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Heisman Winner [105573]
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With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 9:38 AM
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the Big 12's results were interesting this year in examining how spending correlates to success/results:
1. TCU - $15,168,356 - Went 7-11 in conference, missed the tournament, coach played college ball at TCU and might be leaving for UCLA
2. Texas - $11,430,591 - Went 8-10 in conference, missed the tournament, won the NIT
3. Kansas - $11,126,047 - Finished 3rd in conference, made the tournament, lost in 2nd round
4. West Virginia - $9,453,611 - Went 4-14 in conference finishing in last place, missed the tournament
5. Oklahoma - $9,201,538 - Went 7-11 in conference (20-14 overall) somehow made the tournament and lost 2nd round
6. Baylor - $9,097,264 - Finished 4th in conference, made the tournament again, lost in 2nd round
7. Kansas State - $7,354,065 - Tied for 1st in conference with 14-4 record, made the tournament and lost in 1st round upset
8. Texas Tech - $7,027,324 - Tied for 1st in conference with 14-4 record (30-6 overall) and is in the Final Four
9. Iowa State - $6,858,775 - Won the Big12 Championship by winning the conference tournament, lost to the fighting nut necklaces in 1st round of the tournament
10. Oklahoma State - $6,012,456 - 5-13 in conference play, finished 2nd to last place
So, of the top 4 spenders, 3 missed the tournament. Of the bottom 4 spenders, 3 made the tournament, 2 of them tied for 1st in conference play, 1 won the conference tournament, and 1 is in the Final Four.
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110%er [7720]
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So if I'm smoking what you're rollin...
Apr 5, 2019, 9:41 AM
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Paying more money doesn't equate to basketball success? That can't be right. Somebody get Judge Keller® in here as he's the sole authority on basketball spending.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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I'm just listing the data and results. There are significant
Apr 5, 2019, 9:49 AM
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flaws when it comes to using reported spending to justify or explain results. Accounting practices are not universal. Game day operational expenses can vary widely in a city like Austin or Dallas compared to places like Lubbock, Texas or Ames, Iowa. The spending metric that has been used ad nausea on here is NOT an apples to apples comparison.
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110%er [7720]
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I've got no clue what you just said
Apr 5, 2019, 10:20 AM
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Can somebody get Judge Keller® in here to decipher all this technical mumbo jumbo for me as he's the sole authority on basketball spending.
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All-In [43563]
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I'm flattered that you've mentioned me twice already today.
Apr 5, 2019, 10:36 AM
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110%er [7720]
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More like living here:
Apr 5, 2019, 10:50 AM
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Starter [386]
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110%er [7738]
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Re: So if I'm smoking what you're rollin...
Apr 5, 2019, 10:20 AM
[ in reply to So if I'm smoking what you're rollin... ] |
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Paying more money doesn't equate to basketball success? That can't be right. Somebody get Judge Keller® in here as he's the sole authority on basketball spending.
So in your world one data point makes a trend? Did you take statistics at UofSC?
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110%er [7720]
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You're meter is broken
Apr 5, 2019, 10:21 AM
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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You want more data points?
Apr 5, 2019, 10:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: So if I'm smoking what you're rollin... ] |
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American Conference teams that made the NCAAT and where they ranked by conference in spending: Cincinnati (4th) Houston (9th) UCF (10th)
Big 10's 9th, 10th, 12th and 13th teams in spending made the NCAAT
Big South - 8th team in spending made the NCAAT
SEC - 3 out of the bottom 4 in spending made the NCAAT
Using the reported spending as justification for poor performance at Clemson is a mistake as the metric is inherently flawed.
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All-In [43563]
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I hope you are confirming that those spending numbers
Apr 5, 2019, 10:37 AM
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are accurate. When the discussion revolved around Clemson's low ACC spending, you questioned whether Clemson included the same costs that other schools does.
Are you asking the same question here?
