Replies: 70
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All-TigerNet [11016]
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Don’t worry about Brad Brownell...
Mar 27, 2019, 8:15 PM
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It will take care of itself next season when we s*ck out loud that he won’t be able to survive with a buyout less than a $ million...
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Orange Blooded [3367]
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Re: Don’t worry about Brad Brownell...
Mar 27, 2019, 8:20 PM
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Well if somehow they make the NIT next year and go 20-14 again he will get a raise. In today’s ACC it’s not hard to go 9-9 and I think we would be able to win 8-10 OC games . What if this happens?
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All-In [43544]
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Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year
Mar 27, 2019, 8:26 PM
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which would make three 20 win seasons in a row would seem ridiculous, especially at a school with our basketball tradition.
That would give us just 16 seasons with 20 wins in our history, and Brad would have 5 of them. Good luck hiring a coach in that scenario, considering our reputation for not supporting basketball well.
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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so you are saying, if we do not make the NCAAT next year, it
Mar 27, 2019, 8:28 PM
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would be ridiculous to fire him... That would make 2 in 10 years, and 1 in the last 9...
but if he somehow got to 20 wins, and got to the NIT, it would be ridiculous to fire him? Did I read that right?
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All-In [43544]
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I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous.
Mar 27, 2019, 8:36 PM
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But it would certainly look ridiculous, given our basketball history at Clemson.
If you were a prospective coach, knowing that Clemson is a hard job with little basketball history and not funded well, wouldn’t you think twice about accepting the job? Clemson’s basketball job is a hard enough sell as it is.
And no, I’m not saying that is a reason to keep a coach if he isn’t meeting expectations. But an AD has to think about such things. Perception is reality.
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110%er [6258]
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Re: I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous.
Mar 27, 2019, 8:47 PM
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Just because the history of Clemson basketball isn't great does not mean we have to keep being satisfied with just 20 wins Judge. You are allowed to step out of your comfort zone and have more success.
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All-In [43544]
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I agree 100% that we should strive for more.
Mar 27, 2019, 8:52 PM
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But if the perception is that we are a bad basketball job, and don’t support basketball well, who in their right mind would take the job if three 20 win seasons in a row isn’t good enough?
In other words, we must change that perception by funding and supporting basketball better. Which is what I’ve been harping on for weeks now.
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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I can't think of one major college program that defines
Mar 27, 2019, 8:54 PM
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success that way...
Coaches get fired for not making the NCAAT, period. When a new coach takes over, they aren't looking at 20 wins. They are looking to make the tournament.
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All-In [43544]
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Why don’t you tell us how many college programs
Mar 27, 2019, 10:19 PM
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have fired a coach coming off of three straight 20-win seasons? I’ll wait.
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Commissioner [919]
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Re: Why don’t you tell us how many college programs
Mar 27, 2019, 10:47 PM
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Alabama fired Avery after 18, 20 and 19 win seasons
UCLA fired Alford mid season.
Did Sansbury retire or was he fired at Miss St, cant remember....
Nebraska just fired Tim Miles after 19 and 22 win seasons
How about Weber when he left Illinois for K State? Fired or left cant remember??
That is few off the top of my head without looking for more
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Starter [386]
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Well yeah but
Mar 28, 2019, 9:34 AM
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I got nothing.
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All-In [43544]
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You aren't answering the question.
Mar 28, 2019, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why don’t you tell us how many college programs ] |
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I asked about coaches who had won three 20-win seasons in a row right before being fired. Winning 20 games is considered a barometer of a successful season (not the only barometer, but certainly one of several).
Avery Johnson didn't win 20 games three years in a row. Neither did Tim Miles.
Steve Alford was fired after going 31-5, 21-12, and 7-6.
Stansbury retired after winning 24, 17, and 21 games his last 3 seasons at Mississippi State.
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110%er [7720]
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That's not entirely true
Mar 28, 2019, 1:20 PM
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Winning 20 games overall in a season is not really the barometer of success in college basketball.
Winning 20 games in the regular season + conference tournament is the real barometer. That is what usually gets you into the NCAAT, which is the only post-season tournament that matters. That's why it is not reasonable to count NIT wins as part of your current analysis.
