Replies: 16
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CU Guru [1898]
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Percentages
Mar 27, 2019, 10:02 PM
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Overall win percentage, ACC win percent, and % years with NCAA bid
Foster. .595 .372. 11% NCAA Final 8, 1 NCAA Ellis. .580 .384. 30% Regular Season ACC Champs, Sweet 16, 3 NCAA Barnes. .607 .438. 75% Sweet 16, 3 Time NCAA Shyatt. .455 .250. 0% Beat #1 UNC Purnell. .605 .446. 43% 3 Time NCAA (O-fer) Brownell .571 .481. 22% Sweet 16, 2 NCAA
If Brownell makes it one or two borderline years, he's in the mix for matching Purnell. Now, he has best ACC won percent.
It was interesting that Barnes never had that good of an ACC record. He and Shyatt had two signature wins vs UNC.
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CU Guru [1898]
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3 year NCAA runs
Mar 27, 2019, 10:04 PM
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Were where excitement really started to build.
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Percentages
Mar 27, 2019, 11:50 PM
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Really can’t compare brads record of acc to any coach other than possibly purnell because of expansion. All the other coaches had to play the blue bloods on Tobacco Row twice a year. They- other than shyatt would have much better record than brad now.
That and the fact I discount the first year of any coach to an extent because they’re playing with the last coach recruits. Clearly CAB in wimens was this year too but it was such a dramatic turnaround.
OP probably would have had the same if not better year than brad the first year. Taking into consideration what he’s done the last 8 years, it’s miserable compared to all coaches except shyatt.
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All-TigerNet [12907]
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Plus, you can't use the "BB has more ACC wins/better record"
Mar 28, 2019, 12:11 AM
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argument w/o acknowledging those were against the bottom half of an expanded ACC. Period. If not, he would have more than 1 NCAAT appearance in 8 years.
Plus, the SOS of RB and OP in the ACC proves it was more difficult than it has been for BB.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Plus, you can't use the "BB has more ACC wins/better record"
Mar 28, 2019, 7:54 AM
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Sure, if you make the mistake and assume that the context and qualifications of a NCAA bid is uniform over time. But nope, the "NCAA or bust" crowd can't figure out that you can be better now and still not make it.
Taking record into account, Brad would have received 6 of 9 bids during the Ellis/Barnes Era. Brad is beating .500+ programs at a higher rate than Rick Barnes did (1.9 vs 1.75 wins per season).
When the pool of NCAA teams making the tournament shrinks from 23 to 19% with a greater emphasis on non-power 5 teams make the tournament, then guess who get squeezed. You now have 14 power-5 teams that no longer receive bids to the tournament based on percentages alone. Seriously, that is literally 2-3 per power conference. The middle is being squeezed from the power groups. So Duke won't feel it, but NC State, Clemson, and Wake will. Keep in mind they took a horrific StJohns over us that played a very weak Big East. So while some folks think SOS is weaker (and it is with a bigger gap between the top and bottom... but you didn't have 7 teams in the "top"), the tournament committee does not reward SOS as much as it used too... SOS is not as easily comparable as inter-conference play was not as widely played between quality opponents back in the Ellis/Barnes. Brads OOC is much, much more challenging than previous coaches.
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Legend [16186]
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Fans do not buy tickets to attend Clemson Basketball games
Mar 28, 2019, 8:13 AM
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Clemson fans do not buy tickets to attend Clemson basketball games. For the last 3 or 4 years fan support for Clemson basketball has been weak. Most of the time there are plenty of empty seats and a pronounced lack of support for the team. You can make a chicken and egg argument trying to place the blame for this lack of support on the fans or on the coach, but the fact is the program does not have good support from the ticket buying fans.
We play in a good league. We play in a modernized Littlejohn. But the fans do not come to the games. I think the lack of fan support makes it hard to recruit better players and hard to win more games. Our terrible history of close losses over the last several years can be attributed to the quality of players we have and to the fact we have essentially no home court advantage.
In general Clemson fans are loyal and they buy tickets. We take 20,000 fans to Wake Forest football games in Winston Salem. We take a good crowd to Syracuse. At the recent ACC tournament game in Charlotte tickets were selling for $6 and plenty of seats were available. Darn few Clemson fans made the effort to watch us play.
Brownell seems like a nice guy. He coaches hard during the games. But he is not selling tickets and that's killing fan support and Clemson basketball.
It's time to make a change. Bring in a more dynamic coach to attract better players and to bring Clemson fans back to the games.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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All-TigerNet [12907]
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This is a better tell, IMO...