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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"the metric is inherently flawed" and
Apr 5, 2019, 11:00 AM
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"Accounting practices are not universal. Game day operational expenses can vary widely in a city like Austin or Dallas compared to places like Lubbock, Texas or Ames, Iowa. The spending metric that has been used ad nausea on here is NOT an apples to apples comparison."
Those are 2 points I've made before you made this post about why using spending to compare performance results is both ridiculous and stupid.
I mean, I literally said the metric is inherently flawed in the post you responded to. So why would you even ask that question, or did you not read it?
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All-In [43563]
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Didn't see that part. My apologies.***
Apr 5, 2019, 12:03 PM
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Starter [386]
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All-In [43563]
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Why would I spend my time compiling that data for you?
Apr 5, 2019, 12:40 PM
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The chances are very low that you would look at that data objectively, to the point that you would acknowledge that programs which spend more on a sport tend to see more success in that sport.
If you can't look at the top 25-30 basketball programs and see that they are typically, with few exceptions, are the ones that spend more on basketball, then I can't help you.
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Starter [386]
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Please. Coaching wins games, not money.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:45 PM
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Money follows the wins.
And no, I dont think the last 25-32 teams in the tournament all outspend Clemson or even show that money equals wins.
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All-In [43563]
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Of course coaching wins games.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:54 PM
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I have never said otherwise.
But to increase the chances of success, that head coach needs to have proper funding for:
-Assistant coaches -Support staff -Practice facility -Meeting rooms -Weight room -Recruiting/travel
Etc.
All of that monetary support for the program helps that coach recruit better. Once those players are on campus, it helps him and his staff do their jobs better in terms of player development, injury prevention/recovery, day-to-day operations, etc.
Again, this is not difficult. Look to our football program to see how important all of this is.
Can a coach be successful without those things? Sure, but it's not likely. And when he is, he will be very likely to leave that school for a better situation where he has more tools at his disposal.
Given Clemson's poor basketball history, as well as the other teams we face in the ACC with much better basketball traditions, I feel that it is especially important that we fund basketball better so that we give our coaches and players the best chance of success.
What about this approach do you have a problem with?
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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I don't disagree with a single thing you said there, but
Apr 5, 2019, 1:25 PM
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here's the problem. How much does Clemson spend on:
-Assistant coaches -Support staff -Practice facility -Meeting rooms -Weight room -Recruiting/travel
Compared to other schools using operational expenses? How much does Clemson invest in capital expenses for any of those non-personnel categories compared to other schools?
Is there any way of knowing?
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All-In [43563]
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I haven't seen those numbers.
Apr 5, 2019, 1:27 PM
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But my assumption (yes I know what happens when one assumes) is that because our expenses are so much lower than most other ACC schools, we aren't spending as much in most of those areas.
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Starter [386]
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Here's your answer:
Apr 5, 2019, 6:08 PM
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More than enough.
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Starter [386]
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Our head coach has MORE THAN ENOIUGH money
Apr 5, 2019, 6:07 PM
[ in reply to Of course coaching wins games. ] |
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And all these things...
-Assistant coaches -Support staff -Practice facility -Meeting rooms -Weight room -Recruiting/travel
...to win more games. What are you not seeing here?
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All-In [43563]
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How do you know he has more than enough of those things?
Apr 6, 2019, 12:39 AM
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You keep making statements like that but I haven’t seen you back them up with a shred of data or concrete information.
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Starter [386]
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Come on Judge. We pour tons of millions of dollars into
Apr 6, 2019, 9:27 AM
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the basketball program. Again, there are no two ways about it, its more than enough.
Too, you're the one that claimed its not enough. Why would I be tasked with pulling the data together to support your statement. Either way, the statement is garbage.
We spend more than enough money to win basketball games, and most definitely more than enough to not lose at home with your job on the line and 4 seniors.
You can reply if you want. But please at least try to show some substance, and rest assured I will reply if you do.
No hard feelings here. Go Tigers.