So Brad has won 17, 23, and 19. If he makes it to 20 wins in the regular season and ACCT next year, then it is a successful season and we will likely be in the NCAAT.
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All-In [43544]
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If you ask most coaches how they define a successful
Mar 28, 2019, 1:47 PM
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season, 99% would include winning 20 games in their answer.
Obviously, the composition of those 20 wins, who you beat, and how many of those wins came in the regular season vs. postseason matters as well. But the bottom line is that firing a coach immediately following three 20-win seasons in a row is extremely uncommon.
I'm still waiting on someone to find an example of a coach who has been fired under these circumstances.
Firing a basketball coach at Clemson for this would certainly be unprecedented, since we've only won 20 games three years in a row once in our history thus far.
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Starter [386]
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Cool story, bro'***
Mar 28, 2019, 5:57 PM
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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Well-TerrierFan just gave you some... so you didn't have to wait
Mar 27, 2019, 11:35 PM
[ in reply to Why don’t you tell us how many college programs ] |
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long...
Plus, how many major college programs can win 20 games for 3 straight years w/o going to the NCAAT? Or even with only one bid for that matter? Doesn't happen often...
If it happens to Clemson, it will be further indication that we can't win the games needed to get us there.
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All-In [43544]
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None of the coaches he mentioned were fired coming
Mar 28, 2019, 11:01 AM
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off of three 20-win seasons in a row.
I'm happy to discuss any you can come up with who fit that criteria in major college basketball.
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Starter [386]
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The perception is that Clemson is a bad job?
Mar 28, 2019, 9:27 AM
[ in reply to I agree 100% that we should strive for more. ] |
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Where do you get that from?
Any coach worth his salt could see the potential for basketball success at Clemson. We have what we need, we're in the best basketball conference in America, and (thanks to football) the Clemson name travels all over the U.S. What basketball coach wouldnt want to build something at a well reknowned school in the heart of ACC territory?
Where are you getting, "its a bad job" type stuff? It would be a great job for a good coach.
Dabo laid the blueprint. Win and everything else falls into place.
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All-In [43544]
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Just because you think Clemson is a wonderful place
Mar 28, 2019, 11:04 AM
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and a great place to build a basketball powerhouse, it doesn't mean that potential basketball coaches do.
As I've stated, coaches (and their agents) are very aware of the barriers to success at Clemson. Is it possible to build a consistent winning program at Clemson? I believe so, but it's going to take way more investment to make that happen.
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Starter [386]
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Clemson is in a great spot to have a solid (above mediocre) program.
Mar 28, 2019, 12:32 PM
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Stop making words up. And stop pretending there are tangible barriers to being able to coach and win basketball games.
Money doesnt equal wins. Good coaching does.
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All-In [43544]
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What puts Clemson in a great spot to have the program
Mar 28, 2019, 1:48 PM
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you want us to have?
What are our advantages relative to other ACC schools?
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Starter [386]
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We have everything we need to win games.
Mar 28, 2019, 5:51 PM
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Even more interesting is you've never even tried to cite what we don't have. Slides? Putt-putt courses? Outdoor wiffle ball fields? We have just as much as most of the programs in the ACC.
Please, once and for all, list the things we don't have!
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110%er [7735]
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Re: The perception is that Clemson is a bad job?
Mar 28, 2019, 1:22 PM
[ in reply to The perception is that Clemson is a bad job? ] |
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Where do you get that from?
Any coach worth his salt could see the potential for basketball success at Clemson. We have what we need, we're in the best basketball conference in America, and (thanks to football) the Clemson name travels all over the U.S. What basketball coach wouldnt want to build something at a well reknowned school in the heart of ACC territory?
Where are you getting, "its a bad job" type stuff? It would be a great job for a good coach.
Dabo laid the blueprint. Win and everything else falls into place.
You are using the almost the same argument the coots used before they had to settle for their 5th choice named Muschamp
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110%er [7551]
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Re: I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous.
Mar 27, 2019, 9:24 PM
[ in reply to Re: I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous. ] |
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Exactly......if we look at it like Judge we will never be any better....... change can be good and Clemson can get and be better......how will we ever know if we sit back and do nothing but except things the way they are.......Go Tigers!!!!!
