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Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.
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Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 7:49 AM

I'm sorry to say I didn't know that until I woke up this morning. That's unfortunate because I'd have slept another two hours had I known that before going to bed.

I just want the libs to know that I would have had much better dreams had I known your dream was being crushed.

#coldmofo


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 8:09 AM

Endangering access to healthcare for millions #winning

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No..just endangering access to healthcare INSURANCE...***


Dec 15, 2018, 8:43 AM



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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 8:51 AM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

Currently right at 4 million have signed up, less than 2% of the population . While one may think upending a system for that number is morally correct I would argue that it was folly.

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Alnost 12 million people are in marketplace


Dec 16, 2018, 12:14 AM

That’s a HUGE number. Equivalent to the entire state of Ohio or Pennsylvania.

Even if we used your 2% number, that’s the equivalent of all South Carolinians.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/04/03/health/obamacare-enrollment-insurance-trump.amp.html

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So we broke healthcare for 150 million people


Dec 16, 2018, 10:36 PM

to fix it for 12 million?

That makes perfect sense.

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How was it broken for 150million?***


Dec 17, 2018, 12:30 AM



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Its certainly not that same coverage I had 5 years ago.


Dec 17, 2018, 9:48 AM

I doubt I could even buy that any longer, and its sure not that same price.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 8:24 AM

The makeup of the high court hasn't changed relative to the ACA decision.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 8:58 AM

Once again you are reading minds. Who is to say whether Roberts will vote the same this time. Deal in realities and maybe we can talk. Universal health care can be done, it will be very expensive and you just may not like the taxes required. Also one must consider that you will have to fund Med School tuition as the caps on doctor payments are not going to be high enough for them to service debt and live.

Simple math shows that in a nation of 340 million all must pay in to the system and it will require several forms of taxation just as the EU employs. First off there will be a need to raise payroll taxes by a minimum of 10% on both the employee and employers, then a VAT on all goods and services purchased. Might even need to toss in a gas tax along the EU lines, you do know that is why gas costs $5-$7.50(France) per gallon right?

If in the USA we raised the gas tax by $1 per gallon it would entitle all citizens right at $30 per month in free health care. Not much huh? While many ideas may sound noble or morally correct I have yet seen any supporter actually put down on paper the way to pay for it.

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TigerJuanDad is on fire!!***


Dec 15, 2018, 9:38 AM



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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 10:00 AM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

You think a direct quote is reading minds and you have benga in your corner.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:08 AM

At least you are consistent, consistently wrong but at least you can hold dear to that truth. Can you read Roberts mind and see how he will vote if it reaches SCOTUS? How the Court is seated may not be meaningful as to how it voted last time. If you cannot grasp that fact, given the mental gymnastics on Roberts part last time I do feel badly for you.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 5:20 PM

I never said what Roberts would do. You wrote all that out and you can't even read?

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 7:53 PM

Quote- The make up of the high court has not changed since the ACA decision. Roberts was the vote that allowed it, Scalia is gone but replaced by Gourish, now with BK on the bench it is back on Roberts as the swing vote. What else could you possibly mean by that post?

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 16, 2018, 6:35 AM

That it should not be assumed that the ACA would fail at the SCOTUS simply because it leans more conservative now.

How you drew anything else from that is mind-boggling. I never even hinted at how I thought the court would rule, if they ever do.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:48 PM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

CU17- I am assuming the CU17 refers to your graduation year or maybe your entrance year, correct? If so I will be a bit easier on you as you are far too young to even know anything about which you speak. My own son was similar but as I told him then, just wait until you are paying the bills. Thing is since leaving Clemson and UGA Law School those liberal ideas are dying from a thousand cuts currently as he is seeing the light. TIme and knowledge gained by years in the real world does affect how one views things especially as the gvot. digs in to that wallet! Currently he resides just left of center, I can live with that as most of the US is 10% of dead nut center anyway. Myself, I am a fiscal conservative but socially liberal. My wallet votes though and that is never up for discussion .

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As wordy as you are, you’re consistently off base


Dec 15, 2018, 2:43 PM

with your premises. Take a day off.

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Re: As wordy as you are, you’re consistently off base


Dec 15, 2018, 2:49 PM

Coming from you I’ll pass on any advice dispensed in a post written by you. Deluded and broke is not someone to emulate.

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Calling someone deluded while in the same thread


Dec 15, 2018, 2:59 PM

claiming superior intelligence, saying you make a lot of money, and that you're older and wiser. You're full of ####.

You should realize that the more you know, the less you know and shut the #### up.

You've been banned from this site before, that much is obvious. Go #### yourself.

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Re: Calling someone deluded while in the same thread


Dec 15, 2018, 3:17 PM

Wrong on all counts skippy! I only claimed to be smarter than Balm, not overall superiority. Old age and experience( toss in treachery ) beats youth and zeal. Nah nana a booboo I will not shut the #### up and there is little you can do about it. Just one more fact.

As to being full of ####, your lack of any coherent reply on my post to CU17 that started this speaks volumes on exactly whom is full of dookie. Think that one over, that is if that is not too hard for you.


I also have NEVER been banned, so once again you would be wrong Bobby! As to ##### myself, seems I hit a bit too close to home for your little feelings. You have yourself a great day Bobby, living rent free in your little head is priceless. It is painfully obvious since you replied rather quickly and with such colorful language

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Your response to CU17 was nothing more than blathering.


Dec 15, 2018, 3:24 PM

There was no meat to reply to, same as with 90% of your other posts which are nothing more than conjecture with flawed premises summing to a flawed conclusion that's detached from pragmatic reality.

I will enjoy my day. Just wanted to drop in and call you an ####### in a few posts, not the 60+ you've #### out in the past hour.

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Re: Your response to CU17 was nothing more than blathering.


Dec 15, 2018, 3:41 PM

What ever makes you feel better about yourself, hope it helped. Hope all your #### soothed your pain, made me laugh. Not with you though just to clarify.

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Re: Your response to CU17 was nothing more than blathering.


Dec 15, 2018, 3:45 PM

Plus it is raining and cold out today. Unable to play golf, put the kayaks or JetSki’s in the water so getting you all worked up gives me a chuckle.

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Re: Your response to CU17 was nothing more than blathering.


Dec 17, 2018, 9:27 AM [ in reply to Your response to CU17 was nothing more than blathering. ]

You're projecting your own failures.


If something he stated was wrong, identify the incorrect statement and provide a counter argument supported by facts.


Otherwise, you're just a pretentious idiot who can use big words and fancy grammar to try and appear intelligent to stroke your own ignorant ego.

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Little Robertn's guts..


Dec 18, 2018, 9:50 PM

are in a full twist mode by now.  Elijer's/American Standard's/Bemis' are gonna get beat tohell tonight!"

-Doc 

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


Oh my..look who is falling apart


Dec 18, 2018, 9:47 PM [ in reply to Calling someone deluded while in the same thread ]

He is on you like a black man on an ugly white woman.

-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 5:22 PM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

I was born on the 17th day of my birth month, almost 40 years ago. Your assuming sure is making you look stupid.

