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All-In [48078]
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Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 7:44 AM
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How would you handle the situation overall for starters? Also, what would be proper living conditions exactly? No chain link fences? What would you replace with? Would you lock them up at all? I realize you call them concentration camps, but if you were king what would you do about it all and what would the situation look like?
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Legend [19901]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 7:48 AM
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He’d invite them all to stay at YOUR HOUSE.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 7:56 AM
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That's cool. I could use some help around here. Seriously though, he calls tjem concentration camps and complains about the chain link fences, so I am just wondering what he would do differently.
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110%er [5854]
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 8:21 AM
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Some of the "facts" in there are wrong. There is a border crisis. Dems and Repubs agree now. Also, watch the 60 minutes episode on the border from about a month or so ago. It's a crisis. Anyway, how would you personally house them or would you not?
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All-In [31887]
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I've been to 2 concentration camps in Germany....
Jul 16, 2019, 8:28 AM
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and I've been to the Holocaust Museum. I've never been to an immigration holding center, but I can just about guarantee they aren't anything like a Nazi concentration camps/extermination camps.
I'm not one for taking too much offense at speech, but dang if the calling of these immigration holding centers concentration camps doesn't offend me at a deep level. Touring the concentration camps was a life altering experience...one of those things that just sticks with you.
So many people just go to the most explosive language that they can come up with to score political points...heck, I'll even give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're trying to bring change to cause they believe in (which likely has some merit), but come on...concentration camps? Which is widely associated with the execution camps whose the sole purpose was to exterminate jews and political detractors?!?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: I've been to 2 concentration camps in Germany....
Jul 16, 2019, 8:52 AM
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Moroever, I am not 100% sure, but those seeking asylum can probably leave those holding areas and ask to just abandon their asylum quest. Not even similar situations.
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All-In [42139]
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You're getting too caught up in semantics
Jul 16, 2019, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to I've been to 2 concentration camps in Germany.... ] |
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As are all who get upset at the use of "concentration camps".
By definition, these camps are just that. When we hear the words, we automatically think Nazis, but the Nazis just happened to turn their version of concentration camps into centers of death, torture, and forced labor.
From Merriam-Webster:
"a place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard —used especially in reference to camps created by the Nazis in World War II for the internment and persecution of Jews and other prisoners"
Are they refugees detained and confined under armed guard?
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All-In [26968]
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I think the main point is,
Jul 16, 2019, 11:08 AM
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That the language is intentionally inflammatory. The words were chosen to have emotional impact. Do you deny this?
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All-In [42139]
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Re: I think the main point is,
Jul 16, 2019, 11:17 AM
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No, I don't deny it, but it still fits the definition.
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All-In [26968]
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It can possibly fit the definition...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:21 AM
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But it was, intentionally, not the most precise choice of language.
Less precise language was willfully chosen in order to incite anger.
I think we should always choose the most precise language we can when discussing matters of importance.
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All-In [26968]
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Which do you think would result in more improvement:
Jul 16, 2019, 11:25 AM
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Providing a list to the facility and to the public of issues that should be addressed. "The facility's conditions are not acceptable in the following areas: _______ ."
Or,
Calling the facilities concentration camps and saying negative things about the officials there and government authorities.
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All-In [42139]
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Re: Which do you think would result in more improvement:
Jul 16, 2019, 11:26 AM
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I don't know because both of those have been done and the problem isn't getting fixed.
People toured the children facilities and described the deplorable conditions, and nothing is being done.
Language isn't the issue here. ###### people who are making this happen are the issue.
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All-In [26968]
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Language is the issue in this thread.
Jul 16, 2019, 11:29 AM
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That's why we're discussing it.
I agree that language isn't the most important issue when it comes to immigration.
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All-In [26968]
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*sub-thread****
Jul 16, 2019, 11:31 AM
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Heisman Winner [119687]
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All-In [42139]
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Re: It can possibly fit the definition...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:25 AM
[ in reply to It can possibly fit the definition... ] |
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"A place where large numbers of people (such as prisoners of war, political prisoners, refugees, or the members of an ethnic or religious minority) are detained or confined under armed guard."