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All-In [43544]
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I’M NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULDN’T DO ANYTHING!
Mar 27, 2019, 10:09 PM
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I’m saying that we need to support basketball better. Much better. We are getting outspent significantly. This hinders our current coach’s ability to do his job, and will also prevent us from making the best hire possible when we are looking for our next coach.
FAILING TO ADDRESS THIS IS ACCEPTING MEDIOCRITY!
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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where should we spend more money? Where has Brad asked
Mar 27, 2019, 11:36 PM
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for more money and been denied?
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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He can't answer that. He doesn't know. He's just making
Mar 28, 2019, 8:46 AM
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any excuse he can think of to prop up a mediocre basketball coach.
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Starter [386]
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Need some slides and putt-putt courses.
Mar 28, 2019, 12:35 PM
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Only then will we win close games.
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All-In [43544]
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Pointing out Clemson's pathetic support for basketball
Mar 28, 2019, 1:44 PM
[ in reply to He can't answer that. He doesn't know. He's just making ] |
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is not making excuses. If you can't see that such a cheap approach to basketball hinders our ability to have a successful program, there is no helping you.
Continuing to fund basketball at such a low level is accepting mediocrity. Period.
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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how did other coaches succeed here?***
Mar 28, 2019, 1:45 PM
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All-In [43544]
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Lucked out on a couple of recruits and ran a style of play
Mar 28, 2019, 1:51 PM
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to get us just enough wins to make the NCAA Tournament but not win any games there in 5 of those 6 NCAA trips. And they both had their failures in recruiting and left when they saw a future decline in talent on the horizon as well as receiving better offers elsewhere.
You can keep pointing to Barnes and Purnell as beacons of coaching excellence all you want to, but what you better be thinking about is not only Clemson's ability to attract a successful coach, but also to keep him.
Again, if the issues within the program aren't addressed, the coaching carousel will just continue. Either the young up-and-comer we hire won't win enough and will be fired, or he will have a few years of success and bolt.
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All-TigerNet [12908]
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to quote JudgeKeller
Mar 28, 2019, 2:06 PM
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"enough with the excuses"
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Starter [386]
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Starter [386]
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All-In [43544]
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No, but it does affect recruiting and day-to-day operations
Mar 28, 2019, 1:52 PM
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both of which ultimately do affect our ability to win.
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Orange Blooded [2419]
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Re: No, but it does affect recruiting and day-to-day operations
Mar 28, 2019, 2:14 PM
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The right coach can and should win basketball games at Clemson. Heck, football for the most part at Clemson was bad until we hired the right coach or coaches. We went from 1 championship in 100 years to two in three years and no telling how many more on the horizon in football. Basketball is the same way. Give us the right guy and he will will more games for us. It doesn’t have to be a high dollar guy, but a great guy for Clemson. Heck, a lot of guys would coach fo a million bucks and do a #### good job. Give me the Renfrows of basketball and watch out. It’s a combination on teamwork and desire to win....we don’t have it now. Heck, just improving our free throw shooting a couple of points a game will win us five games a season. Making the players make 100 free throws a day will help a lot. They may have to shoot 300 shots a day, but the will eventually get better by making 100 a day.
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All-In [43544]
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We were 5th in the ACC in free throw percentage this year.
Mar 28, 2019, 2:45 PM
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FYI.
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Orange Blooded [2419]
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Re: We were 5th in the ACC in free throw percentage this year.
Mar 28, 2019, 7:01 PM
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How many games did we lose because of free throws?
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All-In [43544]
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CU Guru [1105]
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Part of the reason why Clemson doesn't spend as much
Mar 28, 2019, 1:16 PM
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as those other programs is because it's revenues are way less. What the football program has achieved is a miracle considering how small the athletic program revenues are compared to other major programs, and I'm sure the revenue gap in MBB is even greater given how little fan support basketball has compared to football. You can't spend money you don't have.
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110%er [7720]
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We all know exactly where they are spending more money
Mar 28, 2019, 1:25 PM
[ in reply to I'm not walking you though this again. ] |
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It's going straight into the pockets of their players. That's the only way to land the elite players in CBB consistently.