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actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 10:50 AM

Bill.

which is rather pointless because trump already got rid of the mandate through executive order.

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Way to cherry pick. While what you said about the mandate


Dec 15, 2018, 11:04 AM

is true, the judge also said "that the rest of the law therefore cannot stand".

Thanks though, Mr. misrepresenting.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/14/politics/texas-aca-lawsuit/index.html

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Re: Way to cherry pick. While what you said about the mandate


Dec 15, 2018, 11:06 AM

I am shocked 1 judge in texas feels this way. Let's hope this gets kicked up to the SCOTUS and Kavanaugh is the deciding vote that kills the entire legislation, including the coverage pre existing conditions.

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Re: Way to cherry pick. While what you said about the mandate


Dec 15, 2018, 11:11 AM

What you fail to understand is the ACA was written to fail. Yes it was , even the guys that wrote it have said this to be true. It was a backdoor attempt at single payer, once ACA failed and HillDawg was sitting in the WH it was the plan. Somehow that all went kerplunk .

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You're such a stick in the mud with all your facts and truth


Dec 15, 2018, 11:27 AM [ in reply to Way to cherry pick. While what you said about the mandate ]

I bet you spoil a good party. :)

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Re: You're such a stick in the mud with all your facts and truth


Dec 15, 2018, 12:08 PM

I know, right!!! It is enjoyable to get libs to squirm when pressed for the actual ways to pay for said dreams. Usually get a bunch of silence.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:04 AM [ in reply to actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire ]

Poor Balm, he still does not grasp the mandate was how it would be funded. You know, that tricky part of getting enough healthy people enrolled to offset the cost of the really expensive to insure( most of whom got it for free). Once again the devil is in the details and unfortunately you are just not bright enough to get the big picture. . Seems you are a PIP kinda guy.

Balm, how are WE gonna pay for free health care? Hint, nothing is free and you should be old enough or at least somewhat educated enough to grasp someone must always pick up the tab. So please do tell just how it will be paid for that does not burn down society. Hint, cast an eye towards France currently but a better example is the go to of Venuzuela.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:08 AM

gee tiger1dad, you are so smart. and I see you taking personal pleasure in this, which is sad, and disgusting.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:13 AM

How we gonna pay for it Balm.? Simple question because I know you have not a clue. Tax the other guy right? I can be for it if done in a way that all take a hit, even your beloved poor folks. Yes, they too will need to pay for that benefit. VAT on all item and serives purchased no opt outs for income levels.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:20 AM

government should never have to step in, but this was a clear case oversight was needed. Our free market health care system is a disaster, and republicans own it now.

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Yet, you deflected and failed to answer his question***


Dec 15, 2018, 11:24 AM



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Re: Yet, you deflected and failed to answer his question***


Dec 15, 2018, 11:28 AM

we all pay for it, that was the intent of the ACA It spreads the oain a few people are feeling across the entire risk pool. But some people are greedy and think sick and poor people do not deserve health care. at least admit that.

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Re: Yet, you deflected and failed to answer his question***


Dec 15, 2018, 11:53 AM

No Balm, it was designed to spread the pain upon allin the ACA plans to cover the very sick. Everyone is entitled to whatever care their insurance pays or the system of Charity Hospitals provides. It was never designed for those with private insurance to cover that is where you fail again. ACA was a pool of uninsured/under insured that were to be subsidized by the healthy in the ACA pool, nothing more or less. My insurance has not went up, not once due to the ACA. Then again I do have a Platinum policy from my employer that I retired from and can keep until the day I die.

It has nothing to do with greed silly Balm, I have dutifully paid all my required taxes Federal and State over the years .I received little to nothing for those very high taxes and enough is enough. You may think I have enough but that is not for you to deceide and that is why I am a fiscal conservative. I earned it, it is mine and not yours. I signed up to take care of me and mine. I only ask you do the same. Are you man enough for the job?

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Re: Yet, you deflected and failed to answer his question***


Dec 17, 2018, 9:30 AM [ in reply to Re: Yet, you deflected and failed to answer his question*** ]

Your own words about "people being greedy" are the EXACT reason why the ACA or M4A should be rejected.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:14 AM [ in reply to Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire ]

And yes, I am smarter than you by a bunch. That in and of itself though is not much to brag on in truth.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:23 AM

this says so much about you.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:30 AM

Balm, it is just a fact. You still have not answered my question and you only attempt to deflect . See, given a chance to post something relevent you went off course, thus proving my point . Now Balm, where are you going to get the money to pay for Universal Health Care?

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:32 AM

facts are driven by data, not your personal feelings.

I am beginning to think that you are just full of yourself. ;)

enjoy your weekend.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:39 AM

Since you still cannot post a reply on how to pay for it I would say I am entitled to my opinion on being smarter than you Balm. See ,, when you offer up NOTHING it does tend to make you look a tad ignorant. I always enjoy my days, be they work days or weekends. See, being successful allows for that feeling.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:43 AM [ in reply to Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire ]

You were admittedly making some good points, but once someone starts saying they're smarter than someone else on a message board I immediately disregard everything they've said.

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Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire


Dec 15, 2018, 11:54 AM

That is fine but in speaking of Balm I feel safe in my opinion.

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I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:29 AM [ in reply to Re: actually he found the mandate unconstitutional, not the entire ]

If Obama is for it I'm against it. It's that ####### simple, balm. I'm as much in love with O and you are with Trump.

You can thank Obama for giving us Trump, btw.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:30 AM

so you enjoy a political victory that causes people harm? I just want to make sure I have this straight.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:35 AM

Hmmm, less than 2% of the population has enrolled in the ACA as of today. Some would say the very high ACA rates, when not getting a subsidy, along with the insane deductibles are causing people WAY more harm. You do have that straight right?

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That's relative to who the political victory is harming.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:55 PM [ in reply to Re: I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

The harm of Obamacare is the working class who are making too much to get free heathcare because they work. Obama said it best 'Let's just spread the wealth around...' That's immoral to take from the working class and give to the worthless class, imo.

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Re: That's relative to who the political victory is harming.


Dec 15, 2018, 1:44 PM

"Worthless class?" Wow, you need to do some self-reflection if that's how you actually think of the poor.

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Re: That's relative to who the political victory is harming.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:03 PM

Considering our poor are actually wealthy in regards to a world view maybe you need some reflection. Even with all the trillions spent we have more folks on assistance than ever before, obviously tossing money at it does not work. Right? That worthless class he speaks of is only good at one thing, having more kids to bring in to that cycle of poverty. Maybe a zero tolerance policy on child bearing while on welfare would be a start?

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Re: That's relative to who the political victory is harming.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:16 PM

Care to cite the statistics backing up your post?

I'll also add that considering any human being worthless is not only morally bankrupt, as deweather said, it's a despicable mindset to have.

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Re: That's relative to who the political victory is harming.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:35 PM

While you may find it to be morally bankrupt more people actually hold the view that some folks are indeed worthless. Just because one breathes does not mean they hold any value to society. In fact they can be better viewed as a detriment to society by having kids that end up in poverty and by increased crime rates.

