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YOUR BALANCE
I am completely and enthusiastically against
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I am completely and enthusiastically against


Sep 19, 2019, 6:23 AM

any mandated collection of firearms from law-abiding citizens. I would fight that in the ballot box, communicating with my representatives, etc. And I don't have a firearm, and honestly never plan to have one.

But I am troubled by the response to it I see from a lot of Christians whom I respect. There's an attitude of "over my dead body," "come and get 'em", etc. If the government were to pass a law requiring citizens to give up firearms, the Biblical response would be to obey that law, just like it's Biblical to obey any other law (so long as it doesn't contradict something God said). And unless I can find a verse that says "thou shalt have a gun," this isn't an example of such a contradiction. (I hope it doesn't say that, because I'd be in sin by not having one!)

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They were having a voluntary gun collection in Providence


Sep 19, 2019, 8:16 AM

Last week. No cash given, but Visa cards were traded...

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I think that is a great idea.***


Sep 19, 2019, 8:50 AM



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I think the reason is that a general collection would


Sep 19, 2019, 9:12 AM

be seen in the same light as, say, a collecting of books. And dont think we aren't far away from that.

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Yes, I'd be vehemently against that, too.


Sep 19, 2019, 9:30 AM

But if they came for books, I'd turn them over also (except the Bible).

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Re: Yes, I'd be vehemently against that, too.


Sep 19, 2019, 10:35 AM

That's an interesting point and leads me to this question: Would you also be willing to kill/die if the authorities came for your Bible?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


The great Christian correct answer is yes.


Sep 19, 2019, 10:57 AM

In real life, I'll just say I'd like to think so.

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Not kill. Die, yes.


Sep 19, 2019, 10:58 AM [ in reply to Re: Yes, I'd be vehemently against that, too. ]

There is no instance in the Bible of the martyrs "fighting back". They accepted their punishment as an honor worthy of Christ.

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That seems to be an inconsistent approach. There is no


Sep 19, 2019, 2:36 PM [ in reply to Yes, I'd be vehemently against that, too. ]

biblical or spiritual principle requiring you to hold onto your bible. If you are to obey the law of the land, and the law says to give them your bible, according to you that is what you have to do.

The point is that the collecting of books would not be Constitutional, just like banning a meeting or worship service or the confiscating of guns. If my state passes a law that says I can't meet to discuss xyz, I will ignore the law.

On a higher plane than that, the Declaration includes permission to disobey a govt if that govt fails to protect what the Founders saw as "truths to be self evident". "When in the course of human events...", and all that.

You are therefore a citizen of a country that in its founding document gives you permission to violate a law if that govt departs from its responsibility to protect your ability to pursue those self evident truths. If your only principle is to "obey the law of the land", you are in quite a pickle.

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Yes there is...the Bible commands us to study the


Sep 19, 2019, 2:45 PM

Scriptures, which we can't do if we don't have it.

If the government passes a law that does something, and the Supreme Court does not declare it unconstitutional, then it is constitutional. I may not agree, but that's just, like, my opinion, man.

I'm not really talking about what the Declaration of Independence tells me I can do. Nice document, one of the greatest ever. But I'm talking about what the Bible tells me to do.

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If we're that literal, it says to write in in your heart.


Sep 19, 2019, 4:12 PM

Examining the scriptures was done well before almost anyone could read or write. Collecting all the bibles is hardly a hindrance to studying the scriptures.

But of course this isn't about that. If one's comment is that he must obey the law of the US, he has to think about the Declaration and the Constitution. If we don't, there is little defense against the govt unless one thinks a lawyer sitting in his office is going to decide on his own to challenge a law that affects you but not him. Civil disobedience is not an anti biblical thing, I don't think. But if you do, no problem, we will just disagree on that point. Worse things could happen.

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OK


Sep 19, 2019, 4:59 PM

Though the "collecting all the Bibles" line was an odd strawman.

I believe the Constitution is the law of the land. The Declaration of Independence is not law. It's just an announcement and a statement of philosophy.

Doing what the American revolutionaries did, now, against the United States, would be treason, Constitutionally. One has to decide for themselves whether it would be right or wrong.

