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Orange Blooded [2441]
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This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 11:13 AM
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a mess and a disaster of a roster is a complete myth. When OP left, the roster consisted of the following players:
Srs: Stitt and Grant
Jrs: Smith, Young, Narcisse and Baciu
Sos: Booker and Jennings
Brownell pretty much ran off Noel Johnson (4 stars) and Donte Hill (3 stars), who were both highly touted but didn't turn into much.
Yes, the freshman class was virtually non-existent because of the coaching change, but that list above is a nice team, is far from a disaster or mess as they went to the tourney in only his first year. After that first year, the incoming classes are all on him.
Everyone likes BB and wishes he would have been more successful, But in year 9, it's clear he does not recruit well enough to consistently make the tourney. Whether it's his lack of charisma or lack of great assistants, I don't know. Heck, it may be him playing by the rules while others are not. I'm not sure. Bottom line is that we should be making the tourney more than once every five years (and after a drought of seven years). You can blame facilities or fan support or administration support, but at some point, the blame has to fall on him.
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CU Guru [1105]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 11:20 AM
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Our facilities are fine, and fan support is a reflection on the coach/program and the product they're putting on the court.
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Freshman [-41]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 11:29 AM
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Who cares? This was ages ago and Brownell has had his own guys in our program for a long time now
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CU Medallion [55284]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 11:34 AM
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The players that he had there was ok, but he had nothing really coming in as I remember, in other words, he left the cupboards bare....
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Legend [16646]
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Save your breath, AllOrange
Feb 18, 2019, 11:38 AM
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They're not remotely interested in history or reality. They're here to bash...nothing more.
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All-In [40868]
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Narcisse went on to be a Harlem Globtrotter***
Feb 18, 2019, 11:41 AM
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CU Guru [1507]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 11:47 AM
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Stitt was an utra-competive player that said publicly that Brownell was the best basketball coach he ever had.
Grant had pro aspirations
SO both of those players bought into Brownell's system and excelled....
Narcisse was an athlete that Purnell picked up as a fall back that had very few offers. he could jump and that was about it. Brownell made him a respectable player.
Baicui is the same. Purnell never played him except when it was late in a blow out. Brownell developed him into a decent post player so that he actually could use his height.
If you intellectually honest about OP and Brownell and the players listed below (minus Grant and Stitt) you have to admit that from OPs view the cupboard WAS bare. Those guys did not fit OPs system at all but he recruited them to fill out a roster. At the time everyone was wondering why OP signed them - was he going to change up his style? Maybe Narcisse because of the jumping ability, but these were not complete players and really off for what Purnell liked to do.
I would like for Brownell to have had more success in his tenure than he has had, but this continual OP love affair is ridiculous. OP was a one trick pony that had a good run, but once the league understood where it was coming from it was over.
David young should not be on your list - he was OP's lone senior the year he left. OP did not develop player skills - David Young came in looking scared to shoot a jump shot and left looking scared to shoot a jump shot.
Smith fit Brownell well, but not OP
Booker and Jennings - what a joke. The weed brothers played sleeping and soft. I dont think it would matter who their coach was OP or Brownell. They nicknamed Sleepy and Wilty by every Clemson fan I know.
Booker actually had some inspired play late in his career under Brownell when Milty was kicked off the team for a while.
DOnte Hill used the coaching change to move closer to home - Brownell did not run him off. Hill I think had a child back home in VA.
You left off Sykes. Sykes was all over the place under OP sitting the bench coming in a fouling and when he got some coaching and development he ended up contributing pretty well. He learned to take that 6 to 8 foot jump shot (something I would like to see more off this year).
Again if you are honest about the basketball skill improvements and style differences, OP left the cupboard bare and Brownell still made sandwiches!
I agree with your last paragraph - Brownell needs to really up the recruiting efforts. He has been close on a couple of difference makers but second in recruiting is last.
Lets just hope they can keep competing and make a run and finish the season with a dance or two, but please lets move on from OP and Barnes - those ships have sailed, sunk and salvaged.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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Who is David Young? I'm talking about Andre Young
Feb 18, 2019, 12:16 PM
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and he was a key contributor both with OP and BB.