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Orange Blooded [2928]
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Im hoping B.B. can turn it around and show
Apr 6, 2019, 12:27 AM
[ in reply to Why would I spend my time compiling that data for you? ] |
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significant improvement next season. I think I, no I KNOW I'd like him more if the WCCP crowd were not so ridiculously defensive every time a caller says even the slightest critical comments about BB. But if I get past that I think the improvement I'd prefer to see is primarily not just recruiting but keeping the recruits we get once they're on campus. I already know about the number of transfers there are among college programs. Another problem is I don't see him getting the best out of the players he does have although Devoe was awesome last season and helped make BB look like a genius. However I do like the fact I know he isn't cheating because if he is and these are the results we're getting he needs to learn to cheat better. (Jk) BB has suffered tremendously from some bad luck due to injuries. Grantham and Mitchell would've made a huge difference healthy. In conclusion if he can manage to make the tournament next season - not the NIT but the NCAA I think he should be retained without an increase unless we reach the sweet 16. If we don't manage that then I believe Littlejohn will have tumbleweeds blowing through as it will be less than half full the following season without something to rally behind. I'm praying he hits the recruiting trail very hard or managed to coach up what we have and starts realizing it takes charisma, incredible amounts of hard work, and lots of prayer to compete like we would like to see. One last thing he needs to work the refs much more during a game and fight for calls defending his players in my opinion. Sometimes it takes a tech on the coach to show players he's rallying for them and I just don't see near enough of that during the regular season out of B.B. Cmon BB! Show us you deserve to remain our Coach by giving all the sweat equity you have to give. Believe it or not I'm pulling for you!!
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All-In [43563]
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Of course spending more doesn't guarantee success
Apr 5, 2019, 10:27 AM
[ in reply to So if I'm smoking what you're rollin... ] |
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but I am confident that spending more (intelligently, of course) greatly increases the chances for success.
You won't find many programs at or near the bottom of power 5 conferences in basketball spending who are regularly in the top half of their conference and making the NCAA Tournament.
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Starter [386]
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Mam, you are definitely speaking out both sides of your mouth
Apr 5, 2019, 12:27 PM
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You definitely said we need to spend more if we hope to win games.
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All-In [43563]
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I'm not speaking out of both sides of my mouth at all.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:42 PM
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Bottom line, we can't continue to go cheap on basketball as we have for 100+ years and expect to consistently be successful. Spending more doesn't guarantee success, but it greatly increases our chances of being successful. This isn't a hard concept to understand.
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Starter [386]
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Yes, you are. And we dont go "cheap" in basketball
Apr 5, 2019, 12:47 PM
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and we definitely spend enough to win more games.
Denied.
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All-In [43563]
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LOL, okay.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:55 PM
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Keep telling yourself that we spend a reasonable amount on basketball and that we should be winning more games. If you keep saying it, it might come true.
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Starter [386]
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How many millions of dollars does it take to
Apr 5, 2019, 6:04 PM
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win a home game in the NIT tournament, with 4 seniors, against a school with less millions of dollars?
Rest assured, I will reply if you keep this up.
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Oculus Spirit [81758]
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Re: With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 9:41 AM
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110%er [5712]
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Re: With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 10:11 AM
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Amen
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Heisman Winner [139243]
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Lol...
Apr 5, 2019, 10:13 AM
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Oklahoma State can’t get anything right.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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To be fair...
Apr 5, 2019, 10:17 AM
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What in the actual shyatt is this?
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Oculus Spirit [96532]
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Can always count on some bizarre sightings in Norman***
Apr 5, 2019, 10:19 AM
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CU Medallion [56106]
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He found a job!
Apr 5, 2019, 12:37 PM
[ in reply to To be fair... ] |
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All-In [40024]
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Fake news . . . Mike Gundy owns the Mullet
Apr 5, 2019, 11:23 AM
[ in reply to Lol... ] |
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110%er [6825]
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Re: With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 10:31 AM
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Any yet, this is a very atypical year in the B12. Isn't it the first year that Kansas hasn't won it... and a few have some investigation issues? Only 1 team in the top 10 (and justified) and a lot of fringe ranked teams. As a result, a lot of losses in the first/2nd round. Iowa State is more "huh, ok" as it would have been akin to NC State winning the Tourney. Unlikely but not Basically both the #1 and #2 seed went home early in their tourney.
