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Replies: 21
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CU Guru [1088]
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From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 12:13 AM
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What do BB defenders consider a successful vision for the next 4 years assuming he is the coach?
Acceptable or achievable ACC win %?
Tourney appearances?
Tourney wins/rounds?
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All-In [40872]
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500,1,2***
Apr 12, 2019, 3:49 AM
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Re: From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 4:02 AM
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Brad better be scrambling 24/7 right now for several grad transfers otherwise he'll need the services of a good realtor this time next year.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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If Drad didn't let him go this year, he knows next year is
Apr 12, 2019, 10:19 AM
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going to be bad, so he isn't going to fire Brownell anytime soon. Brownell very obviously doesn't feel any sense of urgency whatsoever.
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110%er [5379]
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: BB may have to put up signs for tryouts at FIKE***
Apr 12, 2019, 10:36 AM
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That's what I thought, but I thought I heard him say that next year he hoped to play more guys, as many as 9 or 10, so that he could play at a faster pace. I tuned in at the middle of the interview. Did I get something out of context or have the wrong person talking?
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110%er [7191]
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Re: From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 6:54 AM
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The only "real" expectation should be on finishing games with a win. We had 4 losses this year that I can recall that were lost in the last minute. Win those games, you probably make the tournament.
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Orange Blooded [3276]
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Re: From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 8:06 AM
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Agreed. However, with the loss of Reed, Thomas, Skara, and Mitchell, I will be surprised if we are even in games of that magnitude next year. Next year will be the epitome of a rebuilding year in my opinion and unlike football where we reload, basketball will take a year or 3 to rebuild.
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110%er [7929]
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Re: From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 8:37 AM
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What do non-delusional Clemson fans consider a successful vision for the next 4 years assuming he is the coach?
Acceptable or achievable ACC win %?
Tourney appearances?
Tourney wins/rounds?
FIFY
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: From an expectation standpoint
Apr 12, 2019, 10:10 AM
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I have said before that my tournament expectation depends on how the tournament goes.
If Clemson makes the tournament once every four years but advances to the Sweet 16 each time they go then I am fine with the absence in the other years.
I would actually be less pleased if we make it every year but gets bounced in the first round annually. I do think that would still be successful considering where we are right now.
I think Brownell's model should follow how Jim Grobe ran the Wake Forest football team.
Focus on a good class or two of recruits, let them take their lumps as they grow, then have a strong, competitive team every 3 or 4 years when that class makes it to their junior and senior years.
Grobe managed an ACC title one year with that model. He did however get blown out the years prior as he was developing those players. I'm not sure Clemson basketball fans are patient enough for that approach, but I think it may be the best approach until we can consistently bring in a higher level of recruit.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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If we use the Jim Grobe model, our best days are behind us.
Apr 12, 2019, 10:24 AM
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And I'm not sure you can say that "Clemson fans aren't patient enough for that approach" when you consider we are moving into year 10 of the Brownell reign of terror.
Jim Grobe, who had a much tougher job than Brad Brownell, actually had his best year in year 6 and steadily fell off from that level over the next 7 years.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: If we use the Jim Grobe model, our best days are behind us.
Apr 12, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Sorry, but it is easier to win at Wake Football than it is Clemson Basketball. Sad to say. They actually have conference titles. Two in fact. I think we have a dusty SoCon trophy somewhere. Now, Grobe stepped into less competitive program but also a less relevant ACC football era. The 2000s were dark times for the conference as FSU fell off, Miami died (upon entry) and the only decent team was VaTech... but even then, they were only the strongest weak-sauce and would be obliterated nationally to a power... or by ECU/JMU. Jim Grode only face one team that ever won a title during that season. 2013 vs FSU.
Now compare that to Brownell which might be coaching at the height of ACC basketball power not seen in several decades. The top half is stronger than ever. Four current ACC members have won the Natty in the last 10 years. UNC, UL*, Duke, and UVA... and account for 6 of the 10 titles. Seriously, HALF of all the champions in the last 10 years are now conference foes. Wake only has to face 2 champions... and sometimes they win 30-0 against former natties.
Wake, while never great, did hire a Football coach well before we hired a basketball coach. How did we go 60 years without a real basketball coach???
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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I doubt you even believe most of the stuff you write.
Apr 12, 2019, 11:05 AM
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You seem to start with a conclusion and work back from there.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I doubt you even believe most of the stuff you write.
Apr 12, 2019, 12:51 PM
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It is called making a statement and then backing it up with facts.