All one needs to do is Google World Wealth to find that our poor fall in to a world wealthy when factoring in all the cost of benefits received. I find people learn better if they actually put in some effort to gain information. So in short look it up yourself.

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doubling down on the moral bankrupt argument


Dec 15, 2018, 3:08 PM

bold choice

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Re: doubling down on the moral bankrupt argument


Dec 15, 2018, 4:09 PM

In for a penny in for a pound. Sometimes one must follow a contrarian view and there are times it is proven to be correct. You feel all folks have worth, that is fine but it is not an opinion I find holds water. To make me or others pay for those folks is not what I signed up for in life. You are free to donate anything you wish to help them though, let me know how it works out for you.

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A person's "worth" being based on their financial standing


Dec 15, 2018, 4:21 PM

isn't just contrarian, it's inhuman.

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Re: A person's "worth" being based on their financial standing


Dec 15, 2018, 5:02 PM

Your opinion but statistically the poor contribute little to nothing to the greater good of society. They do contribute more than their fair share to crime though . They also are very good at producing kids to start the cycle of poverty all over again, just saying statistics prove this out. See in truth you find being human to be special or worthy of something simply for existing. I disagree with that assumption, my opinion. Just a hint, not a thing you could possibly say will change that opinion either.

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You gonna be visited by three ghosts this Xmas***


Dec 15, 2018, 8:12 PM



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Re: doubling down on the moral bankrupt argument


Dec 17, 2018, 9:36 AM [ in reply to doubling down on the moral bankrupt argument ]

Morality is irrelevant here. Morality is also subjective.


For some, morality means forcing successful people to pay higher taxes and fees to subsidize government welfare programs for poor people.

For other, morality means reducing the size of government and financial tax burdens on citizens to make sure we can ensure economic growth to make the overall country wealthier.


Regardless, its pretty dumb to argue "morality" when it doesnt apply here, at all. It is also intangible and cannot be itemized or legislated.

However, we can analyze the effects of Universal Health Care and the ACA, we can track its impact in many many different measurable variables, including its costs. We can see how financially burdensome it is and how it is actually harmful to the financial and economic health of the country, businesses, and individuals. We can actually analyze how good it is vs how bad it is, and overall, it is bad. Its a financial failure, it doesnt work, it doesnt provide the necessary levels of care at the funding it receives, and it is unconstitutional.


With that said, it has no business existing.

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"worthless class"? Wow, what a morally bankrupt thing to say***


Dec 15, 2018, 1:57 PM [ in reply to That's relative to who the political victory is harming. ]



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It smells a lot like corny mcpoo in here***


Dec 15, 2018, 5:13 PM



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Re: It smells a lot like corny mcpoo in here***


Dec 15, 2018, 5:26 PM

Man, I sure wish I could post meaty ideas such as this gem. Bobby is a beautiful mind I tell you. Such deep, meaningful words to hang your hat on. Maybe you could put them all in a life changing pamphlet, title it Bobby’s Meaty Thoughts. MIGHT I suggest it be in roll form on segmented soft paper?

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You have no idea what you’re talking about.


Dec 15, 2018, 5:32 PM

Probably not corny though. Seems more like



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Re: You have no idea what you’re talking about.


Dec 15, 2018, 5:46 PM

And there are the potatoes to go with the meat, true genius I tell you. Bobby, I bow to your thought provoking well thought out posts. Simply pure gold. I wait on your next gem with anticipation.

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You’re out of your element.***


Dec 15, 2018, 6:00 PM



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Re: You’re out of your element.***


Dec 15, 2018, 6:21 PM

And there it is, I am so inspired in your meaty brilliance. Such depth to get in to on this one, Bobby you are special. So do tell Bobby, how am I out of my element? I await something of utter meaty brilliance from you to put me in my place.

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You’re coming off like a fraud. You keep claiming success


Dec 15, 2018, 6:31 PM

and advocating hairbrained policies like flat taxes.

You miss jokes and make false assumptions. You throw a nickname on me and think it’s clever? You’re a ####### moron with a keyboard.

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Re: You’re coming off like a fraud. You keep claiming success


Dec 15, 2018, 7:13 PM

Awww Bobby, I expected so much more than that little drivel shart of a post. Flat taxes? Hmm, nope my preference is a VAT point of sale tax. So again you are wrong, do you understand consumption taxes Bobby? While the rates would be the same what people pay would be vastly different, here I will make it very simple for you so you can grasp it. Say a VAT of 10% on a car purchase for example:
$10K CAR= $1K TAX
$40K CAR=$4K TAX
$100K CAR= $10K TAX.
Plus it captures the huge shadow cash economy that currently goes untaxed at a Federal/State level.

No Bobby( actually short for Robert, are you unaware of that?) you replied that my post lacked any meat for you to respond to but in fact you were not intending anything except the little shart you posted. So as you post I do look for your meaty observations .

Stop crying like a girl, be a liberal but at least post something worthy to discuss. I would be more than willing to discuss policy on social programs, the inherent disadvantages of spending in public schools, taxes, criminal sentencing based upon race or gender, saving Medicare and SSI. Toss in defense spending too, also any social policy such as weed, abortion remains legal or legalized. You may actually be surprised.

I openly admit I can be a Richard when posts such as yours appear that are snarky but a maroon I am not.

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Re: You’re coming off like a fraud. You keep claiming success


Dec 17, 2018, 9:37 AM [ in reply to You’re coming off like a fraud. You keep claiming success ]

Why is a flat tax hairbrained? Why wouldnt simplifying the tax system be better?

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:33 AM [ in reply to I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

Not BHO from my perspective but running the only person who could have possibly lost to Trump. HillDawg is/was universally disliked by a large enough margin to win the Electorial College. 1988 in fairness BHO was just left of center and compared to the new wave DEMS like the girl from NY, BHO could be mistaken for a conservative.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 11:50 AM [ in reply to I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

Obama cut oil imports by 60 percent while increasing American's oil production by 88 percent (despite that fact that some outlets accuse him of being anti-fossil fuels). Since the Obama administration increased fracking which in turn reducted the price of oil does that mean you are opposed to cheaper gas prices?

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:00 PM

Well since I have been in the oil industy my entire working life I can only say this is incorrect. BHO did not cut any oil imports and is no friend of fracking. While fracking has kept on lid on oil prices since OPEC cannot just jack them up as fracking can replace oil at levels ranging from $28 to $55 a barrel in production costs BHO had no hand in this. KSA production costs are right at $8 a barrel but since they run the enitre nation of the profits they are not doing very well as it is estimated they need $85 to break even given costs to run the country.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:04 PM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2016/01/15/president-obamas-petroleum-legacy/#26e362bec10f

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:07 PM [ in reply to Re: I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

Net oil imports in 2008 were 11.1 million barrels per day.
In 2015 they were 4.7 million barrels per day.


