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Orange Blooded [2586]
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In Job, God and Satan converse about Job for a while
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May 2, 2024, 9:08 AM
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Is there any explanation to this or other times where there are no witnesses to the conversation? How did the writer know of a conversation between God and satan? Is that ever explained or is there an answer for it?
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All-In [47929]
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Job is a book of wisdom literature, it is not
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May 2, 2024, 9:16 AM
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a history book
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Orange Blooded [2586]
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interesting, I didn't realize it was widely accepted as such
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May 2, 2024, 9:24 AM
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Thank you
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Does that mean it didn't happen? Or that it is just a story that is told to make
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May 2, 2024, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to Job is a book of wisdom literature, it is not ] |
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a point and teach a lesson, but we are not supposed to believe it really happened, and it doesn't matter if it did or didn't?
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Orange Blooded [2586]
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I grew up assuming this story was real and not just an allegory
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May 2, 2024, 9:52 AM
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whether or not it did happen is pretty important in my opinion
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CU Medallion [58713]
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That was what I was taught as well - that the BIble was the literal inerrant
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May 2, 2024, 11:59 AM
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word of God, and that the earth was created in 7 24-hour days just as described in Genesis and Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden and talked to a serpent and a man named Noah actually put two of every kind of animal on a big boat so that life on earth could continue for the chosen few after God was unhappy with what he had created and destroyed it all. At no point was I ever told that any of that probably didn't happen and was just myth used to teach spiritual truths and lessons.
It is abundantly clear to me that the Bible is a mixture of myth and fact, and it is not the literal or inerrant word of an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God as I was taught, and as many of my friends still somehow believe. It seems to me that whether or not that is the case is extremely important too, and obviously, most people on all sides believe it is as well.
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All-In [47929]
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my understanding is that the
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May 2, 2024, 10:39 AM
[ in reply to Does that mean it didn't happen? Or that it is just a story that is told to make ] |
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Ancient Hebrews understood it to be a story and not a historical account. My understanding is that most modern Jewish scholars share this viewpoint as well. Likewise, the Roman Catholic church, the Eastern Orthodox church, and Mainline Protestant churches have the same understanding as our Hebrew and Jewish friends.
I further understand that Fundamentalist Baptists have a different understanding and consider Job and most biblial text to be inerrant histories.
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All-In [30000]
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Re: my understanding is that the
May 2, 2024, 12:08 PM
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Yes, I found this is some random searches.
'Job is a paradigm (“He never was or existed,” says a talmudic rabbi, “except as an example”). He personifies every pious man who, when confronted with an absurd disaster, is too honest to lie in order to justify God.
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Hmmmmmmm . . . "Fundamentalist Baptists" makes it sound almost like a
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May 2, 2024, 12:33 PM
[ in reply to my understanding is that the ] |
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smaller, non-mainstream sect, while in fact, the Southern Baptist Convention, in which I was raised, is the largest protestant denomination in the U.S., and is as mainstream as it gets. I was taught in this church that the Bible is the infallable word of God, and was never, ever told that a lot of it is probably myth or allegory. Never. I still have good friends raised in the Southern Baptist church, as well as Presbyterian and Lutheran and Methodist and other "fundamentalist" churches who believe the Bible is the literal word of God, containing no myth, but all historical events.
From the Southern Baptist Website:
The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) holds a profound reverence for the Bible, viewing it as the inspired and infallible Word of God. Southern Baptists affirm the divine inspiration of the Bible, acknowledging its origins in the revelation of God to human authors. This foundational belief underscores the belief that the Scriptures are not merely human writings but are divinely inspired, carrying the authority and truth of God's message to humanity. The doctrine of biblical inerrancy is also integral to Southern Baptist views on the Bible, emphasizing the absence of error or contradiction in the original manuscripts of the biblical texts.
Nowhere do they allow for allegory or myth. They don't exactly deny it, but they avoid mention of it altogether as an official position, and simply stick with "inerrancy" and "inspired word of God" and "abscence of error or contradiction".
It is my understanding that most Bible scholars understand the Bible as filled with myth and allegory and contradictions. I think a lot of "believers" are either not aware of that, or don't agree with it.
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All-In [30000]
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Re: Hmmmmmmm . . . "Fundamentalist Baptists" makes it sound almost like a
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May 2, 2024, 1:01 PM
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The question of God aside, I see the Bible as akin to historical fiction. Take 'Gone with the Wind' as an example.
Atlanta does exist. And the Civil War did happen, but there is no Tara Plantation, and there is no Scarlett O'Hara. Atlanta did burn, but Rhett never pushed a baby carriage around.
So the story is a mix of real and fictional events. I'd say Jesus did exist, and Job didn't. Moses did exist, and Jonah didn't. Jerusalem does exist, Eden, maybe not. Sorting through every event, every location, and every person in the story is on a case-by-case basis.