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Disobeying a law is treason? Oh my.***


Sep 19, 2019, 10:24 PM



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No, I meant revolting against the government


Sep 23, 2019, 10:04 AM

(i.e. the American Revolution) is treason, Constitutionally.

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I was kidding. Just trading hyperboles in the tnet way.***


Sep 19, 2019, 10:25 PM [ in reply to OK ]



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I actually misread what you said anyway.


Sep 23, 2019, 10:05 AM

You did not make a strawman. My apologies.

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But...the Bible is a book written


Sep 24, 2019, 8:17 AM [ in reply to Yes, I'd be vehemently against that, too. ]

By men...like all the other books. I'm sure that's a blasphemous comment, but...

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Re: But...the Bible is a book written


Sep 24, 2019, 8:57 AM



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Re: I think the reason is that a general collection would


Sep 19, 2019, 10:34 AM [ in reply to I think the reason is that a general collection would ]

be seen in the same light as, say, a collecting of books. And dont think we aren't far away from that.

I don't agree that we're close to that; however, I know there are many Americans who would welcome it. Some already demand it.

It's amazing how many of our countrymen don't believe in the Bill of Rights, which is why it's so important to have them.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


at least the ones you agree with


Sep 19, 2019, 11:23 AM

Can the government pass a law outlawing books?

Are they not protected under freedom of press, speech?

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I love every single one of those top 10 amendments, bro.


Sep 19, 2019, 2:36 PM

I can guarantee after asking a you a few questions, I can prove that you don't agree with em all. Especially if you're a Trump supporter.

And huh? Of course the government can't do that and of course it's a First Amendment violation. Really?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


The literal collecting of books was a hyperbolic image I


Sep 19, 2019, 3:00 PM [ in reply to Re: I think the reason is that a general collection would ]

used, sure. But I do believe we are closer to that than many think. A university that will not allow a Ben Shapiro to speak - though the invitation to him has been approved by the ordinary means other speakers are invited - simply because they don't agree with what he will say will certainly support the banning of his writings....except they won't quite be able to bring themselves to say so. Bill Of Rights and all that. But there is not really much of a distinction between the two.

The far left and the far right have always been very willing to control what people see and hear. The problem now is that those two extremes are not as extreme as they were even 20 years ago. The middle seems smaller now.

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Re: The literal collecting of books was a hyperbolic image I


Sep 19, 2019, 3:18 PM

I would argue we have gotten a lot better about book freedom. There was a time when Cather in the Rye, Fahrenheit 451 (ironically), and other classics were banned in schools.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Sure, but to be fair those were reactions to cultural trends


Sep 19, 2019, 4:03 PM

the trends became normalized, the thing was a tempest in a teapot. What is happening today is a more general willingness to silence points of view a group or wing doesn't like. Banning a book because it has s-e-x in it is not on the same plane as banning thoughts and viewpoints.

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Re: I am completely and enthusiastically against


Sep 19, 2019, 9:22 AM

100 percent agree. I would also oppose any measure to forcibly collect firearms, not only from a Constitutional sense, but also the fact that people would die. Many people would die.

But you are right. Anyone proclaiming to be a Christian who would kill law enforcement over this is far from being one.

I find it quite ironic as well that the same people who say they'll kill/die before losing their guns and that they need them to protect themselves from the government are the same ones always clamoring for increased military spending, blind support of police, etc.

Like, bruh... who you think is coming to take those guns from you if that goes down?

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Refusal to give up the firearm doesn't even imply shooting


Sep 19, 2019, 3:12 PM

the official who comes to take it. Would I shoot the policeman who comes to break up my lawful assembly? The Chinese arrest Christians all the time, and the Christians there do not react with violence. They meet anyway and accept the consequences. They don't obey. Same with a firearm. There are any number of ways to resist that.

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Re: Refusal to give up the firearm doesn't even imply shooting


Sep 19, 2019, 3:15 PM

The Chinese thing is an example of Biblically correct disobedience of government, because they are doing something God commanded them to do (meeting together, worshipping, evangelizing, etc.), in spite of the government. "We ought to obey God rather than men."

