as you've mentioned] in getting a recruit to a certain school. After that agents pick up a couple years later when players are much more of a sure thing.

It's really not hard to follow, so I'm surprised you've struggled so much.

I'll be logging off now, but I'm sure your next post will follow with telling me what I answered, and this agent went to jail for money laundering but he did illegally pay players too, but I said it didn't happen and doesn't happen, and then after that I didn't answer your post [use a word you looked up in a thesaurus], etc.

Let's not forget I'm the only one who cares about degrees of something, except the legal system is the one with that in place [strange that if it doesn't matter we have that], but I'm sure you'll mention that again in your next post.

Oh, and I can't forget that I'm stupid, dumb, rigid, and I like to jack off.

Have a good one.

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Not adding not, other than to point out you answered


Feb 23, 2018, 6:15 PM

his question as to why not, with a rigid, ridiculous statement and in the negative.

I'm not adding other that to show what a complete dolt you are by simplifying it once again for you. It won't become a habit.

The probes initial focus isn't important, the conversation began and has always been about the possibility of it leading or involving football. Clearly, and as you later conceded, it can, so the could is a YES.

We know corruption exists in football, that's not a question, so knowing how these agents that work with these endorsers et al as a matter of course and deal with numerous sports and how closely tied college sports are, then could it involve football as well? Of course it could.

Yes.

You answered, in the negative and gave the reasons for it not being a possibility.

The OP then refined his question, Will the FBI look at football too?, same question, only simpler and made easier for the daft such as you and you answered, yes or there is potential.

Congratulations, you're a idiot. No doubt about it. You get caught up in "arguing/whatever your word" about JB's involvement only being $1,100 as opposed to another number, that you continually lose sight or run off in other directions away from the question and intent.

You don't fugging care[your statement] about his initial question, but he changes it[the wording] and all of a sudden you change and your answer with it - it seems to be you in a nut shell when trying to have a rather simple, pointed conversation. Your doing, taking it elsewhere and away from the target, and no one else.

Dear lord, have a good night.




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Re: Not adding not, other than to point out you answered


Feb 23, 2018, 10:39 PM

At least use correct english, it’s you’re an idiot, you idiot.

Still didn’t respond to any points I made, and did exactly what I said you would do. So, in short, #### off. Moron.

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Oh no, I dropped an n? Another tangent and more of your


Feb 23, 2018, 10:44 PM

stupidity.

Classic idiot, well struck.

If you actually went to college, go slap them, then get back your money. They stole it from you.

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Re: Oh no, I dropped an n? Another tangent and more of your


Feb 23, 2018, 10:52 PM

I’m just doing the same thing you have, considering you went on some tangent about college.

Hypocrite.

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No, the tangent would have been pointing out how


Feb 23, 2018, 10:59 PM

idiotic it was for you to correct someone's dropped n and then not capitalize English.

I told you, I'm not chasing your stupidity, your idiotic points outside of the issue and calling you a ####### moron for your ridiculous efforts and thus your lack of education in continuing your incessant stupidity. It's the theme, you idiot, for continuing the attempts.

You're the wasted oxygen, resources, time et al. in meetings and discussions that the facilitator has to constantly remind, bring it back in.

Congratulations.

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Re: No, the tangent would have been pointing out how


Feb 23, 2018, 11:23 PM

So you didn’t go on a tangent by going on a tangent? Congrats mother ######.

Also, you see the reports that the Arizona coach was sure tapped discussing offering a recruit money? Now was that an agent doing that to a player on campus? No, no that wouldn’t be a recruit.

You’re the moron that goes around in circles, changes the topic, picks specific ######## and takes it out of context, and ultimately goes home alone.

But, “I’m wrong, tangents, idiot, etc.”

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Again with your stupidity, clearly JB was paid by an agent.


Feb 23, 2018, 11:32 PM

That, you idiot, is just some of the reason, along with others named and everything else, that people are asking if this could involve, no matter to what degree, college football. Yes and it isn't difficult to fathom based on all we know.

YOU built a stupid little box and when someone pointed out JB et al. didn't fit in your stupid little box, you tried to explain you were only talking about one and dones. You counting on mind readers to fix your idiocy? I tried, but you pushed it away.