There's no way to view this as anything other than a reduction in net imports.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:09 PM

For the record, I was just giving you a hard time because of your earlier comment. I don't actually think that Obama supported fracking.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:16 PM [ in reply to Re: I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

Once again not from BHO or any policies he established. USA fracking has undergone rapid advances and it has allowed the increased production here at home. Not by BHO policies but the free market system and their desire to make a profit.. In 2014 the KSA tried to kill frackers by lower prices to $32 a barrel, the frackers had hedged the price of oil and those bets allowed them to survive until the KSA abandoned low pricies , some would say they gave up too soon as the frackers were on their knees. He was just in office as the technology came on line to be able to get to that oil in a manner that made money. No where in that article is there any mention of one single policy he advanced to help the oil/gas industry and that would have been a falsehood.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:19 PM

Key statement is POLICY from BHO. None were enacted nor any concessions made to USA oil and gas producers. Just the opposite in fact so in truth this expansion of oil production was done in spite of BHO, amazing what capitalism can do when there is money to be made. Sure wish they would get to fracking the mineral rights in Pa. that we own, while I am conflicted on this practice somebody is gonna make bank on it so it might as well be me.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:24 PM

I wasn't being serious about Obama being pro-fracking. I was just messing you about your comment basically saying that anything Obama did is automatically bad because he did it. I know that isn't exactly what you said, but I'm just taking it to its logical conclusion.


On a serious note, best of luck in potentially finding someone to develop the mineral rights to the land you own.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:25 PM

Oh wait, that wasn't even you that made that comment. I'm gonna have to update my payment info so I can get my 'R' back to edit my comments.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:36 PM

Okay, since I actually argued BHO was not all that bad and was just left of center we are cool. I have never fallen in to the side of BHO was evil, he was never as bad nor as good as the opposing sides have claimed. Compared to our current POTUS , well it would not be so bad to have him back. Personally I am hoping Mitt makes another run, you know the guy the DEMS made out to be the second coming of Satan?

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:45 PM

That pretty much sums up exactly how I feel. I completely disagree with the extremists who allege that Obama was a secret Muslim communist for obvious reasons. He certainly had his flaws, the NSA spying being the biggest IMO, but he wasn't akin to the anti-Christ by any means.

I've always been a right leaning moderate, but some of the Trumpists have accused me of being some sort of socialist since I often criticize Trump. I 100 percent agree that a slightly right of center GOP President would be good for the country. I personally would prefer John Kasich, but Mitt would also be a huge improvement.


Unfortunately, it appears that we are going to go far left in 2020 because of how scandal plagued the Trump administration has been.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:54 PM

I am actual socially liberal on most items but vote my fiscal conservative leanings. Once the govt. enacts a tax/taxes it is very hard to get them back. Weed,fine. Abortion,fine. Equal rights for all including the alphabet folks, fine. Just do not think me being fine means you get to tax me for their choices in life.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 12:58 PM

Wow, once again I completely agree. Socially, I've always been as much libertarian as anything—live and let live as long as you aren't hurting anyone else. I'm not a deficit hawk in that I don't believe we should ever run a deficit, but I don't believe it should be the norm.

As far as taxes, I think the current personal brackets are good where they're at, but I do think that we need to eliminate corporate tax subsidies and we probably should have set the corporate rate somewhere in the 25-27 percent range as opposed to 21 percent. Also, I think we should raise the capital gains tax to be in line with income tax at least until we get our deficit under control.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:15 PM

Me, I would favor NO income based taxes at all. It would all be point of sale taxes on goods and services. It gets rid of the need to file, eliminates most of the IRS and captures taxes on all income. Even those of the cash basis and illegal means. It is fair, not maybe in the progressive line of thought but in a true definition of fair.

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Re: I'm taking pleasure in it.


Dec 17, 2018, 9:41 AM [ in reply to Re: I'm taking pleasure in it. ]

That is incorrect. Obama reduced US oil production to the lowest levels we had seen in decades. Fracking only increased temporarily due to the Obama administration's hard opposition to drilling off shore. Once fracking got up and running, Obama started cracking down on that as well. In fact, out dependency on Iranian oil doubled under Obama.

Trump has reversed that.


However, I prefer Obama's oil strategy over Trump's. Obama shut down lots of U.S. oil production and increased dependency on off shore oil from HOSTILE nations. I think the strategy was "Drain every one else dry now, so in the future the U.S. is the only one left with oil." Likewise, if the U.S. can reach into Venezuela and rebuild that disaster successfully, than we could have a solid foundation in the future if an oil crisis occurs.

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It's a good thing only libtards have pre-existing conditions


Dec 15, 2018, 11:50 AM

or this could have a significant impact on the 2020 elections, especially when people come to realize that it's the ACA also and not just Obamacare that's in jeopardy.

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Re: It's a good thing only libtards have pre-existing conditions


Dec 15, 2018, 12:20 PM

ACA and ObamaCare are one and the same. If you do not understand that maybe one should not be voting anyway.

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whoosh***


Dec 15, 2018, 2:08 PM



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Dependent coverage until 26 was a good thing when ...


Dec 15, 2018, 12:23 PM [ in reply to It's a good thing only libtards have pre-existing conditions ]

My kids went through college and Grad school.

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Re: Dependent coverage until 26 was a good thing when ...


Dec 15, 2018, 12:39 PM

Parts of the ACA can be viewed as a good thing. That is one of them, as long as the kids are in School it is good. Used it myself, unfortunelately that provision did not extend to retireee coverages and was cut off at 25. So I paid for a private policy until he graduated and was covered from a Comapny policy for 3 moths after Law School. The entirety of the ACA is not bad but it is how it was implemented and paid for that was not done well.

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Pre-existing conditions makes no sense to anyone.


Dec 15, 2018, 1:44 PM [ in reply to It's a good thing only libtards have pre-existing conditions ]

Nothing is free. When someone refuses to pay for insurance until after they need medical care someone will pay for their obstinate behavior. Imo, it should be the one who is obstinate. Jack up their insurance premiums. It's all just rewarding bad behavior and violates economic principle.

Where is the incentive to buy insurance before you need it?

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Re: Pre-existing conditions makes no sense to anyone.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:10 PM

You are confusing what the clause means in truth. If one is insured on a policy and comes down with an illness they are covered while on that policy. Say you lose the job/policy , you get new employment and coverage only to have them say you are covered except for that X diagnosis. That is what it changed, nothing more or less and in truth it should be Law. The mandate was what was supposed to eliminate what your describe.

Prior to this being LAW if one lost coverage and had to get new coverage they were either denied or screwed.

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OR insurers could simply create new cheaper programs


Dec 15, 2018, 5:28 PM

for a healthier base while simultaneously ramping up costs on the older programs for those who 'elected' to stay - those with serious medical issues that would of course be denied entry into the new affordable programs because of their health status.

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Re: OR insurers could simply create new cheaper programs


Dec 15, 2018, 7:59 PM

So back to what we had before ACA/ ObamaCare? That is exactly what was in place before the mandates for all inclusive policies. Might as well scrap it all, now there are some items worth keeping though. Kids till 26 and Pre Existing conditions are 2.

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Kids on your plan until 26 was ironic, huh?


Dec 17, 2018, 5:14 PM

ACA was supposed to lower our insurance costs, but the healthiest (the young) weren't even paying for insurance--their parents were.

