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110%er [7173]
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Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 10, 2019, 7:06 PM
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Do you think Saban is just a better recruiter of top tier talent than everyone else or is he a masterful gifted coach or both?
Clemson won it in 2016 with an average class ranking outside the top 10(12th or 13th). Could Saban do that? Or is everything Bamer has become under him b/c he is a top tier recruiter who just has better players? Or is it a combination?
The way he stressed out over - boo hoo baby - having only the 7th ranked class 2 years ago was pathetic. To the point, it is believed he went and got young coordinators to try and compete with Dabo. Coordinators supposedly who aren't as good at coaching. I can believe that; especially if you know you aren't going to scheme someone to death and get the win. You have to "out-athlete" them!
I am starting to have my doubts about NIkki.
He did have a brilliant on side kick to help us in the 1st match up. That took guts. But, his pride and joy - the defensive secondary - has been getting burned by teams that actually know you can throw it downfield and are good at it. If not, those guys are the 5 stars they were recruited as. Look no further than the 17 game when we couldn't challenge them vertically.
Crazy question asking, I know. It's just that, I am having doubt about his ability to shape/mold/cultivate/better a player! They have to "ALREADY BE GOOD" in order for him to have success.
The Clemson staff conversely can take a 3 star and by the time his eligibility is up; is playing like a 4 star and up! They have proven this time and time and time again, etc.
Opinions?
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Oculus Spirit [90770]
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Maybe...But
Jul 10, 2019, 7:09 PM
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not as easy as Dabo has done TWICE, over him.
Oh, great question!
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Legend [17758]
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Yes. Yes he could and probably already has done so in the past***
Jul 10, 2019, 8:05 PM
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All-In [40875]
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he's the second best coach in college football hands down***
Jul 10, 2019, 8:07 PM
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All-TigerNet [13036]
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I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 10, 2019, 8:34 PM
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he's a helluva defensive coach and his teams are always prepared.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 10, 2019, 9:06 PM
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His success has been at LSU & Alabama. He wasn’t much better than .500 at Toledo & Michigan State combined. Not saying he’s not a good coach, but if his teams can’t out-athlete his opposition his schemes are pretty average. Look what spurrier did to him in 2010 with an average QB, but a good RB & a great WR. If you have similar athletes & can consistently throw on a Saban defense (negating the pass rush) & control his running game he’s helpless. I doubt he could’ve done what Dabo has done at Clemson.
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All-TigerNet [13036]
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Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 8:32 PM
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coach that's 141-21 with 5 national titles at Alabama.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 8:58 PM
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TigersAndCubs Please read above - several post about it not being about whether he wins a bunch or not.
That seriously isn't the question. I say again, "no doubt he can coach"! I just don't think he has as many if he had classes like Dabo has had that were outside the top 10. Not consistently anyway! But, with winning better and better players want to come - so good for him/bama.
I just think what this coaching staff has done here at Clemson is far more impressive since some people put "EVERYTHING" into recruiting classes!
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 9:13 PM
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A lot of coaches have had many highly ranked classes and not sniffed the success of Saban. Also, yes their classes have been ranked higher than ours, but it’s not as if our own roster hasn’t been loaded with talent.
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110%er [7459]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 9:44 PM
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Difference is Saban had the ability to plug in another 5* Frosh or Soph to reload a JR NFL draftee vs Dabo having to replace a RS JR 3-4* with another 4* RS Soph or Jr. On average i bet Dabo's team has fielded an average 1-2yrs older team as a whole since we didnt have 5* replacement. Which means our guys had to get more coaching and physical development to be on the same competitive level. This tells me that our staff and coaching are doing a better job of raising the talent level on average. This is how Dabo has competed against top recruiting classes with a 10-16 ranked class. Also to even prove the point more, we have averaged probably 5-8 fewer recruits annually because it has taken longer for them to develop from a 3-4* into the 5* competitors.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 9:27 PM
[ in reply to Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a ] |
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The proof is in the pudding:
Cardale Jones, Trevor Knight, Chad Kelley, Deshaun Watson, Trevor Lawrence. Like I said when a QB can negate the pass rush generated by all the NFL talent up front, he’s HELPLESS against it, so his scheme isn’t really superior. His win total is mostly against outdated, overmatched offenses in that conference. And 3 of his “nc’s” are from the BCS era. Look at the difference in the playoff era now that he actually has to prepare twice.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 11, 2019, 9:41 PM
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He’s won 2 NC’s in the playoff era...