Why? Because you're a ####### moron and then continued down a number of idiotic tangents, it seems in an attempt to distance your stupidity.

I hate stupid people and you topped the list this day.




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Re: Again with your stupidity, clearly JB was paid by an agent.


Feb 23, 2018, 11:37 PM

Was JB paid or did he have meals and a plane ticket paid for? Per the article on the front page it would be the latter, ########.

But keep going on your tangents about how you’re right and we all must have a box but you don’t have to have one because you’re the smartest person in a room when you’re alone.

I can call you a ####### idiot all I want as well, ####### idiot. You should ask the mods to change your name to deadsolidworthless, it would be more fitting for you.

Is it hard hating yourself?

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And here you go again, the man received PAYMENT, illegal


Feb 23, 2018, 11:42 PM

benefits from AMS, aimed at his signature.

They put the PAYMENT in ####### dollars, you ####### idiot. They determine amount, whether it's bitcoin, Jacksons, shoes, watches or other, it's given an amount to identify the extent of the PAYMENT.

Once again, you're a waste of good oxygen and only attempt to mire people in stupid tangents, when the only issue is and has been, could this reach cfb.

Clearly, you finally gave the OP a yes, after all your idiocy to the negative.

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Re: And here you go again, the man received PAYMENT, illegal


Feb 23, 2018, 11:47 PM

You’ve made this go well beyond the OP’s original post, not me.

And no, there is a difference in being paid, and having something paid for. Your job pays you, but may also take you out to lunch and pay for your food. You only report on your taxes for the former. I would assume such an established person as yourself could understand the difference.

Why are you so hung up on the JB thing anyways? I see you ignored my post on the Arizona coach, as you’ve ignored the pay for play items all ####### day. Then again, that doesn’t fit in your box that you’ve defined and doesn’t fit your narrative of the day.

I’m sure I’m not taking any of your precious oxygen up there in your ivory tower, you giganticcunt.

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No, you did.


Feb 24, 2018, 12:00 AM

You even said you did not fuggin care what he asked in trying to explain away your stupidity and ridiculous offshoots.

It's not surprising you can't remotely keep up with all of your incessant blithering, tangents and ridiculous attempts at explaining away just how idiotic that original comment was in creating that tiny, ridiculous box.

You have gone off, suggesting different views et al. and I've told you have at it, but don't waste my time, but you continue to do so.

Go walk-about anywhere you like, have at it, but you're a ####### moron for your continued attempts to distance your stupidity.

YOU DON'T FUGGIN CARE WHAT WAS ASKED, you ####### idiot.

No sh!t.

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Re: No, you did.


Feb 24, 2018, 12:07 AM

Still haven’t addressed the pay for play of CBB recruits, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

But I’m the one who goes on tangents. You made this thread about you, hence who cares what OP said.

So continue to call me an idiot [I honestly don’t give a #### what you think], but you’re dodging all points that don’t agree with your box of agents.

Also, payment and paid for are still different, and you’re still an ###.

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No reason to you ####### moron, it's not important because


Feb 24, 2018, 12:20 AM

clearly the initial intent and pinpoint of the scope increased, then caught agents as well.

The net got larger, duh and the reason agents, JB and others were caught in its web, then forcing Clemson & CBB to distance themselves.

That is just part of the why people are asking its possible reach and one of the whys the answer to the question "could it reach cfb" being simply, yes.

Now, not only are you a blithering idiot, you're a liar as well as you've clearly cared from your responses and in continuing your ridiculous tangents and attempts to deflect from the issue and from your inability to stay on point.

Here you still are, now bereft of integrity.

Goodnight and good luck, you're apparently too stupid to make it on your own.





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Re: No reason to you ####### moron, it's not important because


Feb 24, 2018, 12:33 AM

That’s gold, I’m bereft of integrity because you’re an ###. Still haven’t responded to the pay for play, the main point of my initial response. But continue to try and berate me for no apparent reason.

But we get it, you’re right, as always, a right #######. You literally turned a message board thread into something akin to a congressional hearing.

Have a good night, and go #### yourself ###.

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Yes, it could, do we know for sure? No, but there's plenty


Feb 23, 2018, 3:49 PM [ in reply to Re: Well if he is not aware then he must live under a rock, ]

been written about cfb, the antics and money, the 7 on 7 article is a good one, along with the others.