So for something that was supposed to lower our insurance, and what could have been a revenue base was just tacked on to an already expensive insurance premium.

Smart. And a lie.

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It sure will.


Dec 16, 2018, 10:08 AM [ in reply to It's a good thing only libtards have pre-existing conditions ]

If congress doesn't come up with something which satisfies the POTUS and both parties congress will face the nation.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 1:36 PM

I can feel the Christian love emanating from this post. You sound a lot more like a Pharisee than a follower of Jesus.

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Who died and made you God?***


Dec 15, 2018, 1:45 PM



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Re: Who died and made you God?***


Dec 15, 2018, 1:50 PM

I call it like I see it. You're the exact type of person Jesus preached against in the gospels.

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Am I going to helll, religious brother?***


Dec 15, 2018, 3:06 PM



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Re: Am I going to helll, religious brother?***


Dec 16, 2018, 2:35 AM

Hell doesn't exist. But if it did, you'd have to ask the god you supposedly worship about that. He had a lot to say about people like you in Matthew 23.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 17, 2018, 9:46 AM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

Funny, you are the first person I have seen try to throw religion into this.


Why is that? Why do Republicans operate solely on the matter at hand? I have yet to see any Republican try to play the religion card for at least 7 years.


No one is playing the "this is what God wants" BS card. This isnt about religious views or subjective morality. Its literally just an argument about dollars and cents.

The ACA is financially stupid. It has proven to be a terrible, expensive, an inefficient system. It needs to go.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:13 PM

Reply to the original message from 1988:

If the judge's ruling stands, that will put the final nail in the coffin for the GOPers holding the Senate in 2020. And, TheRump will be out then, too.

Although the judge's ruling will likely be over-turned in the Supreme Court.

If not:
Prepare yourself for Bernie's "one-payer" system in 2021. And a huge tax increase on the rich to pay for it. (You will end-up hating that conservative judge in north Texas.) Sometimes, you need to leave things along -- although I'm sure that killing the major bill of that black president seems like a "win" now.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 2:21 PM

You assume the rich alone can foot the bill, that would be wrong on all levels. Like most clueless folks you assume someone else will pay for you. It will take historic tax increases on ALL people, same as the EU implements, VAT,fees,income tax with little exclusions and do not forget those insane gas taxes. Now factor in one simple fact, the rich can and will leave. So then you move down to redefine the term rich, something libs do with great frequency.

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well, you just moved the poor up to "wealthy"


Dec 15, 2018, 2:31 PM

so it balances itself out I guess.

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Re: well, you just moved the poor up to "wealthy"


Dec 15, 2018, 2:41 PM

Just a fact when one runs out of rich to tax the level or bar gets moved. World view on what is poor, me thinks you need a class in comprehension next. In my world travels I have seen poor folks, we do not have them here outside of the homeless class( statistically irrelevant) and by choice. Yes choice as they do qualify for govt. benefits.

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I understood what you meant, and my statement still stands


Dec 15, 2018, 2:56 PM

thank you for reiterating it though.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 3:16 PM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

Response to Tiger1Dad:
No, I don't assume that someone else will pay my way. (Actually, I am quite prosperous. My son is a lawyer, too.) I have never felt bad about paying my fair share of taxes, while living in the most prosperous country in the world. I was a 1%er b4 I retired, and my savings and investments will not require you to pay for my healthcare.
But, I understand that I had advantages of family and health that others do not have. And, I feel the wealthy should pay for the healthcare of the poor.
Yes, actually, raising taxes significantly on the top 1%, and reducing waste in Defense Spending, would pay for the "one-payer" health system.

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Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional.


Dec 15, 2018, 3:38 PM

Actually I am in the same relative position in life but have actually done the math on paying for it. The bill comes in at $2 Trillion plus per year effectively doubling current revenue generated in taxes. The rates to only have the ‘rich” pay the bill equates to criminal theft , that is my opinion. If the system is set up for Universal Health care and all pay in as the EU does then fine. Till then not for it in any way because next it will be something else for free as they cast their eyes upon those that did well in life. It is always easy to vote for free stuff when one has little to no skin in the game.

Defense spending is but one way the USA remains the World Reserve Currency, slashing it by over 50% would put that in jeopardy. We could not afford the hit on financing our debt if we were to lose that status. That is something to ponder, while there is no way to know if it would occur the outcome of servicing interest on that $21 trillion is not to be dismissed.

While you can freely donate any monies you deem in excess of your needs, to have it taken by force of law is a totally different ball game. That is one I choose to not play.

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I actually believe heathcare should be individually funded


Dec 16, 2018, 11:33 PM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

No government laws. If you wanna spend your money on 3 TVs, 5 Games Platforms and two cartons of cigs/mo..haveanut. Don't bitchif you can't afford to buy your own healthcare.

-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin


Dec 15, 2018, 3:11 PM [ in reply to Re: Well, a federal judge found Obamacare unconstitutional. ]

Do you know how foolish you look when you make those outrageous claims?

For anyone not foolish enough to make outrageous claims...now congress has to work together to
legislate a bill which will suit almost all of America and not just the dem party. If they don't it won't be Trump's fault because it will never hit his desk for consideration. A lot of people will exit DC but none of them are named Trump.

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Re: I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin


Dec 15, 2018, 3:26 PM

I wasn't aware there was a prison in DC. Thx for enlightening me on that.
Even Senator Cruz said that the president is not above the law. And, a felony is a felony.

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Re: I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin


Dec 15, 2018, 4:00 PM

In reality most all past campaign finance issues have been dealt with by way of fines. Until it can be proved it was done to sway the election it is open as to whether it becomes a felony. That is a whole bunch of grey to sift through to arrive at that legal point.

What is swaying an election? Did Trump even think he would win? By all accounts he was actually surprised that he had won. Heck most speeches on the trail with wild promises could be swayin g the election if said knowing the promises would never see the light of day. Was he protecting his family and prenup instead of swaying voters? With the tapes out there too? His history of behavior? Like I said lots of grey. Consider the Congressional slush fund for paying off similar claims too?

Not saying it will not happen but I would not put money on it either.

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I read a Newsweek article in a mag which came to my house...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:31 PM

a few days ago. The writer said dems should lower their expectations. This is going to be hilarious when Pelosi refuses to impeach Trump and the left wing goes batchit crazy.

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Re: I read a Newsweek article in a mag which came to my house...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:48 PM

I will stay away from bridges and tall buildings that day for sure. It will be raining libs, some with silly pink hats.

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I don't know what you're talking about so that makes...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:25 PM [ in reply to Re: I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin ]

two of us, you and me.

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Re: I don't know what you're talking about so that makes...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:30 PM

I see what you did there.

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Re: I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin


Dec 17, 2018, 9:49 AM [ in reply to Re: I thought Flynn's arrest was the final nail in Trump's cofin ]

Obama committed one of the most extensive cases of campaign finance fraud in U.S. history, and he was slammed with the largest fine EVER for violating campaign finance laws.


Your point?