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: Helpless is an interesting adjective to use to describe a
Jul 12, 2019, 9:24 PM
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And lost 3.
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 11, 2019, 9:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but ] |
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Also, he was 9-2 at Toledo and won the conference his only year there. He turned a nothing Michigan State program into a 9-2 team by his final year there.
He won the SEC in his 2nd year at LSU and the NC in his 4th year. He won the SEC his 2nd year at Bama, and the NC his 3rd year there so he didn’t exactly have time to put together multiple top recruiting classes of his own.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 11, 2019, 9:37 PM
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Toledo was already established in the MAC when he got the HC job, and he was a .500 career coach at MSU. He did have one good season there, then left for LSU. I just don’t see him doing what he’s done at Alabama anywhere else. I’m not saying he’s not a good coach, just that the talent at Alabama is typically greater than any team he plays.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 11, 2019, 9:53 PM
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He was 10 games above .500 at Michigan State. Alabama had lost more games in the 4 years prior to Saban taking over than they have during Saban’s entire time there.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 11, 2019, 10:03 PM
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I have his records posted on my prior post. Men lie, women lie, these numbers don't!
Seems you are missing the boat on Michigan St. Did he win the NC there? Did he even come close there? Heck, D'antoni up until recently had better success there. During the playoff era. When he left everyone knew he wanted to win and win badly; he just didn't think he had access to the kind of players he needed to make it happen. He was right!
I feel a Urban Meyer a Dabo Swinney or a Chris Peterson could go to a Michigan State and turn it around far more than did Saban. Because they are vested in developing the person and player! Saban's track record: "you better be good or i'm tossing you for another one next year"! Which breeds an environment of great competition and ultimately makes for a team that is very difficult to beat! But, clemson2003 nobody is arguing his stats or his win totals! In fact, I am not arguing at all. Just asking a question and stating: "I don't think he could"! Not like Dabo has anyway; maybe as his record indicates(attached in link above) he has marginal success; but nothing like we are seeing at Bama.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: I think he's both. Maybe a little bit better recruiter but
Jul 12, 2019, 9:26 PM
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^^^^^^GETS IT^^^^^
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All-TigerNet [13036]
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Michigan State got put on probation right when
Jul 13, 2019, 7:01 PM
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So, you don't see Michigan State as a p5 good example? Hmm maybe. I can't give him a pass on the grounds: if he was as good as he is made out to be, he still would have won more. A Big 10 title even if they were on probation. His wins if under probation as you said, " impressive" though. Though there has been coaches who overcame probation to still win at least their conference.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 10, 2019, 9:07 PM
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Of success at Michigan St. They definitely weren’t loaded with top 5 classes.
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CU Guru [1944]
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Re: he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 11, 2019, 9:40 PM
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He was .500 at MSU.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 11, 2019, 10:05 PM
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He was 10 games above .500 and had their first 9 win season in 12 years and only the 2nd 9 win season since 1965.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 11, 2019, 10:13 PM
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Which is great - but did he contend for a National Title?
You don't get top 5 classes at Michigan State. That is the point of the whole thread. He is a good coach. But, to me, not all that b/c he mostly just has to let his athletes compensate for any "coaching mistakes" he or his assistants make.
The margin to be "wrong" is greater in other words when you have had access to the classes he has had the privilege to coach. Great for him and if we stay on task you will go back and see - I am not trying to or ever will take credit from him for doing so. I just think how good an X and O or even CEO type coach he is gets overblown a bit.
I think Mark Dantonio is a really good coach too! - no access to top notch players though.
I know Chris Peterson is a Great Coach. - has gone undefeated and beaten the big boys. but he has no rings b/c he isn't packing classes filled with 5 star talent. I would take Chris Peterson over Nick Saban if they both could field a team with the same number of 4 and 5 star players. Every time.
Urban Meyer - Yep!
Dabo Swinney - having done it twice with classes outside the top 10 - what else needs to be said! Give this man #1, #1, #3 and #4 class and he might challenge some CFL team, LOL!
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110%er [5072]
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Re: he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 11, 2019, 10:17 PM
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He was at MSU for 4 years. How many NC’s did Dabo compete for in his first 4 years?
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110%er [7173]
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Re: he could. Not as many as he’s won at Bama but he had a lot
Jul 11, 2019, 10:25 PM
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None.
But, if you want to go there Dabo has only had 2 seasons of less than 10 wins. But, Dabo has beaten him twice for ALL the marbles with classes outside the top 10.
Again, this isn't an attack on Saban. It's a discussion on if posters think he could "theoretically" do it with non-top 5 type classes like DAbo has done multiple times now!