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Paul wrote to the Romans to obey every law,


Sep 19, 2019, 9:35 AM

and that it was God who ordained the government rulers, while Nero was Caesar. If it was a good instruction under the insane and evil Nero, it's definitely good enough for whoever governs in America.

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What will likely happen is a ban on AR type weapons sales


Sep 19, 2019, 10:42 AM

For those who have them, they will likely have to get permit/license to keep them. Somewhat like that which is required to get a concealed carry permit. Maybe a bit more detailed. Ownership of said weapons may or may not be transferable.

A buyback may also be offered on a voluntary basis for those who do not want/or cannot pass a licensing program.

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I agree, but you know how it is, when a fringe candidate


Sep 19, 2019, 10:59 AM

says something to get attention, then people get all bent out of shape.

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Re: I am completely and enthusiastically against


Sep 19, 2019, 11:37 AM

This type of action would not affect me. I lost all my firearms in a boating accident on the river.

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That's crazy.. Same thing happened to me last year sometime***


Sep 19, 2019, 1:15 PM



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GO TIGERS!!


WWJD? (ooops, doesn't fit with what I want...Molon Labe!!!)***


Sep 19, 2019, 12:23 PM

null

Message was edited by: ATL PAW MAN®


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When I think about this topic, I always think about


Sep 19, 2019, 12:36 PM

whether the American Revolutionaries were in the right, Biblically. Talk about an unpopular conversation to have...lol.

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Irony not lost on the fact that the ability to bear arms


Sep 19, 2019, 1:49 PM

was at least in part, added as a guarantee that we would never have a government that would confiscate them. Because that's step 1 to tyranny. Disarm the citizens.

Romans 13 was Hitler's favorite Bible verse btw and was often cited in turning the Christian German people into Nazis. Jeff Sessions most recently evoked it when promoting the separation of families as immigration enforcement.

Our founding fathers were cognizant of the fact that a free and democratic government is still a government of men. As such, they can very well be evil, and succumb to the evils that man has always faced. Hence checks and balances. AND the second amendment. AND the 10th Amendment. AND the 1st.

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Indeed, God never promised that we would not experience


Sep 19, 2019, 2:02 PM

tyranny or oppression. As I said, the book of Romans was written during the rule of Nero.

As opposed to revolting politically against Nero, the Church chose to focus on the Gospel. And the Gospel and the Church exploded into the world as a result.

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Well, as I see it, the political revolt is in taking guns,


Sep 19, 2019, 3:24 PM

not keeping them.

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not to mention it would cost the taxpayers 5-7 trillion***


Sep 19, 2019, 3:55 PM



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math is hard billion not trillion


Sep 20, 2019, 9:32 PM

still a bunch

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Your limited observations of Christians doesn’t even


Sep 19, 2019, 4:00 PM

begin to tell the story. Many are keenly aware the abolishment of gun ownership represents the tipping point of the advance toward a socialist, govt controlled state. History is littered with examples of this: Cambodia, China, USSR, Venezuela, etc. All told, over 100 Million unarmed citizens murdered by their socialist governments. You don’t need to look any further than the democrat debates to understand that the socialist agenda is center stage right now: Gun Confiscation, Govt Dependency on everything from healthcare to reparations, Eliminating capitalism, etc. It’s all about centralizing power in the hands of a few. This is numero uno reason “they” are doing everything possible to stop The President. Trump made his intentions perfectly clear before he took office, and people elected him to see it happen:

https://youtu.be/G2qIXXafxCQ

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Serious question


Sep 19, 2019, 4:33 PM

under what circumstance would a christian, and actual one like yourself, need a fire arm?

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To hunt for food or defend oneself or one's family.***


Sep 19, 2019, 5:01 PM



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Re: To hunt for food or defend oneself or one's family.***


Sep 19, 2019, 5:40 PM

Do you think it’s a sin to hunt for sport?

I know a lot of Christians who love to do this. Hang those big antlers on the wall.....

According to Genesis there was no killing before the fall of man correct? God created everything good and the humans and animals were herbivores.

It seems like given that fact it would be considered sinful to kill even for food.

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Absolutely not.