That seems pretty precise.
Large number of people? Check
Refugees? Check
Detained/confined under armed guard? Check
What definition would you propose?
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All-In [26968]
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So why aren't they officially known as
Jul 16, 2019, 11:28 AM
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"Concentration Camps"? If that's the most precise langauge, that's what they should be called, officially by the US government.
Why aren't our prisons called concentration camps? It fits the definition. What about our schools? Looks like that could fit, too.
The reason is that there are better things to call it, that more precisely reflect the purpose.
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All-In [26968]
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Some would call our schools "war zones"...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:30 AM
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I'm sure we could find a way to make the school fit the definition of "war zone," but I disagree with the characterization.
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All-In [42139]
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Re: So why aren't they officially known as
Jul 16, 2019, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to So why aren't they officially known as ] |
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I'm sorry, friend, but you're being a bit obtuse here. Of course the Trump admin isn't going to accurately call them that. They're an admin that runs on dishonesty.
Prisons have their own definition.
Schools? C'mon, man.
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All-In [26968]
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If you can say "prisons have their own definition"
Jul 16, 2019, 11:36 AM
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Why can't I say "detention centers have their own definition" and dismiss the use of the words "concentration camp"? What's the difference?
President Trump did not decide to call them detention centers. That's what they've always been called, under multiple presidents and multiple political parties.
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All-In [49031]
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They probably should be...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:35 AM
[ in reply to So why aren't they officially known as ] |
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"'Concentration camp' is a term that predates both Hitler and Communism. The Nazi concentration camps are more usually, and more accurately described as Death Camps. Stalin's Gulags are slightly different, as they were prison camps, though the "crimes" and "trials" were often specious. But a concentration camp, such as those operated by the British during the Boer War, does not in and of itself suggest atrocity."
and the Holocaust museum itself describes it like this: "The term concentration camp refers to a camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment that are acceptable in a constitutional democracy."
By the definition espoused in the Holocaust museum, the term accurately describes the detention facilities.
You could argue that Nazi's reference to Death Camps and forced labor camps as "concentration camps" was almost a euphemism for what was really going on in the camps.
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All-In [49031]
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All-In [31887]
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nah...they are officially called detention centers...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:32 AM
[ in reply to You're getting too caught up in semantics ] |
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that's what everyone on both sides of the "issue" called them...until a few weeks ago. I'm sure others did it as well, but it was the AOC statement/tweet saying we had "concentration camps on our southern border." That was purely for effect and to relate them to Nazi concentration camps.
This is the definition of detention center:
"an institution where people are held in detention for short periods, in particular illegal immigrants, refugees, people awaiting trial or sentence, or youthful offenders."
Very specific and better fitting. It's why they are called what they are called. It's what everyone dems, pubs, everyone called them. Now, many opposed to their use/conditions use concentration camps. Why? (hint...because they wanted to conjure the image of German concentration camps to help their cause)
And with all of that said...I agree we have a moral responsibility to make sure conditions are humane in these detention centers to the very best of our ability. If they aren't, that needs to be addressed urgently.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't think anyone argues that they used the language
Jul 16, 2019, 11:42 AM
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on purpose to make people think of Nazi Germany. The disagreement may be about how wrong that is to do. I believe it's disingenuous on its face, regardless of whether you believe the definition fits.
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All-In [31887]
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I don't take lightly that a sitting member of Congress....
Jul 16, 2019, 12:51 PM
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accuses our country of running concentration camps with the clear intent to strike up images of Nazi Germany. It crosses the line...at least my line, whatever that is worth.
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All-In [42139]
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Your last line...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:42 AM
[ in reply to nah...they are officially called detention centers... ] |
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Is the real heart of this matter, and all of us are getting too busy caught up in semantics.
