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Oculus Spirit [90707]
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History of Christmas: In 350 AD Pope Juius1 decreed the 25th day of Dec as The Day to Celebrate!
Dec 25, 2017, 2:44 PM
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..To Officially celebrate the birth of JESUS CHRIST.
??????
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CU Medallion [55644]
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Varsity [220]
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Legend [17857]
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The one MAIN Pagan influence most seem to overlook
Dec 25, 2017, 6:07 PM
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Constantine. When he converted his armies to Christianity he also converted Rome. Not that Rome converted because of a believing faith, but because they were told to. The Pagan priests also became Christian priests - with no knowledge or understanding, and mainly, NO faith in Jesus. They are the ones that brought the pagan rituals into Christianity. And the masses submitted because it suited their faith to do so.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Constantine never truly converted...
Dec 25, 2017, 9:05 PM
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He used Christianity for political purposes because it had become more popular in the Roman Empire. He used it to keep a grip on power and to wield that power.
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Legend [17857]
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Isn't that my point. There was No true conversion.
Dec 26, 2017, 11:07 AM
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But he did Baptize his armies in mass - believer or not. And he made Rome "Christian" in word only...bringing the Pagan rituals into Christianity.
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110%er [6851]
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Chosen to Cristianize a pagan holiday that celebrated
Dec 25, 2017, 2:57 PM
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the winter solstice.
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Mascot [22]
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Re: Chosen to Cristianize a pagan holiday that celebrated
Dec 25, 2017, 3:39 PM
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So did the original Christians celebrate Christmas? Isnt it in the Bible?
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Of course they did.
Dec 25, 2017, 3:47 PM
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They did it just like I do it. Every morning when I first wake I thank God for the give of life and life eternal which was bestowed upon me by the blood of His only son. Every night the last thing before I sleep is to thank Him again for my life and life eternal.
I can't imagine in my wildest dreams trying to pack all the thankfulness into one day when it will take me an eternity of worship and praise to thank Him.
The only Christian holiday mentioned in the new contract God wrote when He died on the cross is Easter, the Day He arose from the grave.
Anyone who has an issue with all this should take it up with God. I didn't write the Bible.
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CU Medallion [56701]
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and now somebody is going to tell you Easter is a
Dec 25, 2017, 3:57 PM
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also a Cristianized pagan holiday celebrating the vernal equinox. LOL.
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Mascot [22]
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Re: and now somebody is going to tell you Easter is a
Dec 25, 2017, 4:11 PM
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Yeah but what about the parable of the rabbits laying eggs?
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Athletic Dir [881]
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The very word “Easter” comes from
Dec 25, 2017, 10:33 PM
[ in reply to and now somebody is going to tell you Easter is a ] |
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the name for the pagan fertility festival, named for a pagan goddess, Eostre or such. It is heretical that we call it that in English and include the rabbit and eggs and candy. Everybody else, and the orthodox in english speaking countries, call it Pascha, Paques, etc instead.
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Mascot [22]
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Re: Of course they did.
Dec 25, 2017, 4:36 PM
[ in reply to Of course they did. ] |
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Yeah it seems like if it were required by Christians to celebrate Christmas it would have said in the Bible. The actual date is unknown and it was a pagan celebration of the solstice to the sun, like Easter (a pagan God of fertility) was used to make that account more palatable. Funny that Scriptural accounts indicate pagan celebrations are not approved in the bible.
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Oculus Spirit [93604]
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Not true.
Dec 25, 2017, 7:02 PM
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Easter was the day Christ arose from the grave. The previous corresponding historical event was the Passover during the Children of Israel's bondage in Egypt.
The Passover occurred as the final plague of the 7 which befell Egypt to convince the Pharaoh to release the Jewish people of their bondage. From then forward and throughout history the Children of Israel have celebrated the Feast of the Passover as written in the law in remembrance of their freedom.
I requested you take it up with God. It's His book and I am not obligated to defend or prove anything. If you want to understand try reading the book.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: Not true.
Dec 25, 2017, 8:54 PM
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Well I've read it (though I'll confess to skipping over some of the endless begettings) and it contains way too many obvious errors to have been His work.
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Orange Blooded [4968]
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Re: Not true.
Dec 25, 2017, 9:58 PM
[ in reply to Not true. ] |
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You're interchanging Israel and Jew. Read a little closer.
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Mascot [22]
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Re: Not true.
Dec 25, 2017, 10:45 PM
[ in reply to Not true. ] |
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Thanks for your reply. I have read the book and am sorry if I was not clear. Jesus definitely said to keep rememberance of him at the evening meal. No rabbits or eggs were there, though. The term "Easter" also was added later. Personally, I believe in what is written far more than what anyone says or has added. In the end, all we can do is our best, and I agree with you that ignorance is no excuse.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Orange Blooded [2397]
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Re: I forget, but i think the real day is
Dec 25, 2017, 4:19 PM
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There is alao a good argument for Christmas in September, based on the seven Jewish celebrations as required by God. I don't have the details at hand, however, I think we can be relatively certain that Christ wasn't born in December.
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110%er [6851]
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There is a very good arguement for early spring. Too cold
Dec 25, 2017, 4:28 PM
[ in reply to I forget, but i think the real day is ] |
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to travel 100 miles on foot in the winter. Plus, in the winter sheep were barned kept—not herded.