Sep 23, 2019, 10:03 AM

There are whole books of the Bible that talk at length about the killing of animals, as commanded by God. God Himself was the first to kill an animal. (Genesis 3)

The topic of "killing animals for sport" is not addressed in Scripture, that I recall. It's certainly not forbidden.

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Re: Absolutely not.


Sep 23, 2019, 11:44 AM

Supposedly god's creation was perfect. There was no killing of any kind. When sin entered the world was when all that started. The bible says humans were herbivores in the garden of eden.

So it seems that would make it sinful to enjoy something that is a product of the perfect creation turned bad, no?

Also, if god created everything, why would you want to kill something he created for sport?

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No, most of that is not correct.


Sep 23, 2019, 12:56 PM

God told man to eat the animals, so it is obviously not sinful.

I don't want to kill something for sport. It kinda grosses me out. But the Scripture does not forbid it, so I have no reason to tell someone else not to do it.

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Re: No, most of that is not correct.


Sep 23, 2019, 5:17 PM

Odd story and seems a bit contradictory. God creates everything good, animals and humans live in harmony. Nothing dies and gets eaten by anything. Man eats forbidden fruit and a short time later the same god approves the killing of animals for food and as a sacrifice to him....

It also seems contradictory for someone who believes god created everything to want to kill some of those things even for food considering you don't have to.

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My friend, it's the opposite of contradiction.


Sep 24, 2019, 6:17 AM

Sin brought death. Humans began to die, animals began to die, everything began to die. It's not contradiction...it's perfect and unassailable logic. Animals had to die precisely because man sinned.

If you think it's "contradictory" for man to eat God-created animals, why isn't it also contradiction for man to eat God-created plants? You are grasping at straws trying to make a strange point.

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Re: My friend, it's the opposite of contradiction.


Sep 24, 2019, 7:20 AM

I’m not trying to make a point. Just kind of reading it as it is and thinking out loud. You’re reading it from the viewpoint that it’s already true.

Why did man’s sin mean suddenly that man had to eat animals? It seems like the god who hates violence which it says he does in Psalms would deem it sinful to kill his created animals.

Plants do not feel pain. Animals surely do not want to die.

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I have a feeling that you...


Sep 24, 2019, 7:56 AM

Don't believe the Bible, and also are not a vegetarian...

Yet, you are trying to convince me that the Bible says I should be a vegetarian. It seems like an odd thing to spend time on. What is your purpose here?


I appreciate you recognizing that I'm reading the Bible from the viewpoint that it's already true. That's one right thing you have said in this conversation. Your Bible analysis is extremely faulty, but again, I don't think you believe the Bible, so I'm not sure why you're trying to analyze it.

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TinCup...


Sep 24, 2019, 8:14 AM [ in reply to Re: My friend, it's the opposite of contradiction. ]

God created a perfect world, and loved man enough to specifically create him in His image. (Meaning, He gave man Godly attributes) He also loved man enough to allow him to make a choice whether to love God in return.

Man chose, instead of loving God, to try to become God, and sin entered the world. God, being God, cannot coexist with sin, so man's fellowship and future with God was cut off. Yet, God's love for man was so supreme, that He decided, instead of deservedly annihilating man, to put in place a mechanism for man to be perfect again. Death is the only penalty for sin, so God decided that instead of man dying, he would allow for a substitutionary sacrifice. God put in place the Law of sacrifice, where the killing of animals temporarily atoned for man's sin.

Until one day in the "fullness of time," when the world was ready, God made Himself the ultimate substitutionary sacrifice, and the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, was slaughtered so that you and I, who are sinful to the core, could live forever with God in spite of that sin. Now, we no longer need the blood of bulls and goats, but the blood of Jesus paid the penalty of every sin of every man.

Oh, what manner of love He has bestowed on us!

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Re: TinCup...


Sep 24, 2019, 11:21 AM

Thanks for finally answering my question instead of skirting it. I’ve read the entire New Testament and know much about the old.

It’s very interesting but the story scripture as a whole tells is something like a lord of the rings or Harry Potter novel. It’s fanciful and like you’ve done here when people point out the specific oddities and inconsistencies they try to harmonize them.