Give them a read, it might help understand the scope of what is going on and how pervasive, similar to AAU basketball, it has become.

Agents have been involved in college football since, well, read the article.

;)

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Re: I certainly agree with you that more regulations need


Feb 23, 2018, 3:04 PM [ in reply to Re: I certainly agree with you that more regulations need ]

Thanks- loved the Trope story.

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YW, some good stuff out there.***


Feb 23, 2018, 4:11 PM



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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:48 AM [ in reply to Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football? ]

So duration is why they don't talk to football players? Basketball players only talk to these agencies because they're there for one year? What about the star football players that are junior/senior going into their last year, you don't think they get a call every now and again?

They don't have to deal with a firm for 3 years for it to be considered illegal. It could be their last year, before their last game. It could be anytime while they're enrolled in school.

Football players know they won't get NBA money, however, players will still get paid good money. That's why so many leave early for the NFL draft.

Coaches/schools have been known to pay for players to come to college, what makes you think firms down grease some pockets, so they can get the best players to represent?

This has happened before, what makes you think it's changed?

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 10:56 AM

The biggest issue here is the players that are paid prior to going to schools, by shoe companies or agencies pushing them to one.

Dennis Smith Jr. got a $73k loan PRIOR to enrolling at NC State, he was there for one year, drafted 9th and is making something like $2.7 million this season. Pretty easy to pay that loan back, plus interest.

For that to happen the agents would have had to reach out to, say Deshaun, before he enrolled at Clemson and then wait 3 years and hope for no injuries to get paid back.

Do agents reach out to juniors/seniors in football? Sure they do, I'm not denying that, but the major issue with the basketball side is the players being steered to one school or another by the agencies/shoe companies.

That's the other side of the coin, no shoe companies are going to care about football players because they don't have massive shoe contracts that basketball players will.

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The issue is illegal monies being paid. It doesn't matter


Feb 23, 2018, 11:52 AM

when it takes place, save to you?

What happened in college basketball is because of how college basketball works, but to suggest illegal payments through agents/other aren't going on in college football when it clearly does bottles the mind.


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Not sure what you're getting at here, as I'm discussing the


Feb 23, 2018, 12:09 PM

difference between corruption in basketball and football, not the fact that it happens or that it is illegal.

I've also not stated that it does not happen in college football, or if I did then I would have been typing fast between doing some work.

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You have questioned the investments, ROI et al.


Feb 23, 2018, 12:17 PM

I have no idea what your point is, the OP questioned corruption in football, the probe was clearly aimed at basketball and how these agents et al. targeted HS & college basketball based on how it works.

Obviously there's no one and dones in cfb, it requires a different wrench, but it is in their toolbox - see the above.

Yes, it exists, the ROI and wrench is for the agents to determine and of course is different for football because of the 3 years.

Agents/handlers up front in 7 on 7s, agents all along the process and plenty of real life to back it up.

Again, I have no idea what you're going on about?




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Re: You have questioned the investments, ROI et al.


Feb 23, 2018, 12:20 PM

The OP mentioned corruption in football, I took his post and discussed the difference between corruption in football and basketball.

I was unaware that we had to stay 100% on the topic as it was posted, instead of taking an initial post and branching off of that with a different point of view and opinion.

Again, of course it happens in football but it's much different than in basketball (the point I've been making all along).

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Listen, you replied to his specific question later in the


Feb 23, 2018, 12:28 PM

thread, this OP to this line of conversation. Here, this question:




This was your response, already edited once:





That is what I responded to and questioned.

What's to miss? The remainder is a matter of degree? Which has nothing to do with your initial response as to why it apparently couldn't happen in football?

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Listen, that was a different question than the "Is there


Feb 23, 2018, 12:42 PM

corruption in football."

My response, in which I edited to add the second sentence, was referring to the fact that the biggest allegations in this case were loans made to players before enrolling into the schools. Hence why that would be more rare in football due to the length and risk of players playing (we've been down this road already).

To that you responded with asking how long JB was at Clemson for, and our conversation ensued.

I also have yet to state it does not happen in football, so I'm curious as to why that is continually brought up.