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All-TigerNet [11423]
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Re: Who is David Young? I'm talking about Andre Young
Feb 18, 2019, 12:42 PM
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Andre Young was a top 100 layer and Tanner Smith was a top 150 player. It can be argued they were never developed enough after OP left under Brad?
Narcise fell under the mode of OP's system at the top of the press like James Mays. He would have been a better player under OP's system.
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Legend [19567]
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They were both good role players
Feb 18, 2019, 4:20 PM
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But they were never guys who were going to lead a tourney team, as they showed in Brownell's second yesr
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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It's not a love affair, it's setting forth facts that the
Feb 18, 2019, 12:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB ] |
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roster OP left was not a disaster. Heck, OP made it three times prior with many of those players and BB made it in year 1 with that team. Yes, the freshmen class was a disaster due to the coaching change. But the sophomores through seniors were far from it.
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Orange Blooded [2441]
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CU Guru [1697]
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Coaching changes always leave style of play and players in
Feb 18, 2019, 12:38 PM
[ in reply to Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB ] |
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a lurch, but the new guy has accepted that challenge as terms of employment, and thereby takes on the "bad debt" so to speak to turn things around. one trick pony or not, OPurnell created more success in the program than Brownell has by making post season play 5 out of his 6 years, and that includes gifting Brownell a roster that made the tourney in Brownell's first year. And if you would be honest, the only teams that Brownell has led to the tourney are teams lead by other coaches players: OPurnell's players his first year and last year when 5 of his top 8 players were transfers. Transfers in bball are like juco's in football, they are stop gaps and roster fillers, but building a program starts with your own successfully recruited players. Brownell has signed but missed in evaluating plenty of his own players along the way, and 8 years is more than enough time to evaluate his performance. Clemson shouldn't just expect to field competitive, successful teams every 5-6 years, and we can look ahead to next year and reasonably see that the program is going to take a step back. I hope the team this year can win these last 5 games and not just the majority of them, but a reasonable forecast says that those chances are very slim. Now... if you truly want to be honest with all of this, the most telling sign that coaches have a bigger influence on the play of a team plays the same sport in the same facility as Clemson MBB... Amanda Butler has taken the same team that Audra Smith had and has them in better position to make the women's tournament this year than Brownell has with the team that ALL of us expected to at least make the tournament this year. We knew a Sweet 16 run would be more difficult this year, but WE ALL saw the roster and expected a better conference finish and a tourney invite than the trajectory that we are currently on. My observations are all about Brownell and the current landscape of CBB. No former coach is coming back, and neither do I desire that they do; I desire for Brownell to do better as a recruiter and a closer, but after 8 years, I can only believe what the results have produced...
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Legend [17220]
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In B-ball, 2 good years recruiting to have a tournament team***
Feb 18, 2019, 12:03 PM
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110%er [7929]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 12:34 PM
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At least all the ignorant coot trolls are keeping it in the same thread
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CU Medallion [58367]
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It doesn't matter, Brownell has been here 9 years.
Feb 18, 2019, 12:45 PM
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We can argue and debate all day about what he inherited, what he's had to work with, facilities, fan support, etc., but this is Brownell's program, lock stock and barrel. He is inextricably tied to the results. If he wins, he deserves praise; if he loses, he is and should be subject to criticism.
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Orange Blooded [3880]
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Re: It doesn't matter, Brownell has been here 9 years.
Feb 18, 2019, 1:02 PM
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Well said Smiling Tiger
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Also, Clemson is rural and no Basketball talent in SC
Feb 18, 2019, 4:14 PM
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At least that was a big theme several years ago.
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All-TigerNet [10901]
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For the size of our state, there has been lot of bball talent here.
Feb 18, 2019, 7:16 PM
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Two of the projected top three in this years draft are from SC. For some reason, our best, like Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen, decided to go elsewhere. Probably the best instate player we have had in recent years wss Trevor Booker. Jennings was certainly the epitome of inconsistency!!
Kris Middleton, a Charleston native who scored 20 in the NBA All-Star game last night, went to where...Villanove?