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 10, 2019, 9:17 PM
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Great question. Some info to add to the discussion - Based on 247Sports Composite Team Recruiting Rankings ( the first ones I found)
2007 #12
2008 #3
2009 #3 National Title
2010 #4
2011 #1 National Title
2012 #1 National Title
2013 #1
2014 #1
2015 #1 National Title
2016 #1
2017 #1 National Title
2018 #6
His LSU National Title was in 2003, and I didn't research his recruiting there.
My 2 cents are he is an excellent coach, a horrible boss, a great recruiter. However, like others, I don't think he is a great developer of talent. Certainly his players are better when they leave, but not sure how much better. In part, Dabo develops talent because he does such a great job hiring, and keeping an amazing coaching staff. Saban on the other hand runs people off.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 10:25 AM
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Yeah, that LSU team is the answer.
2000: #21
2001: #2
2002: #21
NC in 2003
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 12:49 PM
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FutureDoc where did you get that information from might I ask?
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 1:13 PM
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Yep, they beat Oklahoma 21-14 in 03 to win it. They had a 19-7 regular season loss to Florida that season coached by Ron Zook.
Southern Cal was ranked #1 at the end of that years regular season. They went on and won their bowl game and yikes; LSU who had been #2 up until then leap frogged them. What? You are #1 at the end of the regular season and "win your bowl game" and you don't get the crown "outright". Southern Cal finished 12-1. Co-national champions.
SEC bias!
But, no doubt Saban can coach. And, will go down as maybe the best ever when he retires. I personally don't think that team would have beaten the real USC. And, I don't think Saban is on the Mount Rushmore of coaches w/o having top 5 classes!
Again, it maybe my bias to our staff, but neither of the two most recent Clemson national championship teams had a composite class inside the top 5. In fact, I don't think they were top 10. And to me; that says, "Clemson has developed talent far greater than those schools that have out recruited them"! Out coached teams who have out recruited them.
Take Michigan St. coach D'antoni. Give him a top 10 class and I think he is the best current coach in the Big 10. He wins with lunch pal guys and under valued players and over looked guys and scares the paints or beats teams with superior talent pretty regularly. I know last couple seasons they have struggled but up until then; they were tough. Even making the playoffs what two/three years ago. Or Chris Peters in Washington how he made Boise St. and now Washington one of the hardest outs in the game. He did it with far less talent 1st and showed it wasn't just b/c I have superior talent.
Again, Urban Meyer as well! And - I really don't like Meyer at all; but I give him credit. He can coach his butt off.
Just my opinion. And, It won't change the "FACT" N. Saban deserves to be among the best for "His Wins"! Nuts and bolts of it I kind of just feel differently! Somebody is thinking: Oh you are penalizing him for having good/great talent. No. Well, kind of, but for never having done it "w/o superior talent"! 03 should not have happened and is just weird $$$$$$$$$.
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Satan's days are numbered and he know's it...
Jul 10, 2019, 9:24 PM
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ship is taking on water...
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110%er [7173]
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Had He Come Close At Michigan St.
Jul 10, 2019, 10:02 PM
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I would say, "he could had he come close at Michigan St."!
If you see his Titles posted above - you can kind of see it in the numbers! 07 was 12th only due to him being new at Bamer!
Urban Meyer - in my opinion is a better coach! Gasp! Yeah, that is my opinion! Why? B/C he took Bowling Green and was wearing teams out(big schools). Then went to Utah and made Alex Smith a household name and Utah dang near unbeatable! He went to Florida and won a couple national titles.
He didn't have great recruiting classes in Utah! Or Bowling Green! But, he won anyway!
I don't think Nikki could! We know Dabo can. Although 12th isn't bad; it isn't the #1, #2 or so type class either.
****Note: I know he is a legend. I know he will go down as the best. I get all that. But, that isn't the question. The question is if the board thinks he could do it with say a class outside the top 10. My answer is a resounding: "Hades No"!
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110%er [7173]
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Oklahoma and Ohio St. classes that beat bamer rank?
Jul 10, 2019, 10:40 PM
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Where was Oklahoma(BCS) and Ohio St. classes ranked compared to Bamers and Saban when those teams beat him in playoff and BCS games?
I am almost certain they were not as good as the one he was working with! Though Ohio St. could have been. But, it is possible to out scheme his teams. Especially when he seems like such a grumpy person to have to work with. Like one of the talking heads kind of suggested when Kiffin was there; do you think he gave him the old " blank you " and called something just to p-him-off?