You take an inference such as saying that the premise "WF/Grobe football is easier than Clemson/BB Basketball" and then bring in supporting facts to support the case.
It is more useful in rational conversation that hyperbolic statements like "brads reign of terror"
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Normally, my ending statement is a quip of absurd but accurate observation pointing out a very "unfortunate" reality that shows the state of the given issue.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: If we use the Jim Grobe model, our best days are behind us.
Apr 12, 2019, 11:06 AM
[ in reply to If we use the Jim Grobe model, our best days are behind us. ] |
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My comment on patience was due to the fact that while D Rad has given Brownell a buyout that prevents him from being let go this season. Many "fans" on Tigernet wanted him fired 1 year removed from a Sweet 16 appearance.
If he makes a run every 4 years, I'm not sure Clemson fans would be patient enough during the other 3 to wait for the next tournament run.
In regards to Grobe, just because he only won one ACC title doesn't mean he fell off the rest of the way.
In 2011 we needed a last second field goal to beat Wake Forest AT HOME to clinch the division title.
Yes Wake football is much tougher than Clemson basketball. Going to a bowl is a great year at Wake.
That has nothing to do with the model Grobe used.
What Grobe did when he was successful was bring in freshman and focus on development.
He didn't try to get disgruntled transfers after losing a good senior class to salvage a major drop in the following year. He built with his freshmen.
I think this would serve Brownell well.
Getting transfers to try to win 15 games next year instead of letting the freshman and sophomores develop in a really bad year is not the way to go.
If he knew he had security in his job, he could let the freshmen and sophomores lose but get better while doing it. Those guys would be much better for it as juniors and seniors and would be ready to make a run.
I think it could also help in recruiting if guys didn't see Clemson as a school that will bring in a transfer to play in front of somebody who has been in the program.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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I agree with you about Brownell's overuse of transfers
Apr 12, 2019, 11:11 AM
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and how that harms our program. It does allow him to say "wait til next year" every year.
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: I agree with you about Brownell's overuse of transfers
Apr 12, 2019, 11:17 AM
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Depending on perspective I think using transfers should allow less reason for patience.
If you can show that you have young guys on the floor then you have a really good "wait until next year" plan.
If your "wait until next year" plan is to hope some redshirt senior decides he is too good for (insert mid major team here), then I am less interested in repeating that process every year as a fan. I also want that 1-year (or sometimes 2-year if we are lucky) transfer to be all-ACC caliber which rarely happens.
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Excellent point about patience.
Apr 12, 2019, 11:25 AM
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The transfers should be used as a supplement to a healthy high school talent evaluation and recruiting program.
This year was an excellent example of why an over reliance on transfers is not the way to go. Plus, it appears we are in serious need of two or three grad transfers that we will have to depend upon to win games next year.
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All-In [43992]
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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deroberts called you out! What have you to say for yourself
Apr 12, 2019, 11:30 AM
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"SO SNOWFLAKE WHAT OTHER RESOURCES DO WE NEED."
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Did you seriously just say that Jim Grobe had a tougher job
Apr 12, 2019, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Did you seriously just say that Jim Grobe had a tougher job ] |
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If Wake Forest is not dead last in the conference in football then the coach deserves a raise.
That is not necessarily the case for Clemson basketball.
Now was it easier to win the title while Grobe was at Wake because everyone else was down? Yes.
Just making Wake competitive in football is much tougher than being competitive at Clemson in basketball.
Obviously ACC basketball is tougher than ACC football but winning a regular season title is not the measure of success for those programs in each sport.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Did you seriously just say that Jim Grobe had a tougher job
Apr 12, 2019, 1:07 PM
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You can make that same case for a Clemson Basketball coach too.
Historically, we are dead-last out of the current member schools for basketball accomplishments. We are now second to last in the conference for basketball resources (thanks BC).
Now, we are .500+ and often mid-table.
What would be easier for Wake to build is that the "swings" in fortune in football are slower than basketball. With fewer schools and more variance in playing time, you can "build". In basketball, only 5-7 kids can make a difference, you have more competition for for limited playing time with more schools participating. Fragmentation and 1 & doners makes basketball more ephemeral. However, the "powers" in Basketball power conferences are more "set" even if the champions are not. I would argue that while the Natty in football is harder, being a "contender" in a power conference is harder for basketball schools because mid-majors can pull talent away with a logical path to the same "championship goal". Imagine if UCF or Troy could have the same path to a national championship as NC State or other mid-table P5 school. Right now, if you are an average P5 bowl team, you are likely going to a better bowl than a non-power 5 conference champion.
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