If you read anywhere else the creation story genesis tells you would immediately label it fiction.

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My friend, I skirted no question of yours.


Sep 24, 2019, 11:38 AM

To prove it, I am copying and pasting every single question you asked me, and copying and pasting the answer I gave.

1. Do you think it’s a sin to hunt for sport?

The topic of "killing animals for sport" is not addressed in Scripture, that I recall. It's certainly not forbidden.

2. So it seems that would make it sinful to enjoy something that is a product of the perfect creation turned bad, no?

God told man to eat the animals, so it is obviously not sinful.

3. Also, if god created everything, why would you want to kill something he created for sport?

I don't want to kill something for sport. It kinda grosses me out.


4. Why did man’s sin mean suddenly that man had to eat animals?

That was answered in my most recent post that you replied to.


My friend, just because you didn't like my answers, doesn't mean they weren't answers. I hope you will agree with me that I did not skirt anything. I pride myself on taking questions asked of me seriously and answering to the best of my ability.

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Re: My friend, I skirted no question of yours.


Sep 24, 2019, 11:52 AM

You kind of did skirt my overall point which was that it’s a contradiction for god to create everything good and then punish animals by making them food for humans all because of the sins of those humans. That makes no sense.

To further my point I’ve heard the argument that “god created them male and female” used to show that homosexuality and transsexuality is a sin. So basically that argument says that because those things go against the way god created and intended the world to be they are wrong.....

Well god created us and the animals to live at peace and live off the plants of the earth. So if you want to be consistent you have to say that it is sinful to kill animals even for food.

But of course this is just one of many contradictions you’ll find in Christianity. I could go on and on about several.

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I think when you say "contradiction"


Sep 24, 2019, 12:34 PM

What you mean is "I don't like this" or "I don't agree with this".

For example, you said: "it’s a contradiction for god to create everything good and then punish animals by making them food for humans all because of the sins of those humans" That is, simply, not any sort of contradiction. It's just something that, as you said, "makes no sense" to you. But it's not a contradiction.

A contradiction would be if God said in one place "do not kill animals" and in another place said "kill animals". The former statement is found nowhere in Scripture.

It's fine that you don't agree with what the Bible says: most don't, even many Christians. But that doesn't make it a contradiction.

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Re: I think when you say "contradiction"


Sep 24, 2019, 2:15 PM

I guess the best way to put it is they are contradictions of logic.

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thank God they didnt name it the Bill of Needs***


Sep 19, 2019, 10:54 PM [ in reply to To hunt for food or defend oneself or one's family.*** ]



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Re: Serious question


Sep 19, 2019, 11:42 PM [ in reply to Serious question ]


under what circumstance would a christian, and actual one like yourself, need a fire arm?


Because most people think that everything as we know will stay peachy and life will be roses and butterflies until the end. Some like to think ahead of possible worse case scenarios and think of necessary survival tools be it a rock, hammer, stick, knife, fishing line, water purifying systems, emergency supplies and other objects.

I’m not saying that any event will definitely occur during our lifetimes, but neither did the Jews, native Americans, or many other naive civilians throughout history who didn’t think it would happen to them and thinks the same way you do.

In my opinion, if you’ve never had to hunt for food and you’ve always relied on a “quick trip” to the grocery store to buy from the industrialized food market, then you shouldn’t have an opinion if someone is to own a firearm or not.

And yes, believe it or not there are still people in the U.S who do hunt for food or prefers not to consume products from your local “friendly neighborhood” Walmart. (You know, one of the big business you hate so much Balm).

In summary, you ask why would anyone need a firearm, I ask who are you or anyone else to tell someone what they can or can’t have to protect their families and use for survival purposes?


Message was edited by: Touch_The_Rock79


Message was edited by: Touch_The_Rock79


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Re: Serious question


Sep 20, 2019, 11:05 AM

What you’re saying is BS. Go to any small town in SC and you see mom and pop stores shut down because people drive 20-30 mins to the closest Walmart. Nobody in 2019 is hunting for survival and if they are, nobody is trying to take the weapons they use.

You don’t need a gun capable of killing a dozen people in 30 seconds to kill a deer

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