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So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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Hall of Famer [24152]
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So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
4
Oct 4, 2023, 8:01 AM
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after going out of bounds gives Tigers a first down. However, when he slides before gaining a first down and is hit late, Tigers are not awarded a first down? Am I missing something here?
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110%er [7971]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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7
Oct 4, 2023, 8:03 AM
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I "think" the out of bounds play was third down. The slide was 4th.
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Hall of Famer [24152]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
3
Oct 4, 2023, 8:12 AM
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Didn’t think the down mattered. Guess it does, though, eh? Thanks.
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CU Guru [1432]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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Oct 4, 2023, 8:37 AM
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because when he started to slide the play was dead on 4th down meaning we had already lost possession when the penalty happened.
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All-TigerNet [10965]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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Oct 4, 2023, 8:56 AM
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I am not a fan of spotting the QB progress to where he starts the slide. IMO, the ball should be spotted where his butt hits the ground. In all likelihood, the QB would have made it to where his butt goes down but without further risk of injury.
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All-In [29036]
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It makes sense
4
Oct 4, 2023, 9:05 AM
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If he can't (by rule) be hit while sliding then his forward progress should be considered stopped as well.
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Heisman Winner [134736]
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All-TigerNet [12879]
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Orange Blooded [4851]
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All-In [29036]
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All of that is what happened
Oct 4, 2023, 11:35 AM
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It's just that once the play is over (on 4th down) and the yardage is not gained then the ball is turned over.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
2
Oct 4, 2023, 9:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit ] |
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Down matters how the penalty is enforced. Third down, it gives offense yards. 4th down, it backs up the offense of the other team when they take the field.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Probably, one 3rd down vs 4th down and change of possession.
3
Oct 4, 2023, 8:03 AM
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Or did you has something else in mind?
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Orange Blooded [2991]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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Oct 4, 2023, 8:10 AM
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3rd down vs 4th down. Thinking back to the slide, I think that call has more to do with the new rule of being down when you start to slide. Still a strange precedent that is set where you can head hunt a QB “after a play” on 4th down and there’s no penalty defensively.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began...
4
Oct 4, 2023, 8:13 AM
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the penalty, 15 yards, was assessed.
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All-Pro [672]
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Re: It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began...
2
Oct 4, 2023, 8:25 AM
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It’s definitely inconsistent with the other situations, but it does make the most sense to turn the ball over. So, he slides, it’s immediately a turnover, 1st and 10 the other way; the late hit, now it’s 1st and 25. Doesn’t change much about that game but it would make more sense than giving the defense the ball and fresh set of downs.
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Orange Blooded [2991]
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Re: It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began...
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Oct 4, 2023, 8:36 AM
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Maybe make it a loss of down? I mean starting your drive 1st and 25 isn’t ideal either.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began...
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Oct 4, 2023, 9:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began... ] |
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It wouldn't be 1st and 25. Just 1st and 10, 15 yards behind where the ball would have been spotted had the penalty not occurred (succeeding spot). The offense will never start a new series of downs on anything other than 1st and 10. They don't have the option of being penalized and put "behind the sticks" until the ready for play whistle is blown prior to 1st down (the next play).
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All-Pro [672]
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Re: It wasn't 4th down any longer as soon as the slide began...
Oct 4, 2023, 11:47 AM
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I know it wouldn’t be 1st and 25 under current rules, but I think something like that would give you best of both worlds. The ball should turnover, but the turnover is so much more beneficial than the penalty from a point differential standpoint that the 15yd penalty becomes a “free penalty.” Given they are already creating a special case 4th down deadball foul condition, I think it should be revisited to either align more with 1st through 3rd, although I think that’s too beneficial for the offense (but maybe converting a 3rd down on a deadball foul is just as advantageous for offense) or they need to apply the penalty after the chains are set.
Either of those would be closer to fair than the current rules provide for. Regardless of how they change it they need to change it.
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Orange Blooded [2991]
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All-TigerNet [12879]
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All-TigerNet [12256]
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Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line
3
Oct 4, 2023, 8:16 AM
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of gain.
