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110%er [7173]
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5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 12:50 PM
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If the draft don't tell you.
If Hunter Renfrow don't tell you with how he DESTROYED bama's 5 star secondary.
If Tre Lamar and Shaq Smith having to RS and play less roles a few seasons don't tell you.
Two of the highest paid players in the league: Khalil Mack and Russell Wilson were two star guys coming out of H.S.
And finally my fellow Tigers fans, "if the mighty Clemson Tigers winning percentage doesn't tell you over the last few years" doesn't tell you - "you don't have to have a team full of 5 star players to win it all and win a bunch of games: nothing will"! Classes outside the top 10 beating the likes of Bama, Ohio St. N.Dame.
We have our share and I like that! Love that! But, it's not a guarantee all those players are going to be who you think! Many of them get overrated and often; Clemson doesn't even bother to offer. They would rather offer a 3 star they believe in.
This is only for those who apparently don't know how Clemson has been whooping backsides w/o a top ten class! Our Coaches know better than the rivals, 24/7, ESPN, etc of the world who can play. Who will work and continue developing into more than they are when being rated. So chill out a bit before asking crazy questions about why we didn't offer certain players. Our coaches know what they are doing!
Go Tigers!
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All-In [27366]
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Dabo's also lookin' for five-star character
May 15, 2019, 12:51 PM
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which is measured in the fourth quarter of big games.
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CU Guru [1903]
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There's 100 3 star players for every 1 5 star player
May 15, 2019, 12:56 PM
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The look at this 3 star who was an All American and look at this 5 star player who was a bust is silly.
What pct of 5 star players are All American?
What pct of 3 star players are All Americans?
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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You're still talking about exceptions to rules
May 15, 2019, 12:57 PM
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That statistics have proven. If you don’t recruit at an elite level, you’re not winning championships it’s called the Blue Chip Ratio.
1 out of every 5000 2 star players will become excellent, just like there will be 5 stars that don’t live up to their billing.
And you’re looking too much at the raw recruiting rankings while not factoring in our small class sizes over that stretch. Make no mistake, Clemson has been recruiting at an elite level for several years.
You’re not winning rings without Trevor, Tee, Ross, ETN, Wilkins, Dexter, Mullen, Terrell, Hyatt, etc.
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Orange Blooded [2759]
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Great poast
May 15, 2019, 1:33 PM
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There's two sides to this. Yeah, developing 2 and 3 stars into All-Conference/American players is great, but like you said: 4 and 5 star guys meeting and exceeding already high expectations is a huge part of it too.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Exactly
May 15, 2019, 1:40 PM
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“Our coaches are really good at evaluating and developing players” and “having more 4 and 5 stars is a good thing” are not mutually exclusive statements.
Taking 3 stars and developing them certainly isn’t a bad thing and the coaches have earned benefit of the doubt on who they deem worthy of a Clemson offer. But trying to get as many players that everyone agrees are very good is also a good thing.
The only thing that bugs me is the people that say “star rankings don’t matter, look at x,y, and z 2 stars who made it” when there is overwhelming statistical evidence that the rankings are indicative of team success. You still have to have the culture in place to develop those players but the science on it being better to get blue chip players than not is pretty clear.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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Re: You're still talking about exceptions to rules
May 15, 2019, 2:08 PM
[ in reply to You're still talking about exceptions to rules ] |
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Agree - Born .... The fact that only teams with a Blue Chip Ratio above 50% have won the NCG over the past several years is a solid fact!! You can fill out your team with good 2 and 3 stars - but you better have a solid core of Blue Chippers if you want to consistently play for all the marbles....
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: 5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 12:57 PM
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I saw this in another thread as well so it isn't just you but Tre Lamar did not redshirt.
He played a good many snaps as a freshman and then started his last 2 seasons.
Left after his junior year.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: 5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 1:42 PM
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I’ve seen it in at least 1,000 other threads.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: 5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 1:00 PM
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I don't disagree at all that our coaches know what they're doing. I trust their knowledge, and they can make whatever decisions they feel are best, they've earned that.
However, who has ever said that it's impossible for a 2 or 3 star guy to end up being a star, or that every single 4 or 5 star guy will end up living up to their hype?
I don't think anyone has ever said that you're guaranteed anything with a roster full of 4 and 5 star guys, but the facts are that your odds improve greatly with the more of those guys you have.
For every Hunter Renfrow there are hundreds of similar rated guys we've never heard of. For every Shaq Smith who doesn't play up to a 5 star rating there are several others who have like Watson, T. Lawrence, D. Lawrence, Wilkins, Hyatt, Sammy Watkins, CJ Spiller, etc...
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110%er [5072]
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Re: 5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 1:07 PM
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Also on Renfrow, I don't mean this to put him down at all, because the guy was amazing for us, and certainly played better than his HS rating.
However, it is a bit understated on how he benefited at times in defenses having to plan for guys like Mike Williams, Leggett, Higgins, Ross, etc...
Look at his first two games against Bama compared to the last two when Bama realized they needed to plan better for him. In the Sugar Bowl he had 5 catches for a total of 31 yards, and in the final game he had 2 catches for 10 yards.