Texas Tech is the more interesting item as that is a young coach rising. They will have to invest or lose him. That hire was a very risky move by TT that paid off... rare to bet on a coach with only one Div1 year coaching.
Take the previous year: It is less cray-cray.
No. 4 Kansas (3) No. 14 Texas Tech (8) No. 15 West Virginia (4) Kansas State (7) TCU (1) Oklahoma State (10) Texas (2) Oklahoma (5) Baylor (6) Iowa State (9)
I think a lot of folks other than Clemson Football followers think that Shaka at UT is a failure so far. His seat is officially hot for next year. Even Jamie Dixon is a bit of a miff as TCU is trying to get out of the very bottom position in the B12 for basketball. They have finished last as often as not before Dixon's arrival. TCU is ponying up for not a lot.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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Are you saying that Jamie Dixon is a "bit of a miss?"
Apr 5, 2019, 11:14 AM
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I'm guessing "miff" is a typo?
Jamie Dixon has won 20+ games at TCU every single year so far, but he's about to bolt for UCLA if they can work out his buyout.
We can't look at last year, because THIS is the year spending is being used to justify a disappointing basketball season at Clemson. Last year we finished T3 in conference (IIRC) as the 2nd lowest spender in the ACC.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 10:41 AM
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I also pulled the 2017 Football spending and placement...
Florida State (No.2): $42.46 million - 6th Atlantic Notre Dame* (No. 4): $38.97 million - 10-3, ranked 11th Clemson (No. 10): $34.67 million - No. 1 brah Virginia Tech (No. 16): $31.15 million 2nd Coastal Miami (No. 25): $28.47 million 1 Coastal Duke (No. 36): $23.47 million 6th Coastal North Carolina (No. 37): $23.46 million Last Coastal Louisville (No. 38): $23.43 million 3rd Atlantic Syracuse (No. 39): $23.22 million Last Atlantic Pittsburgh (No. 40): $23.13 million 5th Coastal Boston College (No. 48): $21.35 million 5th Atlantic Virginia (No. 51): $20.33 million 4th Coastal NC State (No. 54): $19.19 million 2nd Atlantic Georgia Tech (No. 61): $17.38 million 3rd Coastal Wake Forest (No. 63): $16.61 million 4 Atlantic
Basically anyone that has won the ACC in recent memory is ranked #1, #3, #4
Being #1 in spending does not mean you win but being in the bottom 3rd isn't a good place to be unless you get Wake lucky in 2006.
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All-In [43563]
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Exactly, maybe we should spend less on football
Apr 5, 2019, 10:44 AM
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since Wake spent so little in 2006 and won the ACC.
See how ridiculous that sounds?
There will always be outliers, but as you stated, the trends will show that programs that spend more are much more likely to have success on the field/court.
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All-In [43563]
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These are interesting numbers. Thanks for compiling
Apr 5, 2019, 10:42 AM
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this data.
I would be curious to see how spending over a period of several years (or more) corresponds to basketball results. After all, spending more all of a sudden (e.g., on a new coach with a high salary) isn't going to result in immediate results. I'm sure TCU's budget went up considerably when they hired Jamie Dixon, a proven major college coach. He is still early in his tenure there, so TCU's spending isn't necessarily going to show dividends yet.
This is akin to us building the new facility recently. Some of our fans seem to think it's a magic wand that will automatically cause top recruits to come flocking to Clemson, but they forget that the recruiting cycle is several years now (if not more in some cases, with top prospects) and the full impact of the facility won't be felt immediately.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: These are interesting numbers. Thanks for compiling
Apr 5, 2019, 10:47 AM
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yeah, TCU is akin to Clemson going out and buying a coach/program. TCU has a similar track-record in basketball as us but with a lot more SWC conference titles.