That Duke targeting call was among the dumbest ACC officiating calls we have seen in a while. Because the idiot official declared the targeting occurred "after the play" the ball had technically already turned over on downs to Duke.
The fact is - Klubnik got crushed just as he was entering his slide and I'm quite sure no whistle had been blown to end the play when it actually occurred. I have never seen any targeting call ruled as an "after the play" penalty. I've also never seen a change of possession on downs for a late hit out of bounds which by it's very definition occurs "after the play"...
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Walk-On [138]
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Re: Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line
1
Oct 4, 2023, 8:25 AM
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I agree. You can tell the official was very partial.
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CU Guru [1045]
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Re: Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line
3
Oct 4, 2023, 8:50 AM
[ in reply to Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line ] |
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The whistle blowing doesn't matter. The rule that was put in last year states that as soon as the runner begins his slide, the play is automatically dead, whistle or not.
You can have targeting any time, even after the play. The reason you have never seen this is because a) the slide rule is only two years old, and b) most of the time on 4th down, teams are either punting or running short yardage plays, so you really don't have an opportunity for targeting to occurred, at least in a situation where it would affect possession.
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110%er [6474]
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Re: Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line
2
Oct 4, 2023, 9:05 AM
[ in reply to Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line ] |
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Sliding is a unique situation. The begin of the slide ends the play. Being hit a fraction of a second after the slide is a dead ball foul. Only matters on fourth down.
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All-TigerNet [12879]
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Re: Difference was 3rd down vs 4th down being short of the line
Oct 4, 2023, 10:10 AM
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Yep, you could say, the beginning of the slide is the whistle. Thus dead ball penalty.
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Trainer [33]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
2
Oct 4, 2023, 8:24 AM
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Yeah unfortunately in the Duke game, it was the correct call the way the rules are written. Hopefully in the off-season, they take a look at that and deem any hit on a sliding qb part of the play and not a dead ball foul; similar to a facemask or horse collar tackle.
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CU Guru [1372]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
3
Oct 4, 2023, 9:20 AM
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Blame Kenny Pickett for the rule with his fake slide!,
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All-In [29036]
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This rule was in place way before that
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Oct 4, 2023, 9:40 AM
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The Kenny Pickett rule was put into place as a clarification to the previous rule. It just clarified that when the QB "appeared" to slide or faked that he was about to slide then it would be ruled he slid.
The rule that you were considered down at the point you slid has been around for a while. I remember it biting TL in his freshman year when slid short of a first down.
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Orange Blooded [2156]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
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Oct 4, 2023, 9:34 AM
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We can all thank Kenny Pickett for this mess...
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All-In [29036]
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Nope
1
Oct 4, 2023, 9:42 AM
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He is responsible for an addition to the rule that clarified that when it appeared a QB was going to slide (or faked a slide) it would be considered as him sliding, but the slide rule has been around longer than that.
I remember TL being rule short his freshman year when he started his slide early.
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Orange Blooded [4306]
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Clemson should leave the ACC based of officiating alone
Oct 4, 2023, 9:44 AM
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no holdings have been called for 3-5 seasons now
and every time we defend a pass it's pass interference
every time we can't catch a pass, it's not pass interference
we never get targeting called against us time after time
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CU Guru [1351]
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When a QB begins slides, the play is dead where he initiates
Oct 4, 2023, 10:22 AM
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the slide. #2 was short of the line to gain, it was 4th down; therefore, the play is over and is a turnover on downs. Then the 15 yard penalty is assessed on the team receiving the ball.
The play you are referring to was a down other than 4th down, so Clemson maintained possession and then the penalty is assessed.
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All-American [570]
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Re: So, CK2 goes out of bounds short of 1st down, but late hit
Oct 4, 2023, 10:24 AM
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Yes this situation happened to us before on 4th down.
As a general rule I would coach players is to never slide on 4th down. If the play is big enough to go for it on 4th down then its big enough to take a hit.
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