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CU Guru [1105]
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Schools aren't counting illegal payouts to players in their expenditures
Mar 28, 2019, 2:25 PM
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I don't doubt that happens, but there's elaborate systems to make sure the schools aren't directly linked to that money.
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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For me, I know what . .
Mar 27, 2019, 9:33 PM
[ in reply to I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous. ] |
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bothers me. In many ways, he is fine. But it's about recruiting. He doesn't recruit well IMO. There are so many players at smaller school that would be an upgrade for us. And it's about the right kind of player, to satisfy your plan for winning. Brad just isn't doing that. And like professional sports as well, sometimes you need to shake the club up, make a change. You can't fire the players, so you . . . .
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Oculus Spirit [75803]
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Re: For me, I know what . .
Mar 27, 2019, 9:43 PM
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Pete, You think there is merit to the argument regarding program support as it relates to performance? Maybe Brad is not the best for our program, but do you think he has the resources other programs have that are more successful?
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Orange Blooded [3367]
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Re: For me, I know what . .
Mar 27, 2019, 11:21 PM
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Talking to yourself ? You sure you’re not Pete
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Starter [386]
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And yet again, our history doesn't mean squat
Mar 28, 2019, 9:20 AM
[ in reply to I’m not saying that it would be ridiculous. ] |
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towards wins and losses today. You act like we're predestined to fail, therefore mediocrity is acceptable. Thats lame.
Clemson isn't a "hard" job. There's nothing tangible making it difficult to win here. For a guy who can coach up some W's, Clemson is a diamond in the rough.
Perception is reality, only if you let it be so. Time for change.
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CU Medallion [50635]
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Orange Blooded [3367]
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Re: Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year
Mar 27, 2019, 8:34 PM
[ in reply to Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year ] |
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For the record I thought CBB should have been fired 3 years ago because we have had enough talent to do more. But since they have stuck with him and I believe the program over the last 3 years has gotten a tad bit better. Let’s just give him the benefit of the doubt and see how next year plays out . I don’t think we go to the NCAA but if the team is playing good at the end of the year. If it looks like the young team is progressing, give him one more year to make the Dance. So in other words unless we go 10-20 next year give him 2 more years.
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CU Medallion [57939]
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What would be ridiculous would be to use our basketball
Mar 27, 2019, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year ] |
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history as an excuse not to make such a decision; If anything, it's reason to make that change. Yes, we absolutely must provide everything a coach could need to improve our program and compete at a higher level - without question. That includes money/salary, perks, facilities, PR/promotion, etc.. We have to change the perception, and that means all of the above, but it can't be done with our current coach who is part of and therefore inextricably tied to our history of mediocrity and underacheiving, whether it's his fault or not.
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110%er [9587]
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All-In [43544]
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Is this a serious question?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:18 PM
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Our basketball reputation is a bad one. I wish it weren’t true, but it is. We have an overall record barely above .500, the worst ACC winning percentage in the conference’s history, and zero ACC championships. We only have 11 NCAA Tournament appearances, and no Final Fours.
We have put very few players into the NBA throughout our history. We have earned a reputation for not caring about basketball. We historically pay our coaches less, and provide them with less. And our fans don’t consistently support the team.
This is the reputation we have earned over the past 100 years, and we justified it (and still largely do) by saying that we are a football school and that’s what matters. I think that’s disgusting.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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I'm not so sure you can assume we will not spend on BKB
Mar 27, 2019, 9:36 PM
[ in reply to Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year ] |
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We used to have the same complaints with football but the spending has increased gradually as the success of the program has continued to rise.
If we can start winning and recruiting better the spending will explode.
We need to show some progress and build some confidence in the program.
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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Bingo! Such a simple point that seems beyond the grasp
Mar 28, 2019, 8:55 AM
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of a small group.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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How many games in a season does Clemson play now
Mar 28, 2019, 10:41 AM
[ in reply to Firing a coach who wins 20 games in a rebuilding year ] |
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compared to all the coaches in Clemson history? We got what...34 games this year with an ACCT game and 2 NIT games? I don't think a Rick Barnes team ever played 34 games, I may be wrong though.
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110%er [9587]
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Standout [315]
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Re: Don’t worry about Brad Brownell...