I've restated my point several times, yet you seem to be hung up on this notion that I do not think it happens in football, or that I'm apparently not "staying on subject" with regards to the OP even though I'm discussing that both sports are corrupt but it's more major of a corruption in college basketball for various reasons, stemming from advertising revenue to "more of a sure thing" to the new contracts in the NBA, etc.

It's honestly not hard, is there corruption in both? Yes. Is there more in basketball? As of right now, yes based on the evidence that has been brought forth recently involving shoe companies and now a single agency that has listed and has records for 20+ schools.

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I asked the question about JB to show it's not about


Feb 23, 2018, 12:54 PM

8 months only and HOPEFULLY make you think. Clearly it goes beyond 8 months, it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

It's about corruption, clearly he asked about it in football, now you're arguing some ridiculous minutiae[no matter how big a degree it played in basketball] you didn't remotely point out in your response.

Agents pay up front in college football and have for some time, very much happening with NIKE camps involvements & the 7 on 7s tourney tour, plus 'handlers, which is right in line with AAU et al. as is discussed in the information I provided. Nike is a bad boy for providing a fertile environment for these non-scholarship coaches, no? Hang Phil Knight, the #######.

Have a good day.

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Again, you're taking statements and going completely


Feb 23, 2018, 1:04 PM

different ways with them as well as making assumptions about everything.

The only reason we are arguing is that you took my comment [which I've expressly stated was an opinion and different point of view on the corruption in both, yes, admitting corruption in both yet again] and decided for some reason that we must only stay on topic. Not only that, you also determined somehow through my posts that I stated there is no corruption in college football, which is untrue and laughable to even suggest.

Sure agents pay up front, but more agents are going to pay up front for juniors/seniors rather than while a player is in high school. The issue with that, is the agents that pay the players in high school and then direct them to a certain school, potentially through deals with coaches.

That situation would be a different level of corruption as that goes to coaches (remember Rick Pitino being fired?) instead of agents reaching out to players already in a school directly without coaches' knowledge.

Quite honestly you're being a little bit dramatic today, hope it gets better for you.

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WHO FUGGING CARES WHAT MORE DO?


Feb 23, 2018, 1:10 PM

He didn't ask if MORE corrupted one or the other, now did he.

The only reason you are continuing this is you made an idiotic, all-inclusive, broad brush statement which I questioned instead of calling you an idiot upfront - you were wrong to do so and you seem hell-bent on making up for it?

Are you really this daft or encumbered?

That's rhetorical.





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I DON'T FUGGIN CARE WHAT HE ASKED.


Feb 23, 2018, 1:17 PM

I've pointed that out several times that I responded, within the subject of the OP, but a different view of it. He didn't ask which one was more corrupt, but on the topic of corruption in football and basketball I made that statement. That's clearly not that hard to comprehend.

You seem to have missed that somewhere along the line. I tend to think of you as a good poster, but you're being a ####### jack ### today for some apparent reason.

Go ahead and call me an idiot, I can at least read and understand that a topic can have several different points attached to it.

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And you continue the idiocy, you take your other view...


Feb 23, 2018, 1:27 PM

and share it with someone else - someone who cares to discuss it? It had nothing to do with me pointing out your error.

It's ridiculous pap that has nothing to do with what I offered or the initial concept/idea of corruption in football, no degrees existed until you made a mistake; I can only fathom you continue because you see yourself as looking ridiculous and hope to salvage something by doing so?

Telling, and honestly I'd hoped this line of hyperbole & tangential bullsh!t, which mires most every Brownell post from his sheep, was peculiar to Clemson's basketball program, but it seems not the case.

Have a good day and better weekend.



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I thought we all put our views into our post, as this is a


Feb 23, 2018, 2:10 PM

message board and people do give opinions on topics.

Degrees will always exist, as that is another component to the crime [i.e. first, second, third degree, etc.], for example, degree of drug charges. If one person gets a fifth degree charge and another a first degree charge, are they both guilty? Yes. Are the penalties the same? No.

I see you also bring up the "Brownell sheep," which has what to do with this?

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No doubt you would not understand the inference.


Feb 23, 2018, 2:19 PM

Congratulations Captain Obvious, degrees exist? Who knew?