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I think most folks here know so I'm focusing on those who...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:34 PM

don't. I consider you all part of the Clemson family. Families play rough but I want you guys to know that even though I seem to harbor hate I see politics as a game, entertainment and just something to occupy an old man when I can't get outside and work on my car.

I love you guys even though I say things to get under your skin as I did in the original post. Now tell hoppercat not to send me to helll. Please.

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Hells not real so you’re good. Be a #### if you want.***


Dec 15, 2018, 5:37 PM



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Look, there's a lot of people who don't know...


Dec 15, 2018, 5:55 PM

their father but I'm not one of them. I talk to my Father God everyday in fellowship, instruction and truth. You can sell your goods somewhere else.

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You’re talking to yourself***


Dec 15, 2018, 5:56 PM



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Re: Look, there's a lot of people who don't know...


Dec 15, 2018, 6:24 PM [ in reply to Look, there's a lot of people who don't know... ]

Just another meaty gem of a post from Bobby, he sure is special, Bless His Heart.

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You might want to listen harder


Dec 15, 2018, 8:18 PM [ in reply to Look, there's a lot of people who don't know... ]

I doubt He ever told you the poor should be considered the "worthless class."

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I doubt you have any clue what the Bible says.


Dec 16, 2018, 9:50 AM

Before I list the verses let me set you straight on one thing here. It's called context. If you'll review the post which you reference 'worthless class,' you'll see that their was an elementary 'compare and contrast,' within that very sentence. Oh, the opposite of poor is rich, it not the working class.

Let's review the sentence to make sure everyone who reads this post can understand the context. I added bold so you wouldn't miss the major clues to the context. I wrote...

"The harm of Obamacare is the working class who are making too much to get free heathcare because they work. Obama said it best 'Let's just spread the wealth around...' That's immoral to take from the working class and give to the worthless class, imo.

Clearly working class and worthless class is radically different in the context of those statements. How you construed it to mean all the 'poor,' is some serious mental athletic achievement. Obviously to anyone with high school level reading comprehension working is contrasted to worthless.

Did I state that those who don't work are worthless? Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean all the poor nor does it mean children, the disabled or too old to work. All those had access to proper heath insurance before Obamacare.

Now for the meat.

2 Thessalonians 3:10 'For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

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Fair enough


Dec 16, 2018, 2:49 PM

I would then disagree that a person's worth is tied to their ability to work or not. Saying a whole group of people (that in your original statement would have included the old, children and disabled) were worthless is a very non-Christian idea. Still, I'm glad you clarified your original statement and narrowed its focus.

But in regards to Obamacare, I'm not sure who you are talking about in your example. The working poor are on medicaid - or in states that didn't expand medicaid many make too much to be on medicaid but not enough to afford an ACA plan so they have no health insurance - or they earn enough to get subsidies for Obamacare. I'm unclear as to what group of people you are referring to in regards to Obamacare. Care to clarify this?

I know how seriously you take your faith and I'm sorry for triggering you by calling that into question, but I think we do have different opinions on what God wants from all of us.

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Re: Fair enough


Dec 16, 2018, 3:39 PM

I might have been more specific. It's the carelessness of being in contempt for those who choose not to work. I appreciate that Obamacare has holes and I'm glad you pointed it out. Nothing about this is simple. Folks need care but the lazy bumbs who hang out all day and suck off society need nothing but a need to work.

My father taught me to work, be diligent to do the job and faithful to finish it. You may have heard me speak of my first paying job. In or around 1959 while I was just seven years old my dad asked me if I wanted to wash and wax his car and offered money if I would do it. I had no idea what I was getting into but I wanted the money. With a wife and three kids I needed...j/k.

First he mixed the soap and water and sent me to fetched the rag. He defined an area on the top of that 1954 Caddy and told me not to wash past that but rinse it off and come get him to look at it. This car seemed 25 ft long before I was done. Each time he'd inspect a 'clean,' spot he would point out the misses and set out another spot to wash after I went over those spots again. He also made sure I did a good job on the massive amount of chrome including the grille which had what seemed like hundreds of little squares which needed my small fingers to clean properly.

After many trips in and out of the house he decided it was clean enough to wax. The process was just as the wash cycle but the areas were smaller for the wax. In and out all day long he coached me to do it right the first time and it would be over. When he was satisfied with the wax I though I was finished.

He brought out a bar of soap looking stuff called Bonami with which to wax the chrome. Yes, that included the tiny grille grid and he wanted the corners and underside of each section to look like the massive bumpers, clean and shiny.

When it was over he handed me a five and two ones which rivaled the wage of a cotton picker for a day. I'm talking about a man who could pick 300lbs without bowls. I was stunned but when he hugged me and told me he was proud of the job I did I was 10 ft tall. I bought everything I wanted at the Franklin Five and Dime downtown. Hampton, SC. He could have done what I did with much less effort and time than spending the day fooling with a 7 yr old washing and waxing a huge tank of a car.

I'm sorry everyone doesn't have a father like him. I was grown before I realize how blessed I was. I see kids everyday who have no one in their lives to teach them how to work. Still, I am intolerable of those who refuse to try and support themselves.

I'm guessing you know enough about the Bible to know that widows and orphans are on my required assistants list. I also respect those who can't work because of injury or illness but I have no heart for the lazy who choose gov assistance rather than work. I can't help them because it enables their horrible lifestyle.

There are three, black children and their single mom who live next door to me. My son, DNL and I took the to the Spring game in 2017. We bought them all Clemson gear there at the game. We also took them to ride go carts here in Greenville. Due to my health I am no longer to attend games and children of that age exhaust me because the responsibility of keeping up with them is quite stressful. Nothing frightens me like thinking I might have to face their mother and explain an accident or incident due to my negligence. My son and DNL still try to take them places and we all attend the boys rec games as life permits. Their mother cooks at one of the local schools. She never misses a day and she sees that the kids attend school too.

I can't do much but I do what I can. If you'd like pictures of the kids I can share them but I shouldn't post them online without permission and I'd never ask a parent to allow that. Tmail?

A man is one soul, nothing less whether he works or not. I am required by my God to love him but I am not obligated to support his lifestyle if he refuses to work. When referring to worthless I spoke in contrast to working. In my mind it was clear. I apologize for not being more definite in other post.

If you want I can explain the economic situation which makes it practical for people not to work.

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I liked the story about your first job


Dec 16, 2018, 4:01 PM

and the story about your neighbors (no need for pictures, but if you want to t-mail them you may) was great too. I'm sure she is appreciative of everything you do for them and the world needs more of that, so good job.

I agree that work gives a person a feeling of accomplishment and worth, and I think most feel the same way. I think it pretty rare that a person's life situation allows for them to work but they choose not too. But maybe I'm wrong.

But as for the overall conversation surrounding Obamacare, it has little to do with those that don't work. It's mostly about establishing a baseline of what insurance companies must cover (pre-existing conditions as the main point here) and preventing people from buying insurance only when they needed it by 'mandating' that people have health insurance (this a super simplified version of Obamacare).

Again, too, I'm also not sure the issue doesn't get more confusing when you try to separate the "working class" from the "working poor" which I'd argue are often the same.