Kirby Smart, Pruitt all great defensive minds. Remember when Pruitt gave Coach Morris fits when he was at FSU b/c he would play so physical with our WR's. His defenses in fact are part of who I think you can point to for us not using all the eye candy Coach Morris utilized a bunch. The playbook was simplified and there was less tell-tell keys to look at. And, it made us prep our WR's for Hard Press coverage much better which served us well against Bamer!
Remember Bob Stoops arrogance! He wanted Bama. Got Bama and Beat Bama! He was one of the 1st HC to go public with how biased the media is toward the SEC. He was right!
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Orange Blooded [4101]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 10, 2019, 11:41 PM
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Possibly. For as proud as I am of our boys accomplishments, Saban is still at Alabama, and they will likely be around the top for several more years. His recruiting WONT drop too much, so it's a moot point imo. And dude can flat out coach. Like it or not. He is one of the best to ever walk a sideline. And I also agree with another poster on Urban. Dont have to like them to admit their ability. Saban was getting Mich State going when he left for LSU, turned around a really bad program there so Les was able to win a title, then wins multiples at Alabama. Sorry if unpopular, just my opinion. Dude is on the Mt Rushmore of coaches if you ask me.
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Orange Blooded [2063]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 8:08 AM
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With the turn over in assistant coaches, they don’t have the consistency needed to develop talent. Very seldom do you see Lil Nicky out coach anyone. His formula right now is to dominate recruiting and just out-talent everyone. It works pretty well for him till he runs into teams with equal talent that are better coached.
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All-In [26479]
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No. His run is attributed to a decade of oversigning
Jul 11, 2019, 9:30 AM
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casting off players that don't work out.
The numbers don't lie ... look at how many Bama have signed the past 10 years vs. Joe Blow University.
His margin for error is 3 times greater than everyone else's.
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110%er [6223]
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Re: No. His run is attributed to a decade of oversigning
Jul 11, 2019, 2:26 PM
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Excellent point and no talking head wants to mention it.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: No. His run is attributed to a decade of oversigning
Jul 11, 2019, 10:32 PM
[ in reply to No. His run is attributed to a decade of oversigning ] |
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Yep, it’s that simple. I can’t believe that all the other coaches aren’t doing the same since that’s all it takes to win 5 NC’s.
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Heisman Winner [111433]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 9:32 AM
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he did pretty well when the cupboards were bare back in 2008, he won the SEC the following year.
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110%er [6468]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 8:49 PM
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Who knows? Saban is super driven to succeed. He built Alabama super quick. I have always thought that his key to winning was the fact he is obsessed with every aspect of the game.
I honestly think he and Dabo are a lot alike. Both are CEOs who run football teams. Both know the game of football, but their success is not because of the Xes and o's. Their success is due to attention to every detail at every level.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 9:05 PM
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Wow! A Thumbs down!
I guess there are SEC-Saban-lovers in here. Who also can't read! I never criticized your messiah Saban. I simply asked a question in an open forum; whew! B - hurt over a question about an opposing coach we often face! Strange!
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 10:40 PM
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I got you. My pet peeve are tds no one is willing to own up to. If you can't own it don't give it. I've only given one td, and I posted why.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 11, 2019, 10:53 PM
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HillBillyTiger Thank You!
What's crazy is: I have done nothing but given him credit for doing it the way ( in my opinion ) he would have to do it.
The coaches I named I think and know(Dabo) can do it w/o a top tier(top 3) class! And to me that makes him better! If Chris Peterson were willing to move to say Tennessee, I think he would contend for a NC within 3 to 4 years easy! With Oregon and Southern Cal scooping up the best talent on the west coast he has to do his Boise St thing and develop talent. Let him get his hands on a top say 15 class(composite). Average class he is working w now at Washington over 5 years - #24https://www.sbnation.com/college-football-recruiting/2018/2/8/16990550/college-football-recruiting-rankings-2018-class
But, he has put the Huskies in the conversation a couple times and a playoff berth with it. Mark of good coaching over just letting the players bail you out!
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Oculus Spirit [83020]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80127
Joined: 11/29/99
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Yes***
Jul 11, 2019, 10:34 PM
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All-TigerNet [10838]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 7928
Joined: 10/18/16
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Re: Could Saban win A NC with a average class Outside Top 10?
Jul 12, 2019, 6:17 PM
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No. Without the talent of 3 - 5 NFL first rounders and an equal number of 2nd and 3rd rounders. He would never win another NC.
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