So this is the scenario if Clemson went out and got a "Rick Barnes" and opened our wallets.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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Opened wallets how? Dixon makes less than CBB
Apr 5, 2019, 11:20 AM
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So where is TCU spending $8,839,000 more than Clemson?
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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So Clemson didn't feel the effects of the new facilities
Apr 5, 2019, 11:31 AM
[ in reply to These are interesting numbers. Thanks for compiling ] |
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when we made the Sweet 16 last year?
Jamie Dixon is trying to leave despite all of that financial support. And it's his alma mater.
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All-In [43563]
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I view facilities as mostly benefiting recruiting.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:06 PM
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Although they obviously help with the ability to practice, workout, get medical treatment, etc.
Assuming that our success last year was mostly due to Grantham, DeVoe, Reed, and Mitchell, those guys were at Clemson before the new facilities were built so I don't think that had much of a direct impact on our success last year.
Do you agree?
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Starter [386]
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Facilities help with recruiting, sure.
Apr 5, 2019, 12:35 PM
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But they dont help a coach win a home NIT game with 4 seniors.
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All-In [43563]
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Why are you focusing on our NIT loss to Wichita State?
Apr 5, 2019, 12:44 PM
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It isn't really a big deal in the grand scheme of things with our program.
Would beating Wichita State have caused you to feel better about the program? No.
So why are you making the NIT loss sound like such a big deal, other than to complain and criticize our coaching staff and players?
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Starter [386]
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Wait, what?
Apr 5, 2019, 6:06 PM
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"Would beating Wichita State have caused you to feel better about the program? No."
Sorry, but the answer is YES. Duh.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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All-In [43563]
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I do think that the increased funding for assistant coaches
Apr 5, 2019, 1:29 PM
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in 2017 could've contributed to our Sweet 16 run. And I also believe that the facilities and increased staff budget has helped us in this year's #34 ranked recruiting class.
I am particularly interested in next year's class, for 2020. That will be meaningful because those recruits have seen our completed facility for several years, have built relationships with our current staff over a few years, and saw our Sweet 16 run earlier in their recruitment.
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Legend [15844]
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Re: With so much talk about basketball spending, I thought
Apr 5, 2019, 10:46 AM
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IMO you cannot use one year to make such an evaluation and be accurate. You would need I would think 10 years or more to make an accurate analysis of money spent related to success of a program. Plus there are other factors that have to be considered.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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I agree with all of that, it's kind of the point
Apr 5, 2019, 11:18 AM
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I'm shocked that a non-Clemson alum can understand that to be honest, because there are a lot of Clemson alums who are struggling with it.
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Heisman Winner [139243]
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Oculus Spirit [78617]
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how is their fan support?***
Apr 5, 2019, 12:08 PM
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Starter [386]
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Wait, so there is no correlation between money and winning?
Apr 5, 2019, 12:08 PM
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Someone needs to make that clear to coots with "SEC revenue" and of course our beloved Ms. Judge who seems to think Coach B would win more games with more money to him and his assistants.
Speaking of the Big 12, when do our league games start?..nevermind thats probably best left alone
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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I'm not saying there's no correlation between money and
Apr 5, 2019, 12:22 PM
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winning. I agree with Judge that investing smartly in the program increases the chances of success.
But to use the program's reported expenses as a measurement is flawed in a big way.
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Starter [386]
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Sure, definitely, spending is helpful
Apr 5, 2019, 12:39 PM
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But it doesnt mean a guy can win (coach) a home NIT game with 4 seniors against a team with lesser spending.
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All-In [43563]
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A team with lesser spending?!?
Apr 5, 2019, 12:48 PM
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You do know that Wichita State spends more on basketball than Clemson does, right?
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110%er [7720]
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Maybe they spend more for a reason
Apr 5, 2019, 12:59 PM
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Marshall has had successful seasons all the way back to 2011. The money followed the success.
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All-In [43563]
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Why do you expect Clemson's head basketball coach
Apr 5, 2019, 1:32 PM
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to continue to overcome subpar funding from the administration? Why not provide better funding for the program now?