Just to be clear here, I understand the argument for irritation at those that have the capability and life situation to work but choose not to, receiving certain benefits, but I don't think that's who Obamacare covers and so I don't see where that argument can be made.

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Believe it or not this all ties into a tidy story.


Dec 16, 2018, 7:38 PM

The children's mother is a precious woman who works hard, loves and guide her children as well as possible.

Since my children's mother divorce me I have been just as poor as anyone. I refused to go to court with her because she and I had, at the time, a nine year old daughter. I am the better parent but a little girl and her mother is a relationship I would not interrupt in lieu of being the better parent. I liken that relationship to mine and my fathers.

I do not separate the working middle class from the working poor. The working poor have a greater need for assistance for quality of life and health. I do not protest our government assisting the working poor, the disabled, the widows, the women who have been deserted by the fathers of their children. This is not an all inclusive list of those who need our help and are worth to receive it. I may have others but people who won't work when work is available will never make my list.

We needed Obamacare put down and a comprehensive plan to deal with the cost of healthcare, medicine and medical testing cost. I have no idea where to start on any of those but there are people in this country who can solve these problems without crushing the average family or ignoring the worthy needy.

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That's the problem with those in power against Obamacare


Dec 16, 2018, 9:06 PM

they want to just get rid of Obamacare/ACA without having that comprehensive plan in place to take its place. However you think of Obamacare/ACA, it's a heck of a lot better than the system that was in place before it. Moving backwards is not acceptable.

I think the basic equation of healthcare is impossible to figure between the profit driven systems in place that fuel the industry and create tons of jobs and research into new and better drugs and the patient side of the equation that wants cheaper costs and better care. It's all a mess and I don't know how it can ever be truly figured out.

One thing I wish had happened was that all states expanded medicaid, it strikes me as unusually cruel to deny many people coverage just for political reasons.

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Imo, the most significant complication from solving...


Dec 17, 2018, 10:27 AM

the healthcare and health insurance is illegals. Are we to cover only citizens and leave them to continue using emergence rooms for primary care or shall we intend to cover them also? That doesn't end the issue. Shall we continue to grant amnesty to everyone who caravans to the border and crosses illegally?

How do we see this playing out if we extend such great benefits to everyone who can recite a legal response and qualify for amnesty? The question is a bit harsh but at what point is enough, enough?

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They are a part of the healthcare issue, but...


Dec 17, 2018, 2:25 PM

far from most significant. Prices are rising mostly from the aging population, lack of price competition, and lack of transparency in the application of costs.

There was a RAND study that estimated about $1 billion was spent on illegal's healthcare while these other factors were in the hundreds of billions of dollars in costs each in our healthcare.

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They aren't really the primary drivers


Dec 17, 2018, 2:46 PM [ in reply to Imo, the most significant complication from solving... ]

profit is the primary driver. For better or worse, and often for better, the incentive to make lots of money drives a lot of the innovation in health care that we enjoy, but it also exists because of the resource of insurance that allows everyone to afford it.

There is profit in keeping a woman with alzheimer's alive indefinitely so long as she, or her family, can afford it. There is profit in curing the common cold, but not as much as there is in treating it. Same with Diabetes. Same with HBP. Same with cholesterol, etc.

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Who is it better for?


Dec 17, 2018, 3:35 PM [ in reply to That's the problem with those in power against Obamacare ]

The 12-20 million who didn't have/didn't want/didn't care about health insurance, or the 150 million or so who already had health insurance?

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Yes.***


Dec 17, 2018, 3:51 PM



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how so?***


Dec 17, 2018, 4:19 PM



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pre-existing conditions, lifetime payouts...


Dec 17, 2018, 4:35 PM

more $ spent on care and more things covered to name a few.

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Those did nothing to lower the cost of health insurance.


Dec 17, 2018, 5:10 PM

For anyone. Unless you just didn't have it (or want it) before it became a mandate.

Oddly, he conveniently left out two things from ACA that might have assisted with that--intrastate health insurance sales is still illegal, and he did nothing to change/cap tort amounts which directly affect insurance premiums.

Not only ACA, but Obama's "high tech" act of ARRA in 2009 was a complete waste of money. Even after "meaningful use" standards were decided upon (3 years after the passage of the law..lulz) KPI's from those requirements still aren't being used to judge reimbursement amounts--10 years later.

IOW, bad hospitals that had bad outcomes due to bad practices have never been challenged on reimbursement amounts if they showed poor KPI's. So the bad hospitals keep having bad care due to bad practices, and keep getting reimbursed.

Nothing changed.

Add to that MORE confusing coding requirements (ICD-10) that require more resources to properly code a medical event on both the provider and biller side, and who do you think have to pay those additional costs? The consumer ultimately has to pay for it.

And there are no health information exchanges (HIE's) that were supposed to lower care costs. It never happened. The model wasn't sustainable, and no one wanted to pay for it. Another lie.

Another dumb part of ACA was making it law that someone 26 and under could stay on their parents insurance plans. Which when you think about it from a revenue generating standpoint, is really stupid. Most people under 26 are pretty healthy, so requiring them to pay for insurance would have been a revenue generator, shifting the higher cost of other sick people to a larger paying base. Nope.
Another opportunity missed.

The whole thing (ARRA/ACA) was a failure and a power grab to socialize healthcare, and all it did was make insurance and actual healthcare MORE expensive for the rest of us. ACA was originally going to "Cut the cost of a typical family's health insurance premium by up to $2,500 a year". Mine probably went up that much. But how could anyone expect that adding 12-20 million people to deeply reduced or free insurance would lower anyone's' rates? It was all built on lies.

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The good/bad of the ACA is complicated


Dec 17, 2018, 6:12 PM

and much of what you wrote are issues with the ACA that should be addressed, but scrapping the ACA altogether is a much worse mistake as the system before the ACA was worse in both terms of cost (costs were going up at a higher rate before the ACA) and care (pre-existing condition protections namely, but not solely).

As for the interstate sales and tort reform idea, which has been pretty much been the only other ideas thrown out by the republicans, I'd point to the idea that six states have allowed for interstate sales within their states and no insurance company has taken the offer. I'd have to see more information on tort amounts but I'd be surprised if they actually reduced premiums or healthcare costs significantly.

I think the idea with keeping a child 26 and under on their parents coverage is to keep the child covered until they are able to afford to pay for their own coverage. Before the law I'd guess there were significantly more people uncovered in that age range than before. More people with coverage equals cheaper costs for all of us. It's why Trump and the Republicans maintained they were not going to get rid of the protection in whatever their own plan would end up being.

I'm reminded of Trump saying "who knew healthcare could be so complicated" when Obama was trying to sell the plan as promising any specific amount in savings was going to bite him in the butt as healthcare is, indeed, very complicated. To be fair to Obama, I think he said that in 2007 about his universal healthcare plan, which was well before the ACA was actually written.

As for the ACA being a way to socialize medicine remember that it's based in large part on the HEART bill from the 1990s that had many republican co-sponsors (dole,hatch, grassley to name a few) as well as the heritage foundation ideas and Romneycare so I'm not sure how you get to it being socialized medicine.