Mar 28, 2019, 12:13 AM
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credit to GWPTiger®
Cliff Ellis - 10 seasons -Made the NIT Tournament 5/10 seasons (50%) -Made the NCAA Tournament 3/10 seasons (30%) -Total post-season play 8/10 seasons (80%)
Rick Barnes - 4 seasons -Made the NIT Tournament 1/4 seasons (25%) -Made the NCAA Tournament 3/4 seasons (75%) -Total post-season play 4/4 seasons (100%)
Larry Shyatt - 5 seasons -Made the NIT Tournament 1/5 seasons (20%) -Made the NCAA Tournament 0/5 seasons (0%) -Total post-season play 1/5 seasons (20%)
Oliver Purnell - 7 seasons -Made the NIT Tournament 3/7 seasons (43%) -Made the NCAA Tournament 3/7 seasons (43%) -Total post-season play 6/7 seasons (86%)
Brad Brownell - 9 seasons -Made the NIT Tournament 3/9 seasons (33%) -Made the NCAA Tournament 2/9 seasons (22%) -Total post-season play 5/9 seasons (56%)
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Legend [16482]
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Because
Mar 28, 2019, 6:35 AM
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Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt and Notre Dame are trash hoops programs whose inclusion weakened the ACC considerably.
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Orange Blooded [4894]
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Re: This is a better tell, IMO...
Mar 28, 2019, 6:59 AM
[ in reply to This is a better tell, IMO... ] |
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Agree. And the overall %s line up exactly how I would rate (and rank) these coaches overall. If we’re content being a low tier team in a weaker ACC we should keep Brownell. If Best is the Standard it’s time to try someone else.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: This is a better tell, IMO...
Mar 28, 2019, 8:01 AM
[ in reply to This is a better tell, IMO... ] |
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And while you are at it, can you pull the average resume of a tournament team from each one of those eras. Preferably, the 5-12 seeds. I remember FSU making it to the dance with a 6-10 conference record back in the day.
The argument is spurious as you are trying to attribute cause of the variable "coach" to the NCAA result and completely blanking on the metrics that require an "NCAA bid". Might as well be tracking icecream sales and drowning deaths.
Oh an you have to subtract Ellis's vacated NCAA trip.
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Heisman Winner [105573]
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That FSU team you speak of that made the tournament
Mar 28, 2019, 10:28 AM
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with a 6-10 conference record, had wins over:
-Arizona (made the Elite 8 that year) who finished the season ranked 4th -UConn (made the Elite 8 that year) who finished the season ranked 6th -TCU in the NCAAT who finished the season ranked 15th
They played 9 games against teams that were ranked on the day of that game (28% of their games) They played 11 games against teams that were ranked at the end of the season (the first time FSU played Maryland, they were not ranked. The 2nd time Maryland was ranked and stayed ranked through the end of the season. FSU also played Valpo who ended the season ranked) (34% of their games)
In comparison, this year Clemson played 8 games against teams that were ranked on the day of that game (24% of their games) If I'm looking at the up-to-date rankings, Clemson played 6 games against teams currently ranked (18% of their games)
So if you want to compare that FSU team with this year's Clemson team, what wins does Clemson have that compares with FSU's wins over Arizona and UConn?
Other things I found interesting about FSU's season that year - they played 6 games against the NCAAT #1 seeds (2 against Duke, 2 against UNC, one against Kansas, one against Arizona). They played 1 game against a #2 seed (UConn). They played 2 games against a #4 seed (Maryland). They played 1 game against a #5 seed (TCU). 2 games against a #6 seed (Clemson). They also had a win over Larry Eustachy's Utah State who made the tournament as a 13 seed.
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All-TigerNet [12907]
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You’re only confusing people more when you present facts ***
Mar 28, 2019, 10:41 AM
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Hall of Famer [22351]
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Hard to argue with those facts.
Mar 28, 2019, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to This is a better tell, IMO... ] |
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but that doesn't stop some from contorting themselves into pretzels logically.
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Walk-On [144]
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Re: This is a better tell, IMO...
Mar 28, 2019, 10:36 AM
[ in reply to This is a better tell, IMO... ] |
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Not making excuses but getting to the NIT now is a little more difficult than it was when OP went 16-16 his second year or Rick Barnes went 15-13 his first year. Not to mention other appearances like Cliff Ellis going 4-10 in the ACC and getting a spot in the NIT in 1988.
You’re not exactly comparing apples to apples with the automatic qualifiers that take as many spots as they do now.
Under previous criteria Brad would have gone to the NIT 3 more times for what that’s worth so he would have been to the postseason 8/9 years.
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All-In [43542]
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Great post.
Mar 28, 2019, 10:46 AM
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If we are truly going to be objective about Brownell's tenure in comparison to those other coaches, the NIT being harder to get into now is just as important as some poster's insistence that the ACC schedule was harder in the past.
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