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MVP [530]
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Re: 5* Hunters.**please read**
May 15, 2019, 1:23 PM
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Our Blue Chip Ratio was & is significantly higher than Notre Dame's-(Class rankings are flawed & antiquated, too much weight given to the size of a class, when ranking) BCR considers only 4*&5*s on 85 man roster
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Orange Blooded [2759]
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Development > Recruiting
May 15, 2019, 1:49 PM
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Sports Illustrated does an article every year where they re-rank the recruiting classes from four years prior. Here's Clemson's results the last few years:
2015: Original - 9, Rerank - 1
2014: Original - 14, Rerank - 1
2013: Original - 12, Rerank - 3
Ratings don't matter; development matters. Those SI articles prove how good Dabo and Co. are at creating college starters and future NFL players from high school kids, regardless of their stars.
BTW our 2016 class? Included Hyatt, Wilkins, Bryant and Ferrell among others, so you tell me how that one gets re-ranked lol
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CU Guru [1414]
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Maybe, Or just maybe our coach is that good, Think of...
May 15, 2019, 2:03 PM
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...What he could do with the #1 recruiting class. He may not lose a game for 4 years.
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All-TigerNet [13031]
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Yeah, that's just not true. You can't cherry pick a few
May 15, 2019, 2:35 PM
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examples of walk-ons or developmental guys that became great players or 5*s that became busts. That's just not how statistics work. I can just as easily look at many of our other 5* signees and point to how they became program-changing studs.
According to the list on 247, these are the 5* players we signed from 2009-2018
Trevor Lawrence - stud
Dexter Lawrence - stud
Xavier Thomas - stud
KJ Henry - hasn't played yet
Tony Steward - bit of a disappointment
Sammy Watkins - stud
Deon Cain - not top tier, but very good
Stephone Anthony - took him a year or two, but he was a stud by the time he left
Tee Higgins - stud
Mitch Hyatt - stud
Jackson Carman - hasn't played yet, but likely a starter in 2019
Christian Wilkins - stud
Derion Kendrick - looks promising as both a WR and CB right now
Hunter Johnson - wasn't as good as TL, but the jury is still out
Mack Alexander - stud
Tajh Boyd - stud
Higher 4* players:
Tavien Feaster - very good
Deshaun Watson - stud
Charone Peak - solid, had a hard time staying healthy
Mike Bellamy - stud while on the field, but had off-field issues
Justyn Ross - stud
AJ Terrell - stud
Kyler McMichael - hasn't played much yet
Tre Lamar - very good
Trayvon Mullen - stud
Carlos Watkins - very good
Artavis Scott - stud
Germone Hopper - just OK, maybe a little disappointing
Ray-Ray McCloud - very good
Shaq Smith - bust
Maybe like 5 or 6 guys on that list didn't really pan out. The rest of them formed the backbone of our rise to prominence and eventual national title teams.
Also notice how many of those 5* guys were absolute studs and how many were already really darn good as true freshmen. Out of the 16 5* guys listed above, 8 of them either started or made significant contributions as true freshman. Only 2 didn't really pan out, and I'm not even sure it's fair to call Hunter Johnson a bust right now. All we really know is that he wasn't as good as Trevor Lawrence.
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All-In [40864]
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You start picking out 2* NFL starters and I'll start
May 15, 2019, 2:40 PM
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picking out 2* players that didn't make it to the NFL and we will see who runs out first.
Oh and Russel Wilson was a three star player that was in the top 25 at his position.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: You start picking out 2* NFL starters and I'll start
May 15, 2019, 6:41 PM
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The BCR is going to be thrown off naturally isn't it? Most of those dudes will go to a P5 school. I say that to say, "Boise St" could have played with and beat anybody when he was just landing 2 and 3 star talent. The only reason he never won it(affecting that 50%) is b/c they were a lowly Mountain West team(not really saying it for affect).
This from 2015 doesn't have Mack and Matthews. Or the kid from SC State.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/6/22/8743525/nfl-two-star-recruits
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110%er [6662]
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Re: You start picking out 2* NFL starters and I'll start
May 15, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Something lost in this debate. If Dabo and staff can take a bunch of 3 and 4 stars with a few 5-stars thrown in to win 2 of 3 national championships, think of what he can do with a class full of 4 and 5 stars!!!!!!!!!
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110%er [7173]
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Re: You start picking out 2* NFL starters and I'll start
May 15, 2019, 6:47 PM
[ in reply to Re: You start picking out 2* NFL starters and I'll start ] |
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Also like to add: re-read my post! I never said, "we don't have studs"! Or that you could have a team full of unrated to 3 star talented players and win. I said, "we get more than our fair share"! If not in the OP then; somewhere else on tnet. Pretty sure, I acknowledged the fact we aren't starving for talented players the last few years!
My thing is the people who act as though; when Georgia or Alabama get more 5 star players than lil ole Clemson; we should just hand them the trophy! Those people!
Not the case at all! We whipped that behind with a class that was "INITIALLY RATED" outside the top 10. Whatever metrics they used, it was not the top class at the time. Some people - the people the OP was typed for - freaked out about it! This is a message to them. Some of the data on 2 star talent may be exceptions; but serves the purpose that "those folks put to much stock into initial service based rankings"!
More of a shout out to the superior eye for talent our coaches have!
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