I think there are major issues with the ACA and I'm fine with looking into fixing those issues, but scrapping it because of those issues is a much worse mistake.

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As I've said, we took insurance for 150 million people


Dec 17, 2018, 6:24 PM

and made it go up for 12-20 million who may not have even wanted it.

Call me dumb, but it seems like it would have been easier to fix it for the minority of 12-20 million than it was to overhaul and change EVERYONE's insurance. THAT's partly why I say "socialized" it, as that WAS always the intent--a single payer health "solution" for everyone.

I'll leave it to you as to WHY we might want to do that, but personally I don't think politicians do anything for altruistic reasons.

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It was going up for the insured before the ACA


Dec 17, 2018, 7:10 PM

but at least with the ACA we get better care and coverage for that added cost. I can't really see how the ACA can be considered socialized medicine. I get the argument that, as a compromise, it was meant to fail which leads to socialized medicine but then much of the blame for it failing (if it is, indeed, failing) falls in part on the republicans for not expanding medicaid, removing the mandate, and the many other small cuts they've tried to kill it with. So, are the republicans trying to install socialized medicine?

Once more, I'm fine with fixing the ACA or moving to a different idea but whatever takes its place has to have all the good parts of the ACA while removing the bad parts. So far, I haven't seen any ideas put forth that do that.

As for healthcare costs in general and the ACA, I posted this in another thread but I think it works here too.

https://ldi.upenn.edu/brief/effects-aca-health-care-cost-containment

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"We" who get better care?


Dec 18, 2018, 10:36 AM

Care hasn't significantly changed. Advancements in medicine and treatments are made through research and trials, but ARRA/ACA certainly didn't add to that.

As for coverage, my insurance costs more now for higher deductible insurance. That was directly tied to ACCA. I don't know how you could logically argue that.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2017/03/22/yes-it-was-the-affordable-care-act-that-increased-premiums/#4b745c1411d2

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giving access to that care is what the ACA changed...


Dec 18, 2018, 2:07 PM

as it removed the pre-existing exclusions and lifetime payout limits that were in place before the ACA. In terms of coverage the ACA created a baseline or essential list of things all insurance companies had to cover (some are controversial) to sell on the marketplace which created a better baseline for everyone. On the insurance's side the mandate would force thousands/millions of healthy people onto those plans to help pay for that better coverage. Your insurance today most likely has better coverage than before the ACA for the price you pay.

But overall healthcare costs are still rising (as my article I posted before shows) and the ACA did little to really slow that progression. Ending the mandate and not expanding medicaid are also to blame for the rising premiums.

https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hblog20160721.055898/full/

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Better coverage than before? Nope.


Dec 18, 2018, 9:01 PM

Not at all. Its more expensive for less coverage.

ACA failed in what was promised--lowering costs and improving healthcare. It did neither.

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hard to argue it didn't improve healthcare


Dec 18, 2018, 11:38 PM

for most people (pre-existing protection and no limit to coverage pricing alone proves that true) but the lowering cost is certainly more arguable.

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covering pre-existing conditions isnt improving healthcare


Dec 19, 2018, 10:35 AM

its just extending it. I'm not sold that every insurance carrier had a "no preexisting conditions" clause. Sure--some of the cheaper ones did. I din;t know if mine did or not.

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it absolutely is


Dec 19, 2018, 3:32 PM

and it doesn't really matter how many companies did it or didn't do it, the fact it was an option at all was the problem. Going back to that system is an incredibly dumb idea and doesn't help anyone except for maybe the insurance companies and their bottom line.

Have we argued this enough or are we going to keep going?

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Having worked in an around healthcare for the last 15+ years


Dec 20, 2018, 11:19 AM

I think I have a pretty good understanding of it from both the clinical and revenue cycle management sides, and how ARRA and ACA affected those.

You've glossed over some pretty key points I made, and based your whole emotional argument on two items.

So you're right, there isn't any need to argue about it. You aren't going to change my mind in what I have seen are facts.

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...and there it is


Dec 20, 2018, 2:32 PM

"emotional argument"

I haven't glossed over anything, as I said that the ACA has issues and that you made good points about those issues but that I didn't think they invalidated the good parts of the ACA like the pre-existing and total coverage payouts. My whole argument, as I have repeated many times, is that the ACA isn't perfect and I'm fine with fixing what is wrong or moving to a new system, but if the idea is to just get rid of it without keeping the parts of it that are good, then I think that's a dumb idea and a huge mistake. Is that an "emotional" argument? I don't think it is.

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your arguments by asking if we are going to keep arguing about this, so sorry if you took it that way. I simply was wondering how much longer we were going to keep this thread going. It seemed to me we were mostly just going in circles and repeating ourselves.

But you're right, as with most of the "debates" in here, no one's mind is going to be changed, but I never really expect that to happen.

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I looked a bit for a way to Tmail a photo.


Dec 17, 2018, 9:28 AM [ in reply to I liked the story about your first job ]

It might be quicker if I print them and put them on a Christmas card and snail mail them to you.

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Yeah, don't worry about.***


Dec 17, 2018, 2:29 PM



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it.***


Dec 17, 2018, 3:32 PM



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Does it make you feel better..revolting against


Dec 16, 2018, 11:36 PM [ in reply to Hells not real so you’re good. Be a #### if you want.*** ]

your Dad, a minister??

-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


Re: I think most folks here know so I'm focusing on those who...


Dec 16, 2018, 2:44 AM [ in reply to I think most folks here know so I'm focusing on those who... ]

Sorry bub. You don't get a free pass after the things you've said in this thread. Calling people worthless based on their financial situation is not part of a game. I guarantee you the people who will lose their health insurance if this ruling is upheld won't view it as a game.

If that's truly how you view these things, stick to the mange and talk about actual games. Perhaps we can get along on that side of the board. Here, you've shown yourself to be an immoral hypocrite.

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You seem rather hypersensitive to all this.


Dec 16, 2018, 9:53 AM

I don't know why I bother addressing you, you're too emotion to see past your own nose.

FYI, https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/I--doubt-you-have-any-clue-what-the-Bible-says-24694124#24694124

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Re: You seem rather hypersensitive to all this.


Dec 16, 2018, 1:49 PM

I've read the Bible cover to cover. I was raised in a Southern Baptist household and saved at the age of nine. I was a Christian until I realized the idea of gods is ridiculous when I was in college.

What you see as emotional is me calling you out for being a hypocrite. You like to act self-righteous and holier-than-thou, but the reality is you're one of the most immoral people on this board.

Also, https://www.tigernet.com/forum/message/Re-Am-I-going-to-helll-religious-brother***-24693822#24693822

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I am the lesser of all people on this planet.


Dec 16, 2018, 3:41 PM

If you knew the evil which lurks in the heart of man it would scare you white. Tell me something I don't know.

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What's the problem with demanding that those who want


Dec 16, 2018, 11:39 PM [ in reply to Re: I think most folks here know so I'm focusing on those who... ]

health care pay for it themselves? You need it bad enough, make room in your personal budget.

Quite simple. Quit asking me to payforbrokedicks.


-Doc

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


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