Mar 27, 2019, 8:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Don’t worry about Brad Brownell... ] |
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People talk about how tough the ACC is, but it's not nearly as tough now as it was when it was an eight- or nine-team conference. Sure, there are some great teams, a couple of good ones but there are a lot of bad teams. Back in the old ACC when you played every team twice, and those teams were loaded? It was crazy.
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All-In [43544]
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How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 8:21 PM
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I’m amazed by all of our “fans” here who are already declaring next season to be awful.
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Standout [315]
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Re: How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 8:27 PM
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Who knows what it will be but it's understandable people don't have hope without Reed to do so much scoring like he did this year
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110%er [6258]
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Re: How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 8:49 PM
[ in reply to How about we see how next season plays out first? ] |
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I agree with that. I wouldn't mind a different coach now but know it won't happen. Our boys could be good next year. We have talent coming in and I think Trapp has stepped up, Simms could take the next step, Tyson and Newman look like good players just had some freshman moments. BB just has to get us to finish atleast half of our close games and change things on O when they do not work.
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Oculus Spirit [75803]
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Re: How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 9:27 PM
[ in reply to How about we see how next season plays out first? ] |
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Makes you wonder what fans would say if we had greater success? Just what is success at Clemson in those eyes? Sweet 16 every other year? When does that lose luster? Thank God Dabo is “successful.” Otherwise, this board would be 50x more negative. Unbelievable.
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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Re: How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 9:35 PM
[ in reply to How about we see how next season plays out first? ] |
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We have no scorers returning. Trying to put your faith in freshmen to be the scorers is crazy, unless you are Duke.
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Oculus Spirit [75803]
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Re: How about we see how next season plays out first?
Mar 27, 2019, 10:44 PM
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Come on Pete. Let’s see what happens.
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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That seems to be the refrain every year. "Let's see what
Mar 28, 2019, 8:50 AM
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happens next year."
After 9 years, we have a lot of information to inform us on what to realistically expect.
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Legend [19402]
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If someone can tell me
Mar 27, 2019, 10:23 PM
[ in reply to How about we see how next season plays out first? ] |
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1) Who's playing PG? Trapp has not shown any signs he's an ACC caliber PG. More turnovers than assists in limited time this year. Dawes is a freshman, and in Brad's soon to be 10 years, he's had zero high impact freshmen. Maybe next year we see the first
2) Who can create their own shot? I've seen no indication from any of the guys returning they can get their own shot like Reed or Devoe could.
3) Who is consistently hitting threes? No one returning did that last year
4) Who is our low post scoring threat? Simms camped out at the 3 line all year. White improved but hardly looked like a starting ACC center. Baehre is getting pumped up but averaged 7ppg at Asheville the last time he played. Jemison and William have proven nothing.
I'm not trying to be negative, but I am trying to be objective. Based on what we return, well, it's less than anyone else in the league. And with Brad's track record of recruiting freshmen who take time to develop, it's difficult to be optimistic. I'd love to be shocked and us have a great year, but I just dont see it
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Starter [386]
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Answers
Mar 28, 2019, 5:56 PM
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1) The facilities
2) The admin
3) The fans
4) The budget
All is well.
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Starter [386]
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Orange Blooded [4047]
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Re: Don’t worry about Brad Brownell...
Mar 27, 2019, 9:50 PM
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I don't even know who that is
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Heisman Winner [139241]
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I’m not.***
Mar 27, 2019, 10:40 PM
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Commissioner [919]
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Re: I’m not.***
Mar 27, 2019, 10:51 PM
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Anyone who thinks Clemson next year is going to be anything other than a train wreck is fooling themselves.
The ACC will be deeper next season and just as strong at the top.
Clemson is looking at 3-17 in the ACC and will be fortunate to do better than 10-20 overall.
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Heisman Winner [139241]
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What does that have to do with me worrying about CBB?***
Mar 28, 2019, 12:04 PM
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110%er [7735]
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Re: Don’t worry about Brad Brownell...
Mar 28, 2019, 1:39 PM
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It will take care of itself next season when we s*ck out loud that he won’t be able to survive with a buyout less than a $ million...
To be a Clemson fan, you seem awfully happy about the prospect of out losing a bunch of games. An actual fan would celebrate victory, not defeat
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