And also getting distracted by Trump's obvious "Look, squirrel!" Tweet where he told the four Congresswomen to go back home. He knew what he was doing.
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All-In [31887]
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I don't agree....
Jul 16, 2019, 1:16 PM
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it's not a matter of semantics to have a sitting member of Congress accuse the government of running concentration camps with the clear intent to conjure images of Nazi Germany. We can parse meanings of words and history of words all we want, but that is what she and others were/are doing.
I don't think arguing over the use of such language at all detracts from the underlying issue. In fact, the underlying issue had PLENTY of attention prior to AOC's and other's comments. In fact, I THINK her comments came after the border funding bill passed the HOR.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I don't agree....
Jul 16, 2019, 4:03 PM
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Does it give you any pause that a lot of these protests are being organized by Jewish groups? And that their slogan is "Never again"?
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All-In [31887]
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Probably as much as you take from the many....
Jul 16, 2019, 5:13 PM
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Jews and Jewish organizations that take great offense at the use of the term.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Probably as much as you take from the many....
Jul 16, 2019, 7:35 PM
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Have there been a lot? I remember that one who put out a statement and they caught holy hell.
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All-In [31887]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 9:14 AM
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For starters, end the racist and xenophobic rhetoric. Stop threatening things like effectively shutting down our asylum system. That is primarily what has caused the asylum crisis as desperate people think this could be their last chance. And I know you'll breathlessly try to figure out why it's not Trump's fault, but it is and plenty of expert observers say it is. If you think Soros is paying these people to come, please don't ever vote.
Second, I would acknowledge that the illegal immigration crisis was a lie made up by Trump. Illegal immigration was down dramatically since the 1990's and in 2016, we had net negative illegal immigration. So I'm going to stick to just the asylum stuff.
Third, we hire the legal personnel needed to get these people through the system. Since getting Republicans out of the way would diminish the number of asylum seekers, we may not need to hire many, but there still are a lot there Asa really of Trump that need to be processed through. When the admin says that most asylum seekers skip their hearings, they're lying. Here's an article explaining it, with all their numbers cited from DOJ. https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/fact-check-asylum-seekers-regularly-attend-immigration-court-hearings
As for the concentration camps (yes, that's what they are, which is why the protestors include tons of Jews who will happily explain to flow why concentration camps aren't unique to the holocaust), I wouldn't lie about asylum seekers skipping hearings, so I wouldn't need camps.
Anyway, the whole solution to this is get rid of Trump.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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I think we've found the 9% who view Omar favorably.***
Jul 16, 2019, 9:21 AM
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I think we've found the 9% who view Omar favorably.***
Jul 16, 2019, 9:24 AM
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I'm 9% of Americans? That means the US is home to 11 people.
Did the rapture happen overnight?
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All-In [31887]
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ooh you get him there!! ^eye roll^***
Jul 16, 2019, 10:25 AM
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: ooh you get him there!! ^eye roll^***
Jul 16, 2019, 10:29 AM
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Haha. Hitting the sauce a little early today?
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All-In [31887]
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saaaawing and a misssssssss***
Jul 16, 2019, 10:49 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: I've never seen you condemn any democrat's behavior.
Jul 16, 2019, 8:11 PM
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AOC certainly has done great things by way of bringing new voters to the table. Most things I've heard about her that are supposed to be crazy are lies or misrepresentations. Anyone who doesn't realize that the GND was 1. Not a bill and 2. Only a place to start planning... is an idiot.
Omar has said some dumb things and to be fair I don't follow her much. It would be unfair for me to draw an opinion.
Antifa were well intentioned for about a month. It's been taken over by incels, losers, and psychos.
I've never heard you reject a Republican.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 9:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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I would add that some sort of short term holding is needed even after the Trump crisis ends. I don't really have a problem with chain link barriers as long as the people are given food, toiletries, a comfortable place to sleep, and are kept in contact with family members without forced separation.
If I have to actually explain how to treat human beings, then we really are in a sad state.
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
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If we're taking their cell phones we need to give them back.