And the whole thing, the whole Bible, is one composite view of God by a certain people, at a certain time, in a certain place, and not the only view. There's a whole other world beyond the Middle East from 1250ish BCE till 30ish AD.
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Ed Zachary!***
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May 2, 2024, 1:53 PM
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CU Medallion [58713]
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And I believe it contains many spiritual truths and great wisdom that is not
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May 2, 2024, 1:57 PM
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in any way dependent upon literal inerrancy.
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All-In [30000]
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Re: And I believe it contains many spiritual truths and great wisdom that is not
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May 2, 2024, 2:49 PM
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Absolutely.
To me, every religion, in every time, and in every place, is man's attempt to explain what he senses, but cannot otherwise convey or explain. The simple feeling that "there is something more...something beyond one's physical senses and limitations."
And that effort to understand, those attempts to figure it out, are religions. And they are all clues to what the answer may be. And thus, they are all valuable, and all have wisdom, and insight, in their own ways.
I've used the example before, but the best analogy I have is Mr. McBeeVee on the Andy Griffith show. Opie knows he's there, but he can only explain Mr.McBeeVee in childish terms that no one else understands. As a child, those are his limitations. Every religion is doing the same thing...trying to explain it, using the inadequate tools of man.
 
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Spot on! Great example!***
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May 2, 2024, 4:47 PM
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Hall of Famer [24531]
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Reincarnation is real
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May 3, 2024, 9:54 AM
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In a thread about Job, his two buddies are still talking.
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All-In [47929]
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the SBC is not a Mainline Protestant Denomination
May 3, 2024, 8:22 AM
[ in reply to Hmmmmmmm . . . "Fundamentalist Baptists" makes it sound almost like a ] |
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the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church (PC USA), the Lutheran (ELCA) (among others) are Mainline denominations that do not share the view you attribute to the SBC. No, each of these denominations have Evangelical siblings that likely share the fundamentalist perspective and maybe that is where your friends attend
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Orange Blooded [2152]
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Well, I think Smiling is saying....
May 3, 2024, 10:01 AM
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that the SBC is a very large & influential church, which makes them mainstream in a sense. They're extremely conservative in certain things, and I'm not one of them. But there's a lot of them. I know in the South, the SBC is all over the place.
They're definitely not "mainline". But they're "mainstream" to a point, I think.
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Here's the truth ...
May 3, 2024, 4:57 PM
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The vast majority of Christians in the U.S. are protestant. The largest protestant denomination in the U.S. is Baptist. As of 2022, the SBC had over 47,000 churches and 13 million members in the U.S.
As far as any religious views can be mainstream, it is farcical to suggest that Southern Baptists are not part of that mainstream. IF ... if we say that Southern Baptists are not mainstream, then we can't say the views of any religion or denomination are mainstream.
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Orange Blooded [2152]
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Also, the SBC is representative of a larger evangelical movement....
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May 4, 2024, 10:23 AM
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in the US which has similar views on the bible. So, considering the number of followers within that larger umbrella, it is mainstream.
Earlier, you mentioned Methodists, Presbyterians, and Lutherans. I think within those traditions, you have to split between Mainline and the non-Mainline. The mainline versions of those denominations are less likely to agree with the SBC on certain things.
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CU Medallion [58713]
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Agreed - many mainline, mainstream churches do not embrace the Bible as
May 4, 2024, 1:42 PM
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the literal, inerrant word of God. My point remains, however, that many do, and they are not necessarily outside of the mainstream, as such a belief is extremely common.
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CU Guru [1022]
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Re: In Job, God and Satan converse about Job for a while
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May 2, 2024, 12:09 PM
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Isn't the answer obvious?
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All-In [30000]
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Re: In Job, God and Satan converse about Job for a while
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May 2, 2024, 12:32 PM
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There are other cases where an omniscient narrator tells the story in the Bible.
Genesis is just one example. As I mentioned in another post, the Bible doesn't say God created a scribe on Day 0 so that the scribe could record the events that happened on Days 1-7. The events are just recorded without explanation.
That's why it's so important to see the Bible as a library. Lots of authors, lots of literary methods. Sometimes the narrative is sweepingly grandiose: "In the beginning...",
and sometimes it's extraordinarily detailed "...in the third year of the reign of Darius, on the 4th day of the 5th month..."
In terms of content, Job might be the earliest Hebrew example of the question of Evil...why does a good God let evil exist? It's quite advanced, and I'm not even sure there is an Egyptian or Meso equivalent questioning.
And it might be the most pointed questioning, too. Job isn't suffering from random acts of evil. God specifically allowed Satan to torture the guy. So that allowance is directly on God himself.
It's one of the more surprising books in the Bible, imo, along with Ecclesiastes, and really challenges how one defines and understands God, and good, and evil, in the Judeo-Christian context.
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CU Guru [1022]
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Re: In Job, God and Satan converse about Job for a while
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May 2, 2024, 12:34 PM
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Deuteronomy also records Moses death even though he’s traditionally considered the author.
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