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All-In [27363]
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There is very,very little
Dec 25, 2017, 5:29 PM
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That we actually know and so very much we actually believe . Religion in all forms is a belief.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: I forget, but i think the real day is
Dec 26, 2017, 1:50 AM
[ in reply to I forget, but i think the real day is ] |
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There are serious problems with the census story in Luke. First, the census took place when Quirinius was governor of Syria, according to Luke, but he didn't become governor until 6 AD. Second, that's not how the census, which was for tax purposes, would have taken place. People didn't go to the census taker and self-report their wealth- the Roman official laid eyes on your property and then assessed the taxes.
Apologists aware of this problem assert (with no evidence) that Joseph must have owned property in Bethlehem. However, if that were the case, there would have been no need to rely on the kindness of strangers for a place to bed down. The census story was an artificial construct to get him from Nazareth to Bethlehem (city of David) to fulfill an OT prophesy.
The dating for the year of this miraculous and well attended birth is a complete mess because while Luke suggests it was no earlier than 6 AD, Matthew wrote of the "slaughter of the innocents" at the hand Herod- but he died in 4 BC. They can both be wrong but they can't both be right.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I forget, but i think the real day is
Dec 26, 2017, 1:56 PM
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That’s an outdated argument. Luke and the other gospel writers have been proven historically accurate time and time again and this is no exception.
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: I forget, but i think the real day is
Dec 26, 2017, 7:18 PM
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It's an old argument that has never been successfully refuted.
If you have evidence I've never seen, which is doubtful because I've read extensively on the subject, I'd love to see it.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Jesus was actually born in late spring/early summer...
Dec 25, 2017, 9:01 PM
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This is an example of a pagan holiday getting integrated into Christianity. Another one being switching the sabbath to Sunday, based off of pagan sun god worship.
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Walk-On [126]
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Re: Jesus was actually born in late spring/early summer...
Dec 25, 2017, 11:06 PM
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I'm pretty sure there is a passage that says God came to Marry in the sixth month so that would be around may for birth.
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Legend [17142]
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Re: History of Christmas: In 350 AD Pope Juius1 decreed the 25th day of Dec as The Day to Celebrate!
Dec 26, 2017, 11:29 AM
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http://crossexamined.org/really-census-time-caesar-augustus/
This is really good sourcing for some of the answers to the questions in this thread.
The most interesting seems to be that there were multiple censuses performed, Quirinius may very well have served in his position more than once which would explain some dating questions, and for a census evidence exists showing people were required to return to their places of birth hence Joseph taking himself and Mary to Bethelehem.
It doesnt definitively answer the questions posed but is a pretty fascinating testament to how the archaelogical evidence and testimony of Luke, my favorite gospel writer, interweave together. Luke was an amazing historian. I believe it is correct that he has been corroborated by archaelogical finds over 89 times so far, and has yet to be wrong on any actual citations and of the ones he was tbought to have been wrong on later archaelogical finds have supported his statements in his Gospel.
Message was edited by: clempson93
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: History of Christmas: In 350 AD Pope Juius1 decreed the 25th day of Dec as The Day to Celebrate!
Dec 26, 2017, 2:18 PM
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Read it. His entire argument hinges on Quirinius serving as governor of Syria twice and a second census that predates the known census and there is absolutely no evidence for that. His only "evidence" is there was another governor of Syria and Quirinius must therefore have been that unnamed person on the carving. Rubbish.
There is no more dishonest discipline in the world than Biblical Apologetics. It is not science or even history. Rather than adding up the evidence and reaching a conclusion, they start with the conclusion and select evidence to fit- often (as in this case) taking an unknown and postulating something improbable to further their case.
I am reminded of an episode of that biblical archaeology show on the increasingly ill-named History Channel in which someone found a very old large rusty nail and set out to "prove" it came from the cross of Jesus.
If there was actual conclusive evidence of biblical claims, what would be the point of "faith" and why would the world have more than one religion?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: History of Christmas: In 350 AD Pope Juius1 decreed the 25th day of Dec as The Day to Celebrate!
Dec 26, 2017, 3:22 PM
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“Rather than adding up the evidence and reaching a conclusion, they start with the conclusion and select evidence to fit- often (as in this case) taking an unknown and postulating something improbable to further their case.”
Sounds like the Jesus Seminar.
If you’re truly interested in the evidence for the reliability of the gospels check out a book by a real scholar like Craig Blomberg. Yes, he’s a conservative Christian, but all of his books are thorough and well cited. The History Channel is not a good source....
I’ve read a couple books from skeptical scholars and what always strikes me about their arguments is that they always assume everyone was being deceptive for reasons none other than to be killed or exiled.
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All-Pro [663]
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Re: History of Christmas: In 350 AD Pope Juius1 decreed the 25th day of Dec as The Day to Celebrate!
Dec 26, 2017, 8:27 PM
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Please believe me when I say I've heard all the arguments and just don't see the merit. I could direct you as well to sources I find more credible but I've really, really plowed this ground before, fought these battles til I'm just tired of tired specious apologetics.
We could go on for hours like Bill Nye and Ken Ham and change no minds. This is also not the place for this.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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any knowledge of why he picked Dec. history shows June is
Dec 26, 2017, 11:56 AM
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when they collected taxes in Bethlehem
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All-In [27363]
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Which calander
Dec 26, 2017, 7:00 PM
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Are you using? Julian? Gregorian? Some other?
I’m not sure when December was added to the calander so perhaps some of you know that.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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the 1 we use now***
Dec 26, 2017, 7:18 PM
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