Remember, Brownell - despite being an awful recruiter, awful head coach, and overall moron - finishes 8th in the ACC on average since the league expanded to 15 teams. He's already overachieving significantly relative to our funding for basketball.
Please share with us your expectations, given the above. I'd love to know, rather than just hearing your continued vague complaints.
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110%er [7720]
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Cause and effect
Apr 5, 2019, 1:43 PM
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Show consistent success and improvement = get paid more money.
One successful year in 9 is an outlier.
Dabo didn't just walk in with rabid fan and administration support. He earned it. Why is the expectation any different for Brownell?
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All-In [43563]
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The difference is that Dabo already had the WEZ
Apr 5, 2019, 1:48 PM
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and rabid fan support, at a school known for football already among the top schools in the conference for football spending. That is a far cry from basketball at Clemson.
I'm not advocating for us to spend $20 million a year on basketball like Duke does. But it would be nice to see us fund basketball much better than we currently do if we truly want to see more success. As I've said before, the new facilities and additional staff Brad was granted two years ago are encouraging signs that things are improving.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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They only outspend Clemson by ~$51,000
Apr 5, 2019, 1:11 PM
[ in reply to A team with lesser spending?!? ] |
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Meanwhile Gregg Marshall makes $750,000 more than CBB. So if head coaches coaches salaries are included in the spending, and you back their salaries out, Clemson outspends Wichita State by a wide margin.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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Actually we're wrong
Apr 5, 2019, 2:31 PM
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Judge Keller® - the 2017 numbers have been released:
Clemson - $7,737,387 Wichita State - $7,513,193
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All-In [43563]
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Thank you.***
Apr 5, 2019, 2:37 PM
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Starter [386]
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220-something more thousand (if true) makes it
Apr 5, 2019, 6:12 PM
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acceptable to lose to Wichita State, at home, with 4 seniors? Just stop.
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Varsity [249]
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Re: 220-something more thousand (if true) makes it
Apr 5, 2019, 6:30 PM
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I think something's wrong with your computer. It keeps posting the same stupid #### over and over. Maybe it's the user.
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Starter [386]
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Bullcrap
Apr 5, 2019, 6:20 PM
[ in reply to A team with lesser spending?!? ] |
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-Assistant coaches...money doesn't help them coach better and win more games. -Support staff...similarly, money doesn't help them coach better and win more games. -Practice facility...I would bet ours is just as nice as theirs, if not better. -Meeting rooms...similarly, do you really think we're lacking ANYTHING in meeting rooms? What, a whiteboard? -Weight room... we got weights. A bunch of 'em. They even weigh the same as Wichita State's. -Recruiting...what exactly hinders us from recruiting better basketball players? Money? I think not. -Travel... Can we afford planes, trains, and automobiles, or no?
Judge, I will not ever relent when you post this silly stuff. You really just need to stop.
Coaching wins games. Period.
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All-In [43563]
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I imagine you being that guy who goes to McDonalds
Apr 6, 2019, 12:47 AM
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and complains about the food.
We spend less than all but one or two ACC teams, but we finish ahead of roughly half of ACC teams on average in wins. What makes you think you should logically expect more success than that, given our current level of investment?
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Starter [386]
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You imagined wrong, but if I get a cold
Apr 6, 2019, 9:40 AM
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sandwich for the money I paid, then I'm getting another one.
I paid more than enough for a hot sandwich. We pay more than enough for Coach B to win home games in the NIT with 4 seniors. Again, thats not even remotely debateable.
You can argue we can spend more, but you cant arguewe already spend more than enough too see better results.
If you'd like to continue, then I'll reply.
Again, no hard feelings. Go Tigers.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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Questionable data GWP - questionable data ....
Apr 5, 2019, 1:36 PM
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... something just doesn’t seem right .,,. Maybe the Judge can make sense of it ... hopefully..., otherwise... all is hopeless....
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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+1 for nut necklace reference***
Apr 5, 2019, 1:49 PM
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