So why don't you fug up or mire a topic on whether corruption can be found in college football and the Hows, by saying, well, they might be only a little guilty or even not guilty because 8 months doesn't exist in college football and NBA has more money?

That's patently fugging stupid.

Go bore/mire someone else or start a new thread with your ridiculous crap, please?




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Because it is a ridiculous, unnecessary, and completely


Feb 23, 2018, 2:23 PM

bogus inference, but you're good at those.

Was the topic on whether corruption can be found in football, or whether the corruption in the FBI case surrounding basketball could spread to football?

To help you out, it's the latter, and was mentioned in the OP as well as a follow up post the OP made.

Degrees do exist, but as you stated they are not important, they're only important to me (even though you continue to point that out which makes it apparent you care as well).

I'm not trying to bore anyone, just responding to a post that was made to me. I'm nice that way, I do not want you to think I'm ignoring you.

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Yes, you are all of those things. Yes, with everything in


Feb 23, 2018, 2:35 PM

place, NIKE's involvement, SPARQ, 7 on 7 camps, the handlers, agents that have all been clearly identified in prior cases, written about, prosecuted, looked at, NCAA involvement preventing participation and hoping to reduce some of the risk, then YES, this corruption which already exists could touch college football and do so with FBI involvement.

Now, go back to jerking off how much or how little and NOT CARING what was being asked/discussed and the rest of your absurdity?

Ridiculous.

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Re: Yes, you are all of those things. Yes, with everything in


Feb 23, 2018, 3:01 PM

So you're saying it could spread, so the FBI shot their wad that they were investigating college athletics and gave football a heads up? That's not a smart tactic.

I don't care about camps, camps have been going on for forever and have hundreds of athletes, more than any one university could accept for football at a time. What more has Nike done that UA or Adidas hasn't?

You seem to be really getting worked up, maybe pull whatever is in your ### hole out of it and carry on with your day.

Stupid.

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Nope, but I do hate stupid people, especially those that


Feb 23, 2018, 3:07 PM

DON'T FUGGIN CARE WHAT WAS ASKED, run off on some ridiculous tangent fugging up a good conversation with their ridiculous tripe and continue to muck up a conversation with their idiocy.

That's you, all over.

It's now gone from you saying not in college football because 8 months and more money in the NBA, to this?

You're an idiot.

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You're a moron, but you're good at twisting words


Feb 23, 2018, 3:16 PM

and taking excerpts from posts to make it seem like one thing was said.

If you can't understand my post, then I'm sorry for you. But to be this upset over something so trivial makes me think you should seek some help.

What was asked had no basis on what our discussion turned in to, as you made it go further from the original point, both the OP's and mine. Then, when you get upset because someone doesn't agree with you, you start throwing little barbs like words on a message board will hurt people.

This could have been a good conversation, but instead you do what you do, use your thesaurus for fancy words and act like you're the smartest guy on the board and the only one with a correct opinion or view.

Also, I ask again, show me where I said it did not go on in college football? I did not. My basis was that the FBI were going after agencies, most of which were in talks with one and done basketball players. Why? Because of less risk in getting your money back due to length of time, injury risk, etc. That's a key factor in determining what is a good investment.

Again, no where did I say it doesn't go on in football, yet we've already seen the shoe companies come out with college basketball, because shoes are easy to sell and football players wear cleats. NBA players have their own shoes, which in turn makes the shoe companies money. More money than them paying a football player. That's pretty easy logic to follow.

I'm officially done with this thread, as you've took what I've posted and turned it into something completely different because you didn't agree with it or wanted to "help" or whatever.

Go fuckyourself.

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Nope, I'm pointed in staying on topic, certainly with this..


Feb 23, 2018, 3:35 PM

which you've now tried to make an issue. Ironic.

Maybe you should try it, you know, staying on topic?

Because clearly, YOU DON'T FUGGIN CARE what was asked, which has been the case since you spiraled out of control.

And you're still hoping to make hay?

I'm not sure which is most amazing, you continually galvanizing my issue of your incessant tangential bs by taking this further away from its destination or just how much of a simpleton you are in doing so?

Rock on.