Jul 16, 2019, 11:15 AM
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Maybe they will tweet photos of the horrible conditions they face when they cross the border and that will discourage people in Central America who think America welcomes them with open arms.
Is that what you mean?
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 9:25 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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You didnt give any answers there really other than to process them faster with more employees. The rest was just gibberish. How would you house them? What would do differently in that regard? How would you not make them "concentration camps"? Also, people in concentration camps usually can't leave. These immigrants can leave. How would you house them? What would it look like?
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 9:29 AM
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I explained how the situation can be entirely resolved and you think I didn't answer?
Man, this board really is another world. It's so crazy to witness this stuff.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 9:35 AM
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You're comment was very naive imo if that is your answer. Anyway, would you house them at all and what would that look like or would you just let them through basically? What would you do with the 150,000 at the southern border every month. Where would they be processed?
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All-In [40344]
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so you are saying Trump not being in office is going
Jul 16, 2019, 10:47 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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to magically fix this over night?
with the small "after the trump crisis ends" to allow for a little wiggle room on the ending.
and how exactly are you going to remove the republicans to help the asylum seekers?
i just got really interested in this thread
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All-In [31887]
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I know they're not unique to the holocaust, but....
Jul 16, 2019, 10:23 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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you're a fool if you think the folks that started using that term weren't intending to reference the German concentration camps. If you took a poll of what people associate that term with, I bet 90% plus would be German camps/WWII.
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All-In [31887]
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You seem to be saying the influx of people from...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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Central America has to do with US policy and a fear of further restrictions on entry. And you seemingly ignore the political situation in Central America. You don't think the situation in certain countries contribute more to the rise in asylum seekers as compared to US immigration policy?
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All-In [42139]
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Re: You seem to be saying the influx of people from...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:03 AM
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And those problems in Central America are ones that we pretty much created decades ago.
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All-In [31887]
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perhaps, but he seems to be laying it all at Trump's feet...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:36 AM
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pretty much saying the problem goes away when Trump goes away. I can't imagine many informed people would agree with that position. I surely don't.
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All-In [42139]
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Re: perhaps, but he seems to be laying it all at Trump's feet...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:45 AM
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The removal of Trump certainly won't be a magic switch for the overall immigration issue. I wager it's something one single president can't fix.
Removing him will remove the intentional cruelty towards children and the zero tolerance policy. So that's a start.
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110%er [7026]
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If he'd have just done it quietly without freaking tweeting
Jul 16, 2019, 4:09 PM
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about it like President Obama did, it would have been so nice to not have to hear about it 24/7.
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All-In [42139]
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Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers.
Jul 16, 2019, 11:16 AM
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Well, CU17 pretty much answered it (and yeah, he did answer it).
The main issue is that the cruelty is intentional. The Trump admin has the ability to make the conditions better while also eliminating the zero tolerance policy his administration created (remember the Jeff Sessions speech on it a while back?). Because of the policy, more immigrants have been detained, especially in the case of children, who ordinarily would not have been.
As CU17 said, the "immigration crisis" is a manufactured political one. Aside from current economic conditions, this is the one issue where Trump still scores high with a certain segment of the population. But immigration has waned quite a bit over the past several years and is nowhere near the problem it used to be.
In the camps with the children, basic necessities are being denied to these kids. Young children are being asked to take care of toddlers.
And when citizens have tried to donate goods and supplies, they have been rejected (see link below).
If anyone is going to sit here and tell me our government cannot provide basic, standard, humane care for children temporarily housed in these centers given all the other #### we can easily afford, well, then that person has reached the height of naivety.
In the end, we are detaining children in cruel conditions. And we're doing it intentionally. The cruelty is the point.
#########, this is America. We don't do this.
The following responses aren't valid regarding our detaining of the children and I'll explain why:
-"Their parents shouldn't have broken the law to bring them here!" Seeking asylum isn't breaking the law and that still doesn't justify doing this to the kids.
-"Some of these kids are just being trafficked! Those aren't their real parents!" And? That justifies punishing those children?