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Varsity [223]
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Re: Also, Clemson is rural and no Basketball talent in SC
Feb 18, 2019, 7:43 PM
[ in reply to Also, Clemson is rural and no Basketball talent in SC ] |
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Temetrious morant - Murray state projected lottery pick - Sumter Sc
Aaron nesmith - Charleston - Vanderbilt
Tevin Mack - Columbia - Alabama
And of course Zion.
This is BB’s recruiting problem. I suppose these players didn’t fit the system.
The biggest problem is the system. Herb sendek ran the motion offense at N.C. state, took them to the tournament five straight years and got fired. During the game Saturday went outside and after 10 minutes basketball time the score was the same! 39 minutes 47 points is like watching paint dry. 19 turnovers about half unforced?
Say what you want about OP but at least his teams were fun to watch and people came out.
Say what you want about Barnes but his first year putting a zero talent “slab five” in the top 25 was probably the greatest coaching effort I have ever seen. And people came out.
Don’t want them back but please can we get a coach that runs? Walk the ball up the court, pass around the perimeter until 7 on the shot clock then take a bad shot or turnover is just hard to watch on tv much less buy a ticket for.
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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BB said from his own mouth he inherited a good team and program
Feb 18, 2019, 6:11 PM
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Said it in his very first presser.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: BB said from his own mouth he inherited a good team and program
Feb 18, 2019, 7:17 PM
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Said it in his very first presser.
Did you expect him to trash the players he inherited in his first presser? Players who never won a ncaa tournament game at that point?
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Orange Blooded [4550]
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Re: BB said from his own mouth he inherited a good team and program
Feb 18, 2019, 11:52 PM
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He volunteered that statement. No one asked him about the current team at the time. He said it on his own as one of the factors why he wanted the job. He stated he wanted the job because it wasn’t a rebuild project.
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All-In [43989]
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I’m not really sure why you are rehashing this
Feb 18, 2019, 8:03 PM
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because it has nothing to do woth where are right now. This year’s team is directly a result of a combination of the coach, his staff, the administration, and the fans.
Purnell did some great things for Clemson. He’s a great program builder, and as we saw, his teams were exciting to watch. His full court press resulted in some great steals and dunks. It also helped us make up for talent deficiencies - to a point.
Where OP’s system failed was when we played a talented team with good guard play, which resulted in our press being broken and a lot of easy baskets for the other team. It also failed when we were required to run a half court offense. Under OP, we didn’t have one.
I don’t feel that OP developed players well, as evidenced by the only one of his recruits at Clemson making it to the NBA. I also don’t feel that his style was conducive to building a winner in postseason play. We all know about his winless record in the NCAA Tournament.
Purnell didn’t recruit that well. He had one class ranked in the top 30 - his 2009 class ranked #15. That included Milton Jennings, Noel Johnson, Devin Booker, and Donte Hill. That was probably the most overrated class we ever signed. None of those guys turned out to be much. Booker was decent at times, but inconsitent.
I still contend that Purnell’s otherwise lackluster recruiting his final few years here was the main reason he left. He knew we weren’t going to maintain our NCAA Tournament streak after 2010-2011, and he left while he was a hot commodity. The younger players he left behind weren’t awful, but they were not 4 or 5 star players to build a winning program around.
There were also a lot of issues behind the scenes with our program that Brad has had to spend a lot of time fixing - issues that Brad had no knowledge of when he took the job. I’ll just leave it at that. Brad deserves some grace as a result, which is why I view him as more like being in his 3rd or 4th year rather than his 9th.
Brad does need to recruit better. I am encouraged by our #34 ranked 2019 class. Despite it being his best class so far, I also believe that this is an underrated class that will exceed expectations. I believe next year’s will be at least as good. The facilities are helping.
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All-In [38422]
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Re: This notion Judge Keller keeps pitching that OP left BB
Feb 18, 2019, 8:07 PM
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It wasn't an ideal situation but the cupboards weren't bare . The defections hurt more than anything because depthwise we just didn't have it.
I think OP leavong hurt anyone who was gonna be hired , and I think Brownell has done ok . Not spectacular , but ok .
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