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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 11:33 AM

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2014/4/10/5594348/college-football-bag-man-interview

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 11:34 AM

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/8/25/16199394/leo-lewis-ncaa-ole-miss-mississippi-state

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??????***


Feb 23, 2018, 12:21 PM



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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 2:20 PM

I think that what we need to be worried about is that once NCAA starts investigating a school for violations, they dig in and will go deeper than the original target a lot of times. To think that football doesn't have anything to hide would be naive on all of our parts.

For one, I'm not comfortable with this right now.

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Dabo showed Drummond the door, that goes back a few years...


Feb 23, 2018, 3:00 PM

so I doubt anything touches the coaches - seems reasonable to feel recruiting is easier now, so no funny stuff from them would be necessary? If they're not doing it then, no good reason now.

Does it mean as with JB in basketball, that the players that have been so involved with 7 on 7s, NIKE SPARQ and the camps which are clearly a concern[see articles] and HS football's version of the AAU circuit, have not been tainted in some way?

This conversation is had with the players and are continuously reminded during their time at Clemson.

It is not taken lightly by the University, nor should it be.

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Re: Dabo showed Drummond the door, that goes back a few years...


Feb 23, 2018, 3:08 PM

Do you believe that Clemson was able to build the program we did in football by not bending any rules? Your point about recruiting now might be true, but getting those elite kids away from other elite programs takes more than charm and a slide in your facility, IMHO. And I'm more concerned about how we got Spiller, Nuk, Watson, Cain, Williams, etc. BEFORE the National Championship appearances.

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Yes, they clearly turned away MacDonald and in no uncertain


Feb 23, 2018, 3:27 PM

terms.

That's 2012. Dabo took all of 12 players in his first year.

Why would I need to believe anything else when he clearly acted by dropping this kid and his handler, post haste?

Yours seems more hopeful, than anything else?

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Re: Yes, they clearly turned away MacDonald and in no uncertain


Feb 28, 2018, 1:40 PM

Not hopeful at all. I want the Dabo that we all think he is to actually be who he is. But I'm also not going to bury my head in the sand, either. How many people think Coach K would be connected to any of this basketball stuff that's going on? I'm just afraid that this is essentially "the cost of doing business".

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No, you're burying your head in the sand by ignoring what


Feb 28, 2018, 2:05 PM

actually happened in lieu of what might be?

We know he told McDonald and his handler to hit the bricks. There's nothing that exists to the contrary, save hopes or pipe dreams or assertions of "cost of doing business".

He's turned away recruits in the process for less, social media red flags or other, and even relies on his team to tell him if a young man fits the family on visits. If he gets a no, they end the recruitment.

Might a Clemson recruit/player be tainted one day as JBloss has been? Sure, but you've got plenty of evidence that Dabo is on the up and up, unless of course hope to the contrary lights your way.



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Re: No, you're burying your head in the sand by ignoring what


Mar 1, 2018, 12:14 PM

I hope your right, man.

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Re: No, you're burying your head in the sand by ignoring what


Mar 1, 2018, 12:33 PM

Of course you do...

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Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 2:58 PM

If they're doing BB now, everyone know football is next.

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"Stalwart universities—Harvard, Princeton, Yale—most certainly offer status. The Citadel offers character. "


Re: Basketball Corruption? What about football?


Feb 23, 2018, 9:22 PM

Could this thread have been shortened with a phone call, face-to-face or wrestling match? I think it could have easily been shortened. But that is just me.

Go Tigers!!!

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Very entertaining thread...


Feb 23, 2018, 9:36 PM

The mange combatants have shown great determination & endurance!

DILLY! DILLY!!!

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Oh it's definitely going on.. most likely rampant as well.


Feb 28, 2018, 1:52 PM

I think there's a difference in the violations though. In basketball there's a lot more money being funneled to players via agents, shoe companies, etc that want to profit on these kids once they get the NBA. That happens in basketball because a) it's much easier to identify who's going to get drafted highly in basketball, and b) the top players are only in school for 1 year. It seems like the coaches that get involved are mostly taking a cut and/or helping to direct the money.

In football the violations are often committed by the coaches and boosters of the schools.

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If it's bet on in las vegas


Mar 1, 2018, 12:21 PM

then there's corruption in it.

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