-"Why don't you take them in?!" Idiot response. Harming kids is okay because I can't physically house them all?
-"Obama did it!" And? That justifies punishing children?
-"We have lots of kids in America who need help! And what about kids whose parents go to jail?!" Are we taking all those kids and locking them up in camps with terrible conditions? No? Okay.
At the end of the day, if you continue to justify or make apologies for what's happening, then you're advocating our government intentionally placing children in horrible conditions in these camps. I understand there are a small few folks on this board who actually like that idea, but for the majority here who are sane individuals, I wager you have the empathy to realize this needs to stop.
And for those upset with the use of "concentration camps" to describe them, I'll at least say this: Many children died in Nazi camps from disease due to intentional denial of proper health care and the spread of disease.
Here's to hoping we don't soon have a parallel between the two in our own country.
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All-In [42139]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38225
Joined: 11/30/98
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Oculus Spirit [93658]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Joined: 12/25/09
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I quit reading at...
Jul 16, 2019, 11:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: Question for CU17 on illegals as well as asylum seekers. ] |
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'The Trump admin has the ability to make the conditions better while also eliminating the zero tolerance policy his administration created.'
That ignore the facts of Obama's deportation policy laid out in the following link and also ignores the warning Trump gave in Jan, seven months ago about the impending border patrol being overwhelmed by the vast numbers in the caravans. He also asked for more funds to meet the growing needs at the border which were ignored with such accusations of 'manufactured crisis.'
The foundation of the argument is invalid. You should just stick to calling Trump a racist because creating a problem as dems did and blaming it on Trump isn't working for the average American.
Can Trump fix it? No, the ninth circuit stopped him from rolling back executive orders which lit this fire. Only the SCOTUS or Congress can fix this mess and dems are banking on the SCOTUS sitting on their hand allowing congress to sit on their hands and use this for political gain.
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All-In [42139]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38225
Joined: 11/30/98
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Of course you did.
Jul 16, 2019, 11:40 AM
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We already know you intentionally avoid topics that make you uncomfortable and that you can't dispute. But I invite you to attempt it again and get to the part about the children. I'd like to know if you actually support this.
Now I'll address your points because "I stopped reading at..." is a cop out that I don't employ. Either a person actually did read it all and is pretending he didn't, or he just simply wants to live in a bubble.
That ignore the facts of Obama's deportation policy laid out in the following link and also ignores the warning Trump gave in Jan, seven months ago about the impending border patrol being overwhelmed by the vast numbers in the caravans. He also asked for more funds to meet the growing needs at the border which were ignored with such accusations of 'manufactured crisis.'
I already destroyed the "But Obama" argument later in the post (but you didn't read it, remember?). He wanted funds for a border wall, not better facilities. Remember how he was just going to declare a national emergency and take the funds anyway?
Obama's policies under this effort were quite different as they weren't "zero tolerance," thus they didn't detain asylum seekers or lock up kids in this fashion. Children were processed much faster under that system and only detained if they were suspected to have been trafficked or the government couldn't find an immediate relative right away. This situation is far different.
The foundation of the argument is invalid. You should just stick to calling Trump a racist because creating a problem as dems did and blaming it on Trump isn't working for the average American.
Well, we'll put aside the fact that he is a racist (he is) and point out that this is just a calculated political move. It's an agenda. You can't fight the fact that immigration has decreased and Trump's "zero tolerance" policy was unnecessary.
But it was celebrated by people like you.
Can Trump fix it? No, the ninth circuit stopped him from rolling back executive orders which lit this fire. Only the SCOTUS or Congress can fix this mess and dems are banking on the SCOTUS sitting on their hand allowing congress to sit on their hands and use this for political gain.
He can certainly fix the conditions and treatment of camps. But you're incapable of reading that far to see I already addressed at that.
At the end of the day, you're a defender and apologist of children being locked in camps and treated poorly. But I will entertain your efforts